Advocate: "You won't date trans people because you are ignorant, biased, and Transphobic"

Honestly, I wonder why any of those secretly MTF types hide it for so long

Do they know their partners expected negative reaction and hope to exploit it or were they sorta indoctrinated to see things too optimistically?
You're missing the point of a delusion. If you admit it's not real, you're violating the delusion.


...storming out on someone you otherwise enjoy the company of is not "not wanting to have sex with them"...
sigh... I'm rather tired of my words being outright lied about so I'm just gonna unwatch and stop responding here.
I'm sorry what were you lying?
*AHEM*

The context:
I see. So if a woman is in said situation and finds something disagreeable with a male and no longer wants him, she is phobic towards him then?

Response:

If she finds out "oh, you're Autistic" and then no, yes.

Complete text of your post:

If she finds out "oh, you're Autistic" and then no, yes.
If she finds out "oh, you're X% White" and then no, yes.
If she finds out "oh, you're X% Asian" and then no, yes.

If she finds out "oh, you're a Sex-Offender" and then no, no.
If she finds out "oh, you're a devout Christian" and then no, no.
If she finds out "oh, you're a devout Muslim" and then no, no.

Intrinsic Characteristics vs Choices you see.

Number of times the phrase "Storming out" appears: 0
 
Phobia means intense dislike, or fear.... not wanting to have sex with someone obviously doesnt count as a phobia. Phobia is where you refuse to have them in your presence, and you respond with either extreme conduct, or outright violence.
On a fundamental level, however, all refusal is a judgement.

If a woman doesn't want to have sex with you, that is a judgement. She's judging you, negatively.
 
Honestly, I wonder why any of those secretly MTF types hide it for so long

Do they know their partners expected negative reaction and hope to exploit it or were they sorta indoctrinated to see things too optimistically?

They just want to be normal and it overcomes their common sense, and of course, there's nothing special about transsexual women except for matters of inferiority; so of course you have plenty of very stupid people who put no thought into anything at all, just like among natal women, or men. Such is life. The reality is that having the grace to accept an inferiority which renders you completely undesirable to the vast number of dating partners you might have is something that is very hard to obtain within anyone's soul.
 
The reality is that having the grace to accept an inferiority which renders you completely undesirable to the vast number of dating partners you might have is something that is very hard to obtain within anyone's soul.

I accepted my inferiority years ago, it helped me be really self aware and aware of even the biases and problems of others

Having self awareness isn’t a blessing, it’s a curse because you can’t self delude yourself and others will insist on the impossible or drag you into things you want no part of.....at times I really want to get out of a business meeting where I am incapable of knowing what’s going on(been like this for years)and trying out my time instead on learning at an online class

Being forced to be with classmates and family on long trips where they ooh and aah aboyt things I have absolutely no enthusiasm for has left me with desires of murder
 
True, but if you care that much about it, you should figure that out ahead of time; and if it turns out they lied, then you can storm out. It's the lying that makes storming out justified, in my opinion, and trying to pretend you're a different gender that what you are is a lie.

That's exactly my point though. If I've misled or lied over religion then what else have I lied about? Lying itself is a pretty big thing.
 
That's exactly my point though. If I've misled or lied over religion then what else have I lied about? Lying itself is a pretty big thing.
And I agree with that point; honesty is the foundation of any relationship, and you cannot build one off of lies. However, there is a difference between lying, and simply not giving them the opportunity to tell you.
 
You're missing the point of a delusion. If you admit it's not real, you're violating the delusion.
Yep.

These days, daring to tell a trans person that they are delusional, and that a sex change surgery won't actually make them into a man/woman, gets a hostile response in a lot of places. Because the whole trans movement is built around delusions and people seeing money signs in humoring them/defending them.

The numbers on how many post-op trans people still kill themselves show the surgery doesn't actually do anything to really help them most of the time, and how the docs who preform the surgeries/prescribe the meds are making a lot of cash of helping humor and push the trans delusion.
 
Yep.

These days, daring to tell a trans person that they are delusional, and that a sex change surgery won't actually make them into a man/woman, gets a hostile response in a lot of places. Because the whole trans movement is built around delusions and people seeing money signs in humoring them/defending them.

The numbers on how many post-op trans people still kill themselves show the surgery doesn't actually do anything to really help them most of the time, and how the docs who preform the surgeries/prescribe the meds are making a lot of cash of helping humor and push the trans delusion.

That’s an intensely left-wing attitude which presupposes a primitive, pop-culture set of assumptions about biology and neglects the spiritual element entirely. Human civilisation has incorporated transsexuality since it existed, classifying it and channeling it for thousands of years.

It is a kind of tyrannical totalitarianism to say that the body alone determines one’s identity without taking into account the mind. Now, I am not a strict Cartesian and I accept that there is an identifiable biological maleness in transsexuals; however, nor can you ignore the freedom of the human conscience and consciousness to exist true to the dictates of the mind. Accordingly, because the seat of thought, consciousness in humans, is inherently governing of our identities, you cannot simply assert on the basis of biology that transsexuals are not women, because womanhood is a feature of one’s consciousness.

In this way, the absolute destruction of maleness in the act of transitioning leaves behind a creature which is both woman and neutral—it. The fundamental nature of the psyche expresses itself in sincerity and commitment to functioning and appearing as a woman and the destruction of the maleness of the body is the act which conforms with social expectations of womanhood and marks a blood sacrifice which serves an initiatic function.

Of course, I could critique the fact that you’re cherry-picking evidence by ignoring how much happier transsexuals are after surgery; it doesn’t work for some and so the suicide rate has risen over time (it was lower in the 80s and 90s) in part due to a reduction in the standards of differential diagnosis to remove secondary transsexuals—i.e. modern transgenders—from the system and get the care those autogynephiliacs need.

I could also observe that while not whole matching female brains the evidence clearly shows substantial physically anomalous regions and physical traits like finger length, height and low testosterone levels which correlate strongly with transsexuality, or the greater rate of transsexuality with Klinefelter’s XXY syndrome, all of which show a real physical cause. I could also observe that there are fertile XY females who can give birth to other fertile XY females, showing the meaninglessness of chromosomal classification alone.

However, as a matter of fact, the biological debate matters little to me. What is more important is that the Initiatic lineages of Twelver Shia Islam, Bahai Faith, and important strains of Buddhism and Hinduism acknowledge that in some sense these “women of the second type” are indeed, in some real and legitimate sense, women, and indeed legitimate strains of Judaism are also sympathetic to the prospect. Accordingly the Traditionalism and therefore legitimacy of the existence of transsexuals is beyond dispute.
 
That’s an intensely left-wing attitude which presupposes a primitive, pop-culture set of assumptions about biology and neglects the spiritual element entirely. Human civilisation has incorporated transsexuality since it existed, classifying it and channeling it for thousands of years.

It is a kind of tyrannical totalitarianism to say that the body alone determines one’s identity without taking into account the mind. Now, I am not a strict Cartesian and I accept that there is an identifiable biological maleness in transsexuals; however, nor can you ignore the freedom of the human conscience and consciousness to exist true to the dictates of the mind. Accordingly, because the seat of thought, consciousness in humans, is inherently governing of our identities, you cannot simply assert on the basis of biology that transsexuals are not women, because womanhood is a feature of one’s consciousness.

In this way, the absolute destruction of maleness in the act of transitioning leaves behind a creature which is both woman and neutral—it. The fundamental nature of the psyche expresses itself in sincerity and commitment to functioning and appearing as a woman and the destruction of the maleness of the body is the act which conforms with social expectations of womanhood and marks a blood sacrifice which serves an initiatic function.

Of course, I could critique the fact that you’re cherry-picking evidence by ignoring how much happier transsexuals are after surgery; it doesn’t work for some and so the suicide rate has risen over time (it was lower in the 80s and 90s) in part due to a reduction in the standards of differential diagnosis to remove secondary transsexuals—i.e. modern transgenders—from the system and get the care those autogynephiliacs need.

I could also observe that while not whole matching female brains the evidence clearly shows substantial physically anomalous regions and physical traits like finger length, height and low testosterone levels which correlate strongly with transsexuality, or the greater rate of transsexuality with Klinefelter’s XXY syndrome, all of which show a real physical cause. I could also observe that there are fertile XY females who can give birth to other fertile XY females, showing the meaninglessness of chromosomal classification alone.

However, as a matter of fact, the biological debate matters little to me. What is more important is that the Initiatic lineages of Twelver Shia Islam, Bahai Faith, and important strains of Buddhism and Hinduism acknowledge that in some sense these “women of the second type” are indeed, in some real and legitimate sense, women, and indeed legitimate strains of Judaism are also sympathetic to the prospect. Accordingly the Traditionalism and therefore legitimacy of the existence of transsexuals is beyond dispute.
*Yawn*

Yeah, a few genetic flukes and outliers do not undo the general understanding of what is a man and woman. No amount of surgeries and hormones can make a woman into a man or vis versa.

Trying to play the philosophical card is crap too, because we did not design western laws and society around esoteric views of a few sects.

No amount of philosophical mumbo-jumbo will change the fact that when a MtF identifies as a woman, or a FtM identifies as a man, they are lying to the world because it makes them feel better about themselves.
 
*Yawn*

Yeah, a few genetic flukes and outliers do not undo the general understanding of what is a man and woman. No amount of surgeries and hormones can make a woman into a man or vis versa.

Trying to play the philosophical card is crap too, because we did not design western laws and society around esoteric views of a few sects.

No amount of philosophical mumbo-jumbo will change the fact that when a MtF identifies as a woman, or a FtM identifies as a man, they are lying to the world because it makes them feel better about themselves.

Genetic flukes and outliers prove that definitions are not axiomatic. The number of transsexuals is so small that the issue is an outlier to begin with.

The laws of secular countries must entertain equality for the beliefs of all. They must also respect personal liberty. In both cases laws establishing more than reasonable standards of verification for transition (which are certainly reasonable and certainly I support) would fail any constitutional or human rights test. Traditional societies permitted such safety valves precisely because not doing so is immoral.

Finally, your dismissal of the identity of transsexuals is directly comparable to a dismissal of religion and a reliance on total empirical evidence—that is, the leftwing popular atheist position. That forces you to defend your position entirely on biological grounds, and there is enough contrary evidence to your position when viewed on biological grounds alone that it would never withstand strict scrutiny; there is enough evidence for legitimate biological differences that refusing accommodation for them under the law could never be morally supported. Your biological argument is, simply, not axiomatic, and therefore insufficient justification for rigid and unyielding policy.

So then you have to fall back on spiritual grounds to defend your position. But your position is, as I demonstrated, not axiomatic in spiritual terms either. A specific religion, as Christianity does, may ostracize and drive out transsexuals according to its interpretation of philosophy and doctrine and should be protected in its right to do so; however, you simply cannot do the same in a pluralistic society.

Personally you may think transsexual women mere eunuchs, “It” and not She, and that is your right; but your personal conviction itself rings hollow in the face of the profound nature of the spiritual calling which following that course was understood to be in ancient times, and in the present and modern situations, I would be terrified of the day that the conviction of someone’s heart is treated as a pathology, because they may start with creatures you esteem as but dust in the wind, but the totalitarians will come for you sooner or later, it will just be a matter of time.
 
Genetic flukes and outliers prove that definitions are not axiomatic. The number of transsexuals is so small that the issue is an outlier to begin with.

The laws of secular countries must entertain equality for the beliefs of all. They must also respect personal liberty. In both cases laws establishing more than reasonable standards of verification for transition (which are certainly reasonable and certainly I support) would fail any constitutional or human rights test. Traditional societies permitted such safety valves precisely because not doing so is immoral.

Finally, your dismissal of the identity of transsexuals is directly comparable to a dismissal of religion and a reliance on total empirical evidence—that is, the leftwing popular atheist position. That forces you to defend your position entirely on biological grounds, and there is enough contrary evidence to your position when viewed on biological grounds alone that it would never withstand strict scrutiny; there is enough evidence for legitimate biological differences that refusing accommodation for them under the law could never be morally supported. Your biological argument is, simply, not axiomatic, and therefore insufficient justification for rigid and unyielding policy.

So then you have to fall back on spiritual grounds to defend your position. But your position is, as I demonstrated, not axiomatic in spiritual terms either. A specific religion, as Christianity does, may ostracize and drive out transsexuals according to its interpretation of philosophy and doctrine and should be protected in its right to do so; however, you simply cannot do the same in a pluralistic society.

Personally you may think transsexual women mere eunuchs, “It” and not She, and that is your right; but your personal conviction itself rings hollow in the face of the profound nature of the spiritual calling which following that course was understood to be in ancient times, and in the present and modern situations, I would be terrified of the day that the conviction of someone’s heart is treated as a pathology, because they may start with creatures you esteem as but dust in the wind, but the totalitarians will come for you sooner or later, it will just be a matter of time.
...you know, I'm not going to argue any further with you on this subject.

This is not a concession, but we are not going to see eye to eye on this. And no amount of anger or walls of text is going to change how I feel and see things on this issue.
 
I hate this thread, especially the quoted section in the title, it makes me think of a certain annoyance who pulled this retarded argument as well and then promptly got smacked down for being the same as their argument. Now I have mental images of... It... Send help.

Outside of the title ribbing, yeah, no, if you're going to mislead people into thinking you're something that you are not then don't be surprised when people are revolted by what you are and then you decide to follow it up with a "Oh, yer just a phobe!" because we all know it's the fact you're a deluded, surgically and/or chemically altered freak.

Now to move on to the other two statements, ignorant? Ignorant of what? Your absurdly high suicide rate? The fact you can't have kids and that automatically shuts off interest in a lot of people (to relative degrees) because you can't do what they want deep down? The fact you need to regularly inject yourself with untested drugs that are being tested on influenced children? Piss off, only ignorant one is the plums who think peoples lack of desire to shag you is based on a phobia.

And... Biased... Eh, give them that one, I am in fact biased towards real, natural women that didn't need a stainless steel blade and needles laced with harmful chemicals to get where they are now looks-wise. And frankly, I wouldn't change that bias for anything other than more precise bias' towards various types of real women...
 
...you know, I'm not going to argue any further with you on this subject.

This is not a concession, but we are not going to see eye to eye on this. And no amount of anger or walls of text is going to change how I feel and see things on this issue.

The anger is pure projection on your part, a perfect assumption, and you will not make assumptions about me. I have made no assumptions about why you hold the beliefs that you do, I have merely challenged them on merits. Why is that anger? Why do you think ten thousand years of human history needs to get angry at the opinion of a single person on the internet? Pray apologise for saying I am angry.
 
The anger is pure projection on your part, a perfect assumption, and you will not make assumptions about me. I have made no assumptions about why you hold the beliefs that you do, I have merely challenged them on merits. Why is that anger? Why do you think ten thousand years of human history needs to get angry at the opinion of a single person on the internet? Pray apologise for saying I am angry.
For 10,000 years they had what were basically drag queens and eunuchs.

It is rather more recently that people have started paying to have their genitals cut up, turned inside out or outside in, and demanding people address them by a new name or pronoun.

Do not pretend they are even close to the same thing.

Edit: And please do not try to drag me back into this fight anymore. I have stated my views multiple times, and tried to end this semi-civilly.
 
For 10,000 years they had what were basically drag queens and eunuchs.

It is rather more recently that people have started paying to have their genitals cut up, turned inside out or outside in, and demanding people address them by a new name or pronoun.

Do not pretend they are even close to the same thing.

Edit: And please do not try to drag me back into this fight anymore. I have stated my views multiple times, and tried to end this semi-civilly.


If you want to walk away from this thread, you can do so. There’s nothing in the rules of the forum which implies that doing so is forbidden or that it constitutes a concession or admission that you are wrong.

The reality is that you are wrong; even the very name in Thailand, for instance, translates as “Woman of the second type” and rather obviously implies womanhood. An inferior womanhood (as one would expect and is just and fair) but womanhood nonetheless. I could write considerable details on the historicity of a feminine identity for many eunuchs in recorded history... And reserve the right to do so later in another thread, incorporating research in the Gallae and Hijra for instance. The idea that modern surgery being more sophisticated than total functional castration somehow invalidates the connection does not make sense, nor does it match evidence I could provide (and will for anyone interested) regarding the direct progression from eunuch culture to medical transition in Taiwan in the early part of the 20th century.

Nobody here is proposing that these facts invalidate your absolute right to be completely sexually repulsed at every level by such a person. All well and good. But free speech in general and the principles of this forum mean I can continue to reply to you for as long as I want, and if you are willing to engage with me I will be happy to go into more detail.
 
For 10,000 years they had what were basically drag queens and eunuchs.

It is rather more recently that people have started paying to have their genitals cut up, turned inside out or outside in, and demanding people address them by a new name or pronoun.

Do not pretend they are even close to the same thing.

Edit: And please do not try to drag me back into this fight anymore. I have stated my views multiple times, and tried to end this semi-civilly.
Did you not literally just say you weren't responding further?

You made it one hour.
 
Did you not literally just say you weren't responding further?

You made it one hour.
Meh, he made it longer than I have at times. Sometimes, you just think you're done, and then the other guys keeps spouting their nonsense, and you cannot resist diving back in. You want to stop, but you just can't; I'm not going to hold it against him.



If you want to walk away from this thread, you can do so. There’s nothing in the rules of the forum which implies that doing so is forbidden or that it constitutes a concession or admission that you are wrong.

The reality is that you are wrong; even the very name in Thailand, for instance, translates as “Woman of the second type” and rather obviously implies womanhood. An inferior womanhood (as one would expect and is just and fair) but womanhood nonetheless. I could write considerable details on the historicity of a feminine identity for many eunuchs in recorded history... And reserve the right to do so later in another thread, incorporating research in the Gallae and Hijra for instance. The idea that modern surgery being more sophisticated than total functional castration somehow invalidates the connection does not make sense, nor does it match evidence I could provide (and will for anyone interested) regarding the direct progression from eunuch culture to medical transition in Taiwan in the early part of the 20th century.

Nobody here is proposing that these facts invalidate your absolute right to be completely sexually repulsed at every level by such a person. All well and good. But free speech in general and the principles of this forum mean I can continue to reply to you for as long as I want, and if you are willing to engage with me I will be happy to go into more detail.
If I may interject, I have my own opinions about transsexualism and gender, and they are thus; gender is a function of biology, its purpose is to provide a system by which offspring can be produced, as well as raised and protected. Unfortunately, like with any system, there are bound to be errors. The soul however, has no influence on any of this; as I believe that it, if it exists, starts out as a blank slate. As time goes on, it will be shaped by your experiences; which themselves are influenced by biology.
 
If I may interject, I have my own opinions about transsexualism and gender, and they are thus; gender is a function of biology, its purpose is to provide a system by which offspring can be produced, as well as raised and protected. Unfortunately, like with any system, there are bound to be errors. The soul however, has no influence on any of this; as I believe that it, if it exists, starts out as a blank slate. As time goes on, it will be shaped by your experiences; which themselves are influenced by biology.

Well, that is an interesting philosophy, but it isn't congruent with eastern Dharmic teaching, of course, where transsexuality reflects an accrued failing of dharma on the part of the soul, so we merely disagree on that point, on a grounds that it isn't productive to debate.

As for the biological matter, consider that we have demonstrated fertile XY females who give birth to presumptively fertile XY females. Therefore, we can state that while XY karyotyping may be presumptively male, it is not axiomatically male (it does not demonstrate maleness only by itself). Because human features are statistically mediated and men and women will share overlap in almost all traits, what's left at that point? Sexual organs.

So if those are removed, as they are in someone who is completely castrated or in a male-to-female transsexual, then such a person is objectively biologically neutral. They are not male, and not female. Now, in our society we expect people to be either male or female, and how do we actually code people into those categories on a day to day basis? Based on appearance, mannerism, voice, etc. All of these can be mastered by a sincere transsexual woman who puts serious effort into it. So the biologically neutral person, who spiritually identifies as female (but this is unprovable in the physical world, I grant), behaves like a woman, speaks like one, acts like one, and based on appearance looks like one. In that case you have spiritually someone who asserts they are female, socially someone who behaves as females do, someone who possesses the secondary sexual characteristics (appearance, to be simple) of a female, and someone who is biologically neutral, lacking any features which may be axiomatically assigned to one sex or the other.

In that case, it is much more socially disruptive, as well as ethically cruel, to attempt to rely on non-axiomatic features which trend toward maleness, or past history, to code someone against the Nature of the majority of their defined traits.

Now, of course, this renders bankrupt the entire ideology of transgenderists. We can actually see from this exercise that transgenderists, by saying that surgery is unnecessary for one's identity to be valid and that people do not need to put serious effort into passing, that gender itself is a mere category which can be violated at will, are objectively wrong. Because those are exactly the only ways that a transsexual can be a woman! Transgenderists literally argue against the only way that a transsexual woman may be called a woman! This is why there is a fundamental tension between primary transsexuals and the autogynephilia/"secondary transsexual" led "transgender rights" movement. The former is a fundamentally conservative act which upholds social norms; the later is self-defeating.
 

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