DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
Indeed I do. Hate capitalism, that is.
Student Debt and Responses
- Thread starter Wargamer08
- Start date
Indeed I do. Hate capitalism, that is.
So what economic theory do you follow?
I will stay by saying no offense to those that have student loans.
I think if someone is going to complain about student loans, and ask for it to be repaid, they should use one of the many ways to do it without asking the government.
Number one way?
Military. People should be able to join the military and pay it off if they want
That is the only way I think people should get student loans.
I and many others I know, worked thier way through school, having no loans, or had scholarships.
One should not pull out student loans unless they have a valid way to pay it off once they are done.
Not hope to pay it off. A definent way
I think if someone is going to complain about student loans, and ask for it to be repaid, they should use one of the many ways to do it without asking the government.
Number one way?
Military. People should be able to join the military and pay it off if they want
That is the only way I think people should get student loans.
I and many others I know, worked thier way through school, having no loans, or had scholarships.
One should not pull out student loans unless they have a valid way to pay it off once they are done.
Not hope to pay it off. A definent way
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
I don't really claim an 'economic theory'. I guess Third Position if you held a gun to my head. The important thing is ordering the political-economy to the common good and the final end of man.
Third Position's economy is the same as communism's economy. The difference is social policy. So yeah, it seems I was right when I said that smelled of communism.
Third Position - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
ShieldWife
Marchioness
One issue here is that when it comes to student debt, the government regulates it and, in fact., has special rules which apply to student debt and no other forms of debt. Actually, any kinds of enforcement of payment of debt requires government involvement, so we can't go with pure free market on any of this.
Another issue is that taking on this outrageous debt is so heavily encouraged to such young people that it's almost not even a choice, at least not a well informed choice. You can have a person who is 17 or 18 who agrees to take on $100,000 in debt, one that that follow them forever without even bankruptcy discharging it, to get a degree which is nearly worthless. A young high school senior is so heavily propagandized about the importance of college that they are essentially tricked into taking on this debt.
Also, with regard to higher education, the institutions themselves (including funding, accreditation, and licensing) are so heavily tied up with government money and regulation that I would contend that nothing involving them is remotely free market.
I think it's unfair to look at college loans that are enforced by the government with special laws to go to a university which receives public funds, to get a degree that has value because the government requires it in order to practice a certain profession, and say that its the free market for students to have to pay up on those loans. I agree that just paying off the student debt is extremely problematic, but the game certainly is rigged.
Usury is a sin. Hating the sin of golden chains of debt does not make one a 'commie'.
Usury FAQ, or, money on the Pill
“Are we not ashamed to pay usury? Not contented within the limits of our own means, we do by giving pledges and entering into contracts, fabricate the yoke of our slavery.” – Plutarch We exho…zippycatholic.wordpress.com
Well, for many centuries the Western world banned or nearly banned usury. Were they complete fools to do so? I don't think so. If we look at modern America, we have virtually a usocracy where banks, Wallstreet, the Federal Reserve, and other related institutions have insane amounts of power over the nation while essentially producing nothing. We have an economy where consumption is the defining characteristic of success, which has all sorts of destructive effects on our culture and on politics as well.
Largo
Well-known member
You sell loaves of bread for $5. I show up at your store, say that I don't have $5, but if you give me a loaf of bread, I'll come back with $5 in a year from now.Usury is a sin. Hating the sin of golden chains of debt does not make one a 'commie'.
Usury FAQ, or, money on the Pill
“Are we not ashamed to pay usury? Not contented within the limits of our own means, we do by giving pledges and entering into contracts, fabricate the yoke of our slavery.” – Plutarch We exho…
Do you accept?
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
It depends on the situation. Circumstances always matter.
The fact you can't tell the difference tells me all I need to know.
Airedale260
Well-known member
Well, there are those of us who aren’t able to join due to medical issues -I tried but as soon as “asthma exacerbated by allergies” came up it was “Thanks for coming in but LOLNope.” So while I agree in principle, it’s not a silver bullet.
Now, I have private loans (I went to college before Obama was president) and the repayment schemes that have been pushed are BS, but I am trying to just pay them off. I am, however, going to be extremely pissed if “forgiveness” is passed because I’ll be screwed in several ways.
The real problem is that we need to hold schools accountable for how they spend money. Maybe linking federal grants to tuition levels (in other words, large grants or higher tuition -you get one or the other but not both) and also penalizing schools with large endowments that have high tuition.
One of the models of all this is Purdue -they’ve actually managed to *lower* tuition because they actually pay attention to what works and what doesn’t, keeping academic standards high and don’t screw their students financially. For that one can thank Mitch “The Knife” Daniels, former governor who knows a thing or two about fiscal responsibility...
Largo
Well-known member
That you have to waffle like that is an answer enough. The answer for any rational person is "Hell no." The only time anyone might say yes is if that person is someone who is part of their close social circle....and you're not going to have much of an economy if the only people you're doing business with is part of your social circle.
Fact is, time is money. I'd much rather have a million dollars now than a million dollars when I'm 80. Usury is simply accounting for that reality.
This is wrong. One of the few reasons government exists is the enforcement of contracts.
They didn't ban usury, they found ways to do it while calling it something else, or by borrowing from Jews (who weren't prohibited). This then led to antisemitism when jews were blamed for others being in debt, when they agreed to the debt.
This nonanswer is hilarious. Please, elaborate how the fascist Third Position has a different economy than communism. Cause I just cited a source that says they are pretty damn similar.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
Yes exactly. If it is a stranger, hell no. If it someone in my community I know and trust? I am obligated as a matter of charity.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
Wikipedia is not a source.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
The government is required to enforce payment of debts, at least as our system exists now it would be. I could see an argument that any industry so heavily regulated and enforced by the power of the government isn't a free market. I guess you could say that even just having a buyer and a seller has the shadow of government enforcement, since the buyer can't just steal the product that they want, but the interaction between banks and the government (not to mention student loans, monetary policy and related issues) is so heavily regulated by the government as well as the worth of college degrees that it seems crazy to say its a free market. I'd actually put health care into that category as well.
I think a long lasting problem that the right has had in America is worshipping free markets on a topic where the "free market" benefits huge left leaning government connected industries while ignoring the massive amounts of laws, regulations, taxation, and enforcement which makes those institutions and the system they exist in possible.
What could student loans be like, even higher education as a whole, if the government didn't privilege those institutions in uncountable ways?
They didn't ban usury, they found ways to do it while calling it something else, or by borrowing from Jews (who weren't prohibited). This then led to antisemitism when jews were blamed for others being in debt, when they agreed to the debt.[/QUOTE]
Not only Jews, but yet Jews doing it was a loophole of sorts, since in many cases usury wasn't legally banned just prohibited by Christians. Maybe the problem is that anybody was allowed to do it, not that Christians weren't.
That is an oversimplification though. There are all sorts of economic advantages to usury that may have made much of Western civilization's economic prosperity possible. Then again, we are becoming slaves to the big corporations and the usurers who control the world's money supply. I think it might be time we reevaluate how much usury we should have in our world.
Largo
Well-known member
A community of how many people? Can't be more than a few hundred people, because that's about the largest number of people that you can actually know. So great, you'll be a member of some peasant village of a couple hundred people, the equivalent of those Mexican peasant zapatistas or whatever.
Even if you're going to claim that this is somehow morally superior because God decrees it or whatever? You will be outcompeted if not outright conquered by the much larger states which can work together because they can cooperate with a much larger number of people.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
This is not an argument, seeing as all I advocate for is what our people have done in the past. Capitalism and Usury are false gods.
As a current full time university student (Bachelor of International Business), I feel that canceling student debt is just plain idiotic.
Adults made these choices, not children.
You make a choice, you take the consequence, good or bad.
The big thing here is the degree you choose.
A useless degree like gender studies or whatnot is an obvious trap, and STEM (though good) has been oversaturated for years.
If you don't have the brains to choose the right degree, then you really shouldn't be going to university in the first place.
Virtually all my high school classmates went for STEM or a useless degree.
Only a select few like me and a couple of my friends went for business, economics, or something open ended and sensible.
On the subject of the debt itself.
My parents saved up enough money for the first year and half of the second year.
I have a scholarship that cuts down $2000 a year.
The rest of the money I plan to earn through working and internships (there are a shit ton of good business/economics internships and if you do well, then it becomes a job waiting for you once you graduate from university).
In Canada, there are also government internships, which also pay pretty well and give you invaluable experience.
Sometimes, I wonder why I don't connect with people my age (zoomers) very well. . .
Adults made these choices, not children.
You make a choice, you take the consequence, good or bad.
The big thing here is the degree you choose.
A useless degree like gender studies or whatnot is an obvious trap, and STEM (though good) has been oversaturated for years.
If you don't have the brains to choose the right degree, then you really shouldn't be going to university in the first place.
Virtually all my high school classmates went for STEM or a useless degree.
Only a select few like me and a couple of my friends went for business, economics, or something open ended and sensible.
On the subject of the debt itself.
My parents saved up enough money for the first year and half of the second year.
I have a scholarship that cuts down $2000 a year.
The rest of the money I plan to earn through working and internships (there are a shit ton of good business/economics internships and if you do well, then it becomes a job waiting for you once you graduate from university).
In Canada, there are also government internships, which also pay pretty well and give you invaluable experience.
Sometimes, I wonder why I don't connect with people my age (zoomers) very well. . .
Largo
Well-known member
When in the past did they do that? What is this glorious golden age you want to return to?
Sure, people lived in shitty peasant villages where they never travelled more than a few miles from their birthplace and only knew the same dozen or maybe a hundred people in their lives. And what happened to those villages? They were outcompeted or conquered by larger groups which could better coordinate effectively. And here you are, wanting to do the exact same thing and thinking that it's going to change. I think we all know what to call that.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
That is important, but how is a 17 or 18 year old right out of high school supposed to know what the economy and job market are going to be like in a decade from now? Even experts have trouble making predictions like that and these kids are being misinformed by the majority of authority figures in their lives. Also, even if they go for "sensible degrees" at higher rates, then those degrees are likely to become saturated as well.