The Right and White Nationalism - An annoying cancer

I think we have different ideas of liberals, you're thinking of bleeding heart leftists who would happily throw individual liberties under the bus for their collective socialism, while I'm thinking of people who want to shrink government for individual rights, as a large central government is prone to tyranny.

It's not that large groups of liberals don't want smaller government, it's that liberal movements as a whole tend to keep moving towards tyranny for the sake of compassion. They're basically Anakin Skywalkering this shit. The more compassionate the liberal, the more likely they're going to want a soft-hearted tyranny.
 
I think this is so confusing due to US left taking over "liberalism" as a political flag which used to represent quite a separate idea, one closer to what we now call libertarianism - until leftists have started to infiltrate all the liberal parties and pushing for more care, fairness and equality of outcomes over liberty. Which is unavoidable, because where there's liberty there can't be equality of outcomes, as free people will make different decisions with unequal outcomes.

Leftists are basically radical liberals. The problem I see is that they tend to snare liberals by shaming them into following them.
 
Leftists are basically radical liberals. The problem I see is that they tend to snare liberals by shaming them into following them.
By the metric of value priorities, libertarians should be considered radical liberals, as they care about liberty above all else.
Why do we call people who care about "harm avoidance" above all else, including liberty, "liberals"?
 
By the metric of value priorities, libertarians should be considered radical liberals, as they care about liberty above all else.
Why do we call people who care about "harm avoidance" above all else, including liberty, "liberals"?

Incorrect.

Libertarians favor liberty above all other morality. In fact, they actually tend to be on the low side in all the other points of morality, with compassion being the lowest of all their traits.
 
Incorrect.

Libertarians favor liberty above all other morality. In fact, they actually tend to be on the low side in all the other points of morality, with compassion being the lowest of all their traits.
Exactly, that's pretty damn radical attitude for liberty.
Meanwhile the supposed liberals don't like liberty that much, they care about compassion/harm avoidance more.
 
Exactly, that's pretty damn radical attitude for liberty.
Meanwhile the supposed liberals don't like liberty that much, they care about compassion/harm avoidance more.

Friedman being willing to back Pinochet because he viewed the Chilean Junta as the best way to keep the market free and thus materially liberate Chile is a rather cynical example of that.
 
thats leftism not liberalism, being a liberal means smaller government and fewer controls on the people. leftism is bigger government and full on communism as California wants.

Well, that's the thing: liberalism does not mean smaller government. For the favorite example of this, did government get smaller, or larger because of civil rights? Does stopping the mayor and his sons and cousins who are all the important heads of industry in the town from colluding to divvy up profits in the town between them take a bigger government or smaller government?

Lots of liberalism involves centralizing and enlarging government power. Its how you can have a "liberal" absolute monarch, because he spends his rule stamping on the petty aristocracy and forcing conformity to broader standards. Or in modern days the EU and UN are not inherently anti liberal even though both have explicit goals of building larger states.

It one of the issues I have with modern liberals/libertarians, since they often pay lip service to the idea of local government, but in any situation where the central power can claim to be making things more liberal they often seem to default to increasing liberalism at the expense of local rule. Hell, I really don't know where the line of local rule is. It seems an underdeveloped part of the philosophy, at least as its preached now.

On the MLK issue, while he is an interesting in the Christ like treatment he gets, in that he's Christ who comes down on order of Augustus to preach that Emperor worship is a core part of Judaism. He may have lead the church and his people in a bad direction, but basically every mainstream denomination seems to have eagerly jumped to follow, to the mainstreams seeming steady doom. But, if the conservatives lost to the left in the 1920-40s as some say, we can hardly blame MLK for being leftist while leading a leftist country and church.

And the "I have a dream" lays out a very appealing vision, which at least to me isn't as immediately cringey as what's put forward in John Lennon's "Imagine", and it doesn't immediately fall apart as what happens when you ask a communist to explain anything specific about their economic program. "Don't be bigoted to Black people" seems to be way more possible than "work for free" or "we will decide every petty business decision by having everyone in the company vote on it".

Now, seeing what's happening now in the US and South Africa, that dream seems to be dying, and it was not nearly as achievable is it was hoped. Maybe were just reaching the 1960s compared to the 1920s regarding communism where communisms problems were not as blindingly obvious to people until people had tried to implement communism for 40 years, so maybe were reaching the same point on the civil right's program. 2010 Is about where I was starting to hear more relatively mainstream questioning of civil rights in general.

Sure, people complained earlier. The Goldwater campaign was partially about that, but, well, he was also crushed. To whatever degree Goldwater was right, no one was willing to listen to him at that point, so it was mute.

Any issues that did come up, the busing controversy, the 90s riots, complaints about inner city culture or affirmative action, generally were criticized as either a sign the civil rights project was incomplete, or that it had gone to far on this particular issue. An excess of an otherwise good program. Its only really since the 2010s that criticism and doubt has started to go so far as to doubt the program in its entirety and question its fundamental assumptions.

Maybe around the time of Ferguson in 2014 was when I really started to see things rolling? Where, after reelecting a black president, and finding out that wasn't enough, you had wonderings if anything would ever be enough? Maybe there was a similar dawning realization in the USSR during the 60s: once everyone has spent their entire lives sacrificing for communism, and seemingly not getting any closer to true communism, one starts to worry that true communism was never going to happen, and all your sacrifice for it was meaningless and pointless.
 
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Maybe around the time of Ferguson in 2014 was when I really started to see things rolling? Where, after reelecting a black president, and finding out that wasn't enough, you had wonderings if anything would ever be enough? Maybe there was a similar dawning realization in the USSR during the 60s: once everyone has spent their entire lives sacrificing for communism, and seemingly not getting any closer to true communism, one starts to worry that true communism was never going to happen, and all your sacrifice for it was meaningless and pointless.

While there is something to be said for the tendency for liberal movements to turn on each other, part of this is the US is also reaching the end of its economic and institutional cycle. The major advancements in microchips appears to be ending, along with the economic advantages that brings. That's causing serious economic stagnation. At the same time, our institutions have reached the end of their cycle. The US Federal government is so overcomplicated and inefficient, that even laws that people intend to work in x fashion end up working in y fashion.

At the same time that THIS is happening in the United States, you have an economic crises in Western Europe, China--and both of those are going to be linked to economic/social crises when they hit. On top of that, every major economy on the planet is connected to an international system that is upheld and maintained by the United States--which has because of its institution/economic cycle, can't even decide HOW it's going to engage the world. All that it does know is that it doesn't want to keep doing it as it has been for the past 70 years. This problem was then accelerated & intensified by the Wuhan Virus, which both increased American suspicion of the rest of the world and increased border protections.

This is all a perfect storm.

Shortly after America lets go, the whole world is going to plunge into chaos. I'd expected Trump to be that Harbinger of Doom...but I'm not even sure if Trump is going to get back in office quick enough (if at all) to make that happen. The Harbinger of Doom for the global world might just be an unengaged, uninspired old man named Joe Biden.
 
While we're on the topic of MLK...The guy early on gave Sermons about how socialists were going to burn in hell. He wanted LGBT people to be branded like cattle and put on lists and other hilariously epic shit like this "There's a gay illuminati out there trying to destroy civilization by sissifying men"

Then he went from that to coming off like a Kennedy fuckboy.

Or at least that's how his post humous martyrdom portrays him as. I was always under the impression that King was all over the damn place myself, that he was basically the soccer dad meme from the 90's come to life half a century earlier.
 
While we're on the topic of MLK...The guy early on gave Sermons about how socialists were going to burn in hell. He wanted LGBT people to be branded like cattle and put on lists and other hilariously epic shit like this "There's a gay illuminati out there trying to destroy civilization by sissifying men"

Then he went from that to coming off like a Kennedy fuckboy.

Or at least that's how his post humous martyrdom portrays him as. I was always under the impression that King was all over the damn place myself, that he was basically the soccer dad meme from the 90's come to life half a century earlier.

Yeah, its hard to say anything about the man himself, because you seemly can pull quotes from him to justify anything you want him to believe/represent. I've seen some long, in depth quote mining battles over if he's a socialist or not. I'm not sure how much it matters.

As far as I can tell, he wasn't really a thought leader: there's no "Martin Luther King, a manifesto". So unlike the first Martin Luther, there's not really a couple of key works to read where he really lays out his opinions and program in a very formalized way. He was, well, a preacher, not a theologian, and communicated in that style. Which is about conveying a message in a impactful, persuasive way, not derive the message from first principles and rigorous logistical arguments.

And, well, by 1964 he was the front man for implementing Kennedy's agenda, and, well, what MLK thought about anything matters increasely less as he's just the front man for other people's project.
 
And, well, by 1964 he was the front man for implementing Kennedy's agenda, and, well, what MLK thought about anything matters increasely less as he's just the front man for other people's project.

Right and you're correct. There's a huge difference between Doctor King, the well spoken grillbro, suburb preacher before he got pushed to the moon (To borrow wrestling parlance) and MLK, the man who led a million men on a march through the capitol and cavorted with the Kennedy crime family.

I guess that makes him a sell out, though I'd argue he's miles ahead in quality of the depraved morons who succeeded him. Shame his family went out of their way to destroy as much of his early work as humanly possible to cover up how fucking hilariously Alex Jonesian he allegedly was in his youth.
 
I think this is so confusing due to US left taking over "liberalism" as a political flag which used to represent quite a separate idea, one closer to what we now call libertarianism - until leftists have started to infiltrate all the liberal parties and pushing for more care, fairness and equality of outcomes over liberty. Which is unavoidable, because where there's liberty there can't be equality of outcomes, as free people will make different decisions with unequal outcomes.

I think it might also be a recognition (at some level) that liberalism leads to leftism. Original liberals reject hierarchy, tradition and other traditionalist elements. But rejection of these elements means inevitable acceptance of leftism. If you reject tradition, you have to have a mess of laws to replace it. If you reject traditional hierarchy and roles, you have to have a massive state to replace them.

Liberalism is not leftism, but it damn well opened the doors for it.
 
I think it might also be a recognition (at some level) that liberalism leads to leftism. Original liberals reject hierarchy, tradition and other traditionalist elements. But rejection of these elements means inevitable acceptance of leftism. If you reject tradition, you have to have a mess of laws to replace it. If you reject traditional hierarchy and roles, you have to have a massive state to replace them.

Liberalism is not leftism, but it damn well opened the doors for it.
Before the big switcharound of "liberalism" turning into "socialdemocracy", liberals had no problem with hierarchy (they were big on meritocracy in it) and also a lot of contentious tradition - in the golden age of liberal parties most of their politicians absolutely weren't pushing homosexual marriage for example. Wanting to reject all hierarchy to the point of total social dysfunction is an anarcho-communist pet peeve, and its also leftist ideological imperative to crush traditions no matter the effect.

Which raises an alternative theory - liberals were the original RINOs. They said all the sensible things and generally didn't want to do anything crazy, but if some asshole leftist will come up to them, call them a racist, sexist, homophobic backwards redneck bigot who should get kicked out of the polite society, and if enough of them do it enough times, the spineless liberals will eventually decide that whatever in particular the leftists want now is just a necessary change to keep up with the times and will acquiesce to them to earn some calm... for the next year or two.
And then it's rinse and repeat. After 30 or 40 cycles of that they may aswell not write their own political platform anymore because its just a list of things leftist bullied them into putting on it, and then everyone wonders why their supposedly liberal party is full of leftists and their political program is a bunch of things leftists want.
 
Before the big switcharound of "liberalism" turning into "socialdemocracy", liberals had no problem with hierarchy (they were big on meritocracy in it) and also a lot of contentious tradition - in the golden age of liberal parties most of their politicians absolutely weren't pushing homosexual marriage for example. Wanting to reject all hierarchy to the point of total social dysfunction is an anarcho-communist pet peeve, and its also leftist ideological imperative to crush traditions no matter the effect.

Which raises an alternative theory - liberals were the original RINOs. They said all the sensible things and generally didn't want to do anything crazy, but if some asshole leftist will come up to them, call them a racist, sexist, homophobic backwards redneck bigot who should get kicked out of the polite society, and if enough of them do it enough times, the spineless liberals will eventually decide that whatever in particular the leftists want now is just a necessary change to keep up with the times and will acquiesce to them to earn some calm... for the next year or two.
And then it's rinse and repeat. After 30 or 40 cycles of that they may aswell not write their own political platform anymore because its just a list of things leftist bullied them into putting on it, and then everyone wonders why their supposedly liberal party is full of leftists and their political program is a bunch of things leftists want.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, original liberalism - to my understanding - focused on three things:
  • civil liberties
  • rule of law
  • economic freedom
This also included things such as individualism, rulers following the law, and free trade.

Problem is that all of these things, while sensible in themselves, have very far reaching - and very destructive - consequences. And for several reasons.
  • Civil liberties had always existed, from Ancient Greek times onwards. But they were based in social morality. Once liberal government put civil liberties into law, this had the unintended - but in retrospect, obvious - effect of both devaluing civil liberties and making them open to manipulation.
  • Rule of law is, well... rule of law. And in modern form it is very much not a good thing. During Middle Ages (and specifically in the Byzantine Empire) you had traditional law. I will actually use Tolkien here to describe how it works: "A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker.". This is the ideal of law. But modern law is transient, mutable, and very much ideological. Thanks to constant changes and Marxist appropriation and interpretation of things such as "human rights" and "rule of law", law has become a joke. Laws multiply, but society doesn't work any better for it.
  • As for economic freedom... economic freedom for whom? Absolute freedom leads to loss of freedom, as economic factors coagulate into massive - often international - conglomerates and establish monopolies. So if you want to preserve economic freedom, you have to often lead a protectionist economic policy - deny freedom in order to preserve it.
So as a conclusion I will just repeat myself: liberalism is not leftism, but it opened the door for leftism.
 
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, original liberalism - to my understanding - focused on three things:
  • civil liberties
  • rule of law
  • economic freedom
This also included things such as individualism, rulers following the law, and free trade.

Problem is that all of these things, while sensible in themselves, have very far reaching - and very destructive - consequences. And for several reasons.
  • Civil liberties had always existed, from Ancient Greek times onwards. But they were based in social morality. Once liberal government put civil liberties into law, this had the unintended - but in retrospect, obvious - effect of both devaluing civil liberties and making them open to manipulation.
  • Rule of law is, well... rule of law. And in modern form it is very much not a good thing. During Middle Ages (and specifically in the Byzantine Empire) you had traditional law. I will actually use Tolkien here to describe how it works: "A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker.". This is the ideal of law. But modern law is transient, mutable, and very much ideological. Thanks to constant changes and Marxist appropriation and interpretation of things such as "human rights" and "rule of law", law has become a joke. Laws multiply, but society doesn't work any better for it.
That's the old problem of legislating morality into law. Functional societies shouldn't do that. The question isn't "which moral system", this applies to some religious fundamentalist groups too - see: Middle East, no one is jealous of their legal systems.

Administrative bloat is hardly a new and unusual problem, it's just that the people responsible for it, even when some say they understand that it is a problem indeed, fail to do much about it.
  • As for economic freedom... economic freedom for whom? Absolute freedom leads to loss of freedom, as economic factors coagulate into massive - often international - conglomerates and establish monopolies. So if you want to preserve economic freedom, you have to often lead a protectionist economic policy - deny freedom in order to preserve it.
So as a conclusion I will just repeat myself: liberalism is not leftism, but it opened the door for leftism.
That's an obvious problem with the idea of "free trade" that is skipped by politicians of all sorts for various reasons. It's one thing if businesses compete under the same conditions of law, rules and standards. But when the competition with sovereign foreign powers with very different ideas about these, about competition, about government involvement into economy, join the game, this becomes a very asymmetric competition, in which some players have to play by "fair" rules and other players set their own rules on their home part of the board yet use the "fair" rules elsewhere, in turn raising the question of loyalties of international businesses and how should states act on them.
 
That's the old problem of legislating morality into law. Functional societies shouldn't do that. The question isn't "which moral system", this applies to some religious fundamentalist groups too - see: Middle East, no one is jealous of their legal systems.

tbh this just seems nonsensical. Obviously every society legislates morality into law. What would a law that wasn't based on any moral system at all even look like?
 
tbh this just seems nonsensical. Obviously every society legislates morality into law. What would a law that wasn't based on any moral system at all even look like?
"based on" =/= "law and morality are one".
The most obvious and clear case of morality legislated into law is the strictest interpretation of Sharia law in certain Islamic countries.
A legal system in sane societies is meant to be some sort of moral "mandatory minimum" (in addition to non-morally charged roles like tax administration) with everything beyond the minimum controlled (or not, if the public will is such) softer social measures. This is how even during medieval ages in a large part of clearly religious Christendom there were brothels operating right next to major cities, openly and legally, despite the inherently and unavoidably sinful nature of the business, by the standards of commonly recognized state religion in such places.
 
At one extreme yes. At the other extreme, excessive veneration of ancestors is why Japan *to this day* largely only makes technological advancement by imitating the West. The Japanese practice of only *ever* making modest tweaks and refinements to the same basic methods is rooted in the idea that throwing out existing ways and means is offensive to the ancestors. It's not quite an absolute cultural taboo on new things, but it massively limits how technology can ever be developed.

Japan would still be in the Bronze Age if they didn't have what amounts to a cultural escape clause where they're allowed to steal/copy from foreigners (and then start a new cycle of refinement form there) without it "counting" as dissing the ancestors.
This is just plain liberal ignorance/racism towards Asians. No ancestor veneration does not lead to stagnation, Japan managed to go way past the Bronze Age on its own it advanced by itself its first contact with westerners was the warring states era and they did copy guns however lots of other peoples copied western inventions and westerners copied eastern peoples. The only time Japan did a mass copy of the west was after they were forced to open up in the 1850s. The reason they had to do it was because the Shogunate made a bad choice hundreds of years earlier to close contact with the world. Sakoku had its benefits and its downsides. It had a benefit of making Japan peaceful and comfy, but it also made it lag behind the rest of the world, hence why the Meiji reforms had a crash course industrialization. Nowadays Japan manages to innovate new technologies and build things itself. It is one of the world leaders in robotics.
 

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