History The Nazi Bashing Thread.

I'd also say that the Judeans had a big sodding problem in that they were a nation without a homeland and had been so for two thousand years straight (breaking the peace of Rome had dreadful consequences). No real place of safety to flee to if things went badly wrong, or a government with armed force to look out for them.

Further, this made them even more "separate" as they had no choice but to be incredibly insular or else their culture would have completely died out. From this evolves the famed nepotism. Couple that with cornering the financial market due to centuries of forced familiarity with it (the Christians really did blow their foot off with those usury laws), and the Jewish messiah complex getting some of them mixed up in very weird things politically speaking, the poor bastards might as well have had a bulls eye painted on them.
 
Lord Sovereign said:
I'd also say that the Judeans had a big sodding problem in that they were a nation without a homeland and had been so for two thousand years straight (breaking the peace of Rome had dreadful consequences). No real place of safety to flee to if things went badly wrong, or a government with armed force to look out for them.

Further, this made them even more "separate" as they had no choice but to be incredibly insular or else their culture would have completely died out. From this evolves the famed nepotism. Couple that with cornering the financial market due to centuries of forced familiarity with it (the Christians really did blow their foot off with those usury laws), and the Jewish messiah complex getting some of them mixed up in very weird things politically speaking, the poor bastards might as well have had a bulls eye painted on them.
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and yet dispite it all we survived.

Considering all of the countries we outlived its pretty impressive.
 
Lord Sovereign said:
I'd also say that the Judeans had a big sodding problem in that they were a nation without a homeland and had been so for two thousand years straight (breaking the peace of Rome had dreadful consequences). No real place of safety to flee to if things went badly wrong, or a government with armed force to look out for them.

Further, this made them even more "separate" as they had no choice but to be incredibly insular or else their culture would have completely died out. From this evolves the famed nepotism. Couple that with cornering the financial market due to centuries of forced familiarity with it (the Christians really did blow their foot off with those usury laws), and the Jewish messiah complex getting some of them mixed up in very weird things politically speaking, the poor bastards might as well have had a bulls eye painted on them.
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Honestly the usury laws, while daft, were only the start of it. Europeans spent a good thousand plus years taking their most intellectually inclined individuals, and then going out of their way to discourage them from having children. I'm sure that has had no negative impacts on the IQ distributions for my fellow folk of European descent, I mean, how could it? /sarc/
 
willdelve4beer said:
Honestly the usury laws, while daft, were only the start of it. Europeans spent a good thousand plus years taking their most intellectually inclined individuals, and then going out of their way to discourage them from having children. I'm sure that has had no negative impacts on the IQ distributions for my fellow folk of European descent, I mean, how could it? /sarc/
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Actually that is what made them more intellectually inclined.

The Jews high IQ and their strong community/in group preference is a direct example of harsh Darwinian selection in action.They were basically pushed into positions where they had to attain intellectual skills, and the Damocles sword hanging over them weeded out the dumber ones.

Also, they are far from the only middleman minority that has been heavily cracked down upon.
It was super convenient for the priests, the kings and the rest of the nobility to just shake them off or use them as a nice distraction.


In most of Asia, trade and lending was facilitated by Chinese people, who were universally despised.


Traders in China and Japan proper were not liked, either, with whores and the lowest of entertainers having a higher social standing.


Armenians can also be added to the list of despised middleman minorities.

Lord Sovereign said:
I'd also say that the Judeans had a big sodding problem in that they were a nation without a homeland and had been so for two thousand years straight (breaking the peace of Rome had dreadful consequences). No real place of safety to flee to if things went badly wrong, or a government with armed force to look out for them.

Further, this made them even more "separate" as they had no choice but to be incredibly insular or else their culture would have completely died out. From this evolves the famed nepotism. Couple that with cornering the financial market due to centuries of forced familiarity with it (the Christians really did blow their foot off with those usury laws), and the Jewish messiah complex getting some of them mixed up in very weird things politically speaking, the poor bastards might as well have had a bulls eye painted on them.
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A major part of the problem was the geographic location, especially after the 7th century when Arabs and other Muslims started flooding out.


And still, there were sizable communities of Jews in the area of modern Israel, they were just under the control of Byzantium.


In fact, because Byzantium was so corrupt and inefficient at the time they actually helped the Islamist expansion.
 
Cherico said:
and yet dispite it all we survived.

Considering all of the countries we outlived its pretty impressive.
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The Hebrews worshiped when Pharaoh ruled in Egypt, when Assyria rampaged across the Middle East, and when Rome rose and fell.

I mean, if the Bronze Age Collapse and the Final Solution ain't gonna get you, what the fuck will? At this rate the Heat Death of the Universe will fail to eradicate the Jews.

willdelve4beer said:
Honestly the usury laws, while daft, were only the start of it. Europeans spent a good thousand plus years taking their most intellectually inclined individuals, and then going out of their way to discourage them from having children. I'm sure that has had no negative impacts on the IQ distributions for my fellow folk of European descent, I mean, how could it? /sarc/
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Ah yes...all things considered, not letting the Monks have children was a touch harsh and counter productive.

Agent23 said:
In most of Asia, trade and lending was facilitated by Chinese people, who were universally despised.


Traders in China and Japan proper were not liked, either, with whores and the lowest of entertainers having a higher social standing.


Armenians can also be added to the list of despised middleman minorities.
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There's the thing though. Pogroms for Jews and Final Solutions were relatively run of the mill because there was no King of Israel to make a lot of unhappy noises (and sometimes back those noises up by sword point). Meanwhile...

Vietnam: There must be a Final Solution to the Chinese Question!

Celestial Empire: (Cracks knuckles) Does bitch want to run that by me again?
 
Lord Sovereign said:
The Hebrews worshiped when Pharaoh ruled in Egypt, when Assyria rampaged across the Middle East, and when Rome rose and fell.

I mean, if the Bronze Age Collapse and the Final Solution ain't gonna get you, what the fuck will? At this rate the Heat Death of the Universe will fail to eradicate the Jews.
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Somebody needs to write that, the closest was the Jews trying to build a space program in Silverberg's Roma Eterna to get away from the various people that have historically prosecuted them(The Romans were still pagan IIRC) .
Lord Sovereign said:
...

Vietnam: There must be a Final Solution to the Chinese Question!

Celestial Empire: (Cracks knuckles) Does bitch want to run that by me again?
Click to expand...
yeah, and the Hebrew king would have been very far away and surrounded by bigger and nastier things he'd have to worry about.
 
Lord Sovereign said:
I'd also say that the Judeans had a big sodding problem in that they were a nation without a homeland and had been so for two thousand years straight (breaking the peace of Rome had dreadful consequences). No real place of safety to flee to if things went badly wrong, or a government with armed force to look out for them.

Further, this made them even more "separate" as they had no choice but to be incredibly insular or else their culture would have completely died out. From this evolves the famed nepotism. Couple that with cornering the financial market due to centuries of forced familiarity with it (the Christians really did blow their foot off with those usury laws), and the Jewish messiah complex getting some of them mixed up in very weird things politically speaking, the poor bastards might as well have had a bulls eye painted on them.
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To be fair towards usury laws Jews had laws against it to look up the Old Testament. It’s just that they only gave that good treatment to fellow Jews.
 
King Arts said:
To be fair towards usury laws Jews had laws against it to look up the Old Testament. It’s just that they only gave that good treatment to fellow Jews.
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You do what you have to do to survive man.

We explicity have a rule that says that if your life is on the line then you do what you have to do. borrowing money and having to pay interest on it is hardly the worst thing that can happen to a person.
 
ShieldWife said:
It’s actually kinda strange that Catholic Europe banned Christians from loaning money, but allowed (in some cases encouraged) an unpopular minority to do it - making them both richer and even more unpopular.
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Ever tried to run an economy with out a banking sector? With out interest?

Its really freaking difficult, and countries, and businesses and all the other things run a lot worse with out spare capital moving around the system investing in things.
 
Cherico said:
You do what you have to do to survive man.

We explicity have a rule that says that if your life is on the line then you do what you have to do. borrowing money and having to pay interest on it is hardly the worst thing that can happen to a person.
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I’m not making a value judgement. Also what you said is t strictly true Jews do have standards beyond just survival. I know that Orthodox Jews are supposed to accept death instead of engaging in idolatry or sodomy for example.
Cherico said:
Ever tried to run an economy with out a banking sector? With out interest?

Its really freaking difficult, and countries, and businesses and all the other things run a lot worse with out spare capital moving around the system investing in things.
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I mean ancient Israel somehow made it work. They followed the old law(sometimes when they did not god punished them)
 
Cherico said:
Ever tried to run an economy with out a banking sector? With out interest?

Its really freaking difficult, and countries, and businesses and all the other things run a lot worse with out spare capital moving around the system investing in things.
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This.
My guess would be that it's the ancient version of very crude and broad anti loan sharking regulation outliving its utility and original purpose. Namely, dumb, poor, half starved illiterate peasants fucking themselves over with what we would call now "consumer loans", which could have been an actual problem at that time(especially considering what were the consequences for being in debt back then). Even today some people manage to fuck themselves over with irresponsible use of credit despite all their education and a lot of laws designed to limit how badly they can fuck themselves over with it. In turn many cultures instill aversion towards taking loans to prevent such situations to begin with from the side of the would-be borrower.

Add a cover of high minded idealism to it to make it popular, even if it doesn't change much in effect (loans should be free and charitable!), but still works (in that case no loan for you stupid peasant!), and you get that kind of bullshit (but functional bullshit, stupid peasant can't get a commercial loan he can't handle and that was the point), which eventually get seen for being bullshit because your country can't develop a competitive commercial economy (not made of stupid desperate peasants) without a functional financial sector (way beyond the thinking of some pastoral or nascent farmer society centuries or millenia from needing one), all sorts of clever workarounds get added, and eventually the totally-not-usury becomes available to the dumb peasants again, and we're at square one, just with everything being more complicated, less optimal and everyone arguing about it, sometimes, occasionally violently.
 
King Arts said:
I’m not making a value judgement. Also what you said is t strictly true Jews do have standards beyond just survival. I know that Orthodox Jews are supposed to accept death instead of engaging in idolatry or sodomy for example.

I mean ancient Israel somehow made it work. They followed the old law(sometimes when they did not god punished them)
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Its a balance, be ethical when you can be rightous when you can, but some times the world just fucks you an you have to go into some very dark places to survive.

As for ancient Israel, ehh......

We struggled with the balance of finances and the greater society like everyone else, like any other people were flawed and we have our fuck ups.


Marduk said:
This.
My guess would be that it's the ancient version of very crude and broad anti loan sharking regulation outliving its utility and original purpose. Namely, dumb, poor, half starved illiterate peasants fucking themselves over with what we would call now "consumer loans", which could have been an actual problem at that time(especially considering what were the consequences for being in debt back then). Even today some people manage to fuck themselves over with irresponsible use of credit despite all their education and a lot of laws designed to limit how badly they can fuck themselves over with it. In turn many cultures instill aversion towards taking loans to prevent such situations to begin with from the side of the would-be borrower.

Add a cover of high minded idealism to it to make it popular, even if it doesn't change much in effect (loans should be free and charitable!), but still works (in that case no loan for you stupid peasant!), and you get that kind of bullshit (but functional bullshit, stupid peasant can't get a commercial loan he can't handle and that was the point), which eventually get seen for being bullshit because your country can't develop a competitive commercial economy (not made of stupid desperate peasants) without a functional financial sector (way beyond the thinking of some pastoral or nascent farmer society centuries or millenia from needing one), all sorts of clever workarounds get added, and eventually the totally-not-usury becomes available to the dumb peasants again, and we're at square one, just with everything being more complicated, less optimal and everyone arguing about it, sometimes, occasionally violently.
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Balancing the needs of finance and society isn't an easy task, thats why a lot of ancient societies just banned Usury all together which just hard fucked the economy. This crap has always been complex.

Also the peasant class wasn't as a whole stupid, they understood their craft and while not always educated in letters were not idiots. The problem was nature could be cruel and for no fault of their own one bad harvest could ruin people. And after a bad harvest ruins them repayment of loans becomes much harder.

Some times in life there is no bad guy sometimes shit goes wrong just because of bad luck.
 
ShieldWife said:
It’s actually kinda strange that Catholic Europe banned Christians from loaning money, but allowed (in some cases encouraged) an unpopular minority to do it - making them both richer and even more unpopular.
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Because it was a hated and low status profession that was verboten according to the bible.

It was the "somebody's got to do it" situation, coupled with "we can just shake them up/kill them" and cancel our debts.

And it is not like there weren't any non-Jewish bankers and money lenders.

Take a look at the Medici bank.

More specifically at the list of their customers.

All of the Cardinals in Rome had an account at one time.
 
Agent23 said:
Because it was a hated and low status profession that was verboten according to the bible.

It was the "somebody's got to do it" situation, coupled with "we can just shake them up/kill them" and cancel our debts.

And it is not like there weren't any non-Jewish bankers and money lenders.

Take a look at the Medici bank.

More specifically at the list of their customers.

All of the Cardinals in Rome had an account at one time.
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Do not forget Lombards.Once powerfull raiders,which become first bankers.And their name survived in Poland only in pawnshops,which was named in Poland as lombards.
Funny thing,considering that they never come to Poland....
 
Agent23 said:
Actually that is what made them more intellectually inclined.

The Jews high IQ and their strong community/in group preference is a direct example of harsh Darwinian selection in action.They were basically pushed into positions where they had to attain intellectual skills, and the Damocles sword hanging over them weeded out the dumber ones.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I’m gonna stop your right there with the ‘high Jewish IQ myth’.




Basically those studies have flaws and, like certain media outlets, more recent studies cite the previous ones as evidence. Thus allowing a narrative to be easily crafted. Never mind subjects like nepotism.
 
DarthOne said:
Yeah, I’m gonna stop your right there with the ‘high Jewish IQ myth’.




Basically those studies have flaws and, like certain media outlets, more recent studies cite the previous ones as evidence. Thus allowing a narrative to be easily crafted. Never mind subjects like nepotism.
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That’s really interesting. The claim of 115 is certainly overinflated. I’ve seen some studies that show a higher than average Ashkenazi IQ but lower than 115 which might be more reasonable.

There used to be a website called the Audacious Epigone and he talked about all kinds of interesting politically incorrect things about IQ. One of the things he discussed was what sorts of things correlate to verbal IQ and what correlates to mathematical IQ. All sorts of things correlate to IQ in general and it’s common sense - wealth, low criminality, etc. though he showed some studies which suggest that wealth correlates much more strongly with verbal IQ than mathematical IQ and that mathematical IQ has a strong negative correlation to criminality where verbal IQ does not. This seems to match with the two American groups with (alleged) higher IQs than WASPs, East Asians and Ashkenazic Jews. East Asians have high mathematical IQs and aren’t particularly wealthy but have way lower crime rates than whites and Ashkenazic Jews who have higher verbal IQ scores are disproportionately wealthy and powerful.

Unfortunately, that website seems to have been purged from the internet a while back.

Though I’ve seen a number of calculations that show that even with the high end 115 estimate that Ashkenazic Jews are way over represented in a number of fields.
 
ShieldWife said:
That’s really interesting. The claim of 115 is certainly overinflated. I’ve seen some studies that show a higher than average Ashkenazi IQ but lower than 115 which might be more reasonable.

There used to be a website called the Audacious Epigone and he talked about all kinds of interesting politically incorrect things about IQ. One of the things he discussed was what sorts of things correlate to verbal IQ and what correlates to mathematical IQ. All sorts of things correlate to IQ in general and it’s common sense - wealth, low criminality, etc. though he showed some studies which suggest that wealth correlates much more strongly with verbal IQ than mathematical IQ and that mathematical IQ has a strong negative correlation to criminality where verbal IQ does not. This seems to match with the two American groups with (alleged) higher IQs than WASPs, East Asians and Ashkenazic Jews. East Asians have high mathematical IQs and aren’t particularly wealthy but have way lower crime rates than whites and Ashkenazic Jews who have higher verbal IQ scores are disproportionately wealthy and powerful.

Unfortunately, that website seems to have been purged from the internet a while back.

Though I’ve seen a number of calculations that show that even with the high end 115 estimate that Ashkenazic Jews are way over represented in a number of fields.
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Middle man minorities as a rule are over represented in many fields because when the general population doesn't have a value system that values things like trade, education and certain skills then some one is going to fill the void or its not going to be filled period.

Also I hate the term over represented because it has been used to fuck us over, and fuck over the asians and other groups that work hard. Their is nothing special about success and what works for middle men minorities of all types can be applied by the majority populations and quite frequently is.
 
DarthOne said:
Yeah, I’m gonna stop your right there with the ‘high Jewish IQ myth’.




Basically those studies have flaws and, like certain media outlets, more recent studies cite the previous ones as evidence. Thus allowing a narrative to be easily crafted. Never mind subjects like nepotism.
Click to expand...

And on the Nazi bashing thread, we use a video from a man curiously sympathetic to NatSoc viewpoints apparently. Seriously, Leather Apron Club appears to have some hostility towards Jews.

Ironic.
 
Cherico said:
Middle man minorities as a rule are over represented in many fields because when the general population doesn't have a value system that values things like trade, education and certain skills then some one is going to fill the void or its not going to be filled period.

Also I hate the term over represented because it has been used to fuck us over, and fuck over the asians and other groups that work hard. Their is nothing special about success and what works for middle men minorities of all types can be applied by the majority populations and quite frequently is.
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It is true the “over representation” often suggests some kind of nefarious reason. That certainly shouldn’t be necessarily so, because there are countless reasons why demographic representation in various activities could exist for entirely benign reasons like ability, presence, culture, history, geographic features, and so on.

Though in the modern era, we are obsessed with over representation, usually selectively to villainize whites and/or men. Why are there proportionately more blacks in prison than whites? White racism obviously. Why are more than 50% of engineers men? Male sexism obviously. Whether or not over representation is benign or malign is determined for entirely political/ideological rather than factual reasons.
 
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