Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

*THASF* said:

How did Hamas infiltrate across the border when Israel's border is so fortified with listening posts, you can hear a gnat trying to cross it?

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Think about what you just said...
Congratulations, you have fallen to the hi tech obsessive, intelligence centered thought current not that uncommon in many western armies of the world.
But have you considered that... listening posts actually can't stop as much as a guy on a motorbike?
Listening posts can be a force *multiplier* in some conditions, but they absolutely are not an interchangeable substitute for guns. If you have force little to multiply, they don't mean much, they just let you know that you have a problem which you don't have enough guns on the field to handle.

Hamas has sent dozens of groups through multiple points to multiple locations at the same time. When applicable, they RPG'd the listening posts and then crossed, so that Israelis had no idea of the true scale of the attack as it crossed, just that something is happening, maybe a nuisance attack against the listening posts. It was a holiday, so it caught them at particularly low readiness.
Few quick reaction forces did get sent to investigate such odd reports, and they did get into fights with some Hamas groups... But the remaining ones not tied into combat by such went to attack whatever they wanted in the meantime, until few hours have passed and something more than a few SWAT and spec ops teams could be arranged.

mrttao said:

Summary of what this guy is saying:

> I work at the border, this is totally an inside job
> Sept 1 Israel govt confiscates all weapons from local security forces at israeli border villages for no explained reason
> Sept 10, village and kibutz local govt contact military saying there is border tension. are assured from top there is nothing wrong, cancel nothing, "everything is calm"
> day of attack, 15 breaches occur in the most heavily surveiled border in the world. It is WAS recorded and noted, despite the false claims that it was not noticed.
> thousands of gazans stream through those breaches on pickup trucks and hand gliders. and have 7 to 8 hours completely unopposed to slaughter and kidnap people back to gaza
> it takes 5 minutes from when the order is given to having an attack helicopter be on scene. If the order was given a single attack helicopter would have blown up those hand gliders and pickup trucks. and that would be the end of the attack. instead they were allowed free reign for 7-8 hours.
> suddenly USA is coming to render aid. This is fishy. Israel has tanks, gaza has pickup trucks. Israel has attack helicopters, gaza has hand gliders. what do we need USA aid for?

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This guy certainly was not in aviation. Who the hell keeps anything on a 5 minute scramble alert outside of wartime?
NATO quick reaction air policing is usually on a 15 minute scramble.

Marduk said:

This guy certainly was not in aviation. Who the hell keeps anything on a 5 minute scramble alert outside of wartime?

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Israel does.
Always.

In fact pilots have regular drills where, the alarm goes off and the pilots drop everything, literally, and run towards the door to jump into a prepped car and race towards the airplane.
The whole thing takes under 2 minutes. and they rotate whomever is on "readiness" duty.

Marduk said:

NATO quick reaction air policing is usually on a 15 minute scramble.

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15 minutes still would have been better than 7 to 8 hours with no response.
As well as a mysterious order from above to confiscate the guns of the israelies at the targeted communities ahead of time. (assuming that one actually happened)

mrttao said:

Israel does.
Always.

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As we saw, no, it doesn't.

mrttao said:

In fact pilots have regular drills where, the alarm goes off and the pilots drop everything, literally, and run towards the door to jump into a prepped car and race towards the airplane.
The whole thing takes under 2 minutes. and they rotate whomever is on "readiness" duty.

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Yes, pilots practice being on a 5 minute scramble. However there is no military in the world where they are on 5 minute scramble outside of wartime, and even in wartime it generally applies to some part of interceptor fleet only.

mrttao said:

15 minutes still would have been better than 7 to 8 hours with no response.

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It would be... Few helicopters were sent, there are even videos. But again, the sheer scale of the attack soaked up the quick reaction forces. What Israel had ready could probably handle an attack on the scale of few hundreds of militants before it did much damage, but unfortunately the attack numbered 2-3 thousands, split into many small groups, which was unprecedented scale for such.
The whole Apache fleet of Israel is 48, i doubt they could get more than 8 into air in less than few hours.

What many people also miss is how small the area of the operation is. Getting from built up parts of Gaza to the major targets of the Hamas attack is in most cases a 5-15 minute drive (especially with all terrain pickups and motorcycles), and once they got into built up areas, using attack helis without coordination from the ground gets much more complicated and creates extreme risk of friendly fire.

mrttao said:

As well as a mysterious order from above to confiscate the guns of the israelies at the targeted communities ahead of time. (assuming that one actually happened)

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Not mysterious, Israel is closer to European gun control politics than US, and i don't mean Switzerland.

Marduk said:

Yes, pilots practice being on a 5 minute scramble. However there is no military in the world where they are on 5 minute scramble outside of wartime, and even in wartime it generally applies to some part of interceptor fleet only.

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I am saying that israel military always has pilots on 5 minute scramble. even during "peace" times.

Especially after the 6 days war. where israel rapid scramble resulted in the bombing of egypts airfields before their planes could get into the sky. the few that managed to get into the sky were shot down with numerical superiority.
then the planes all went back to base, and rearmed with air to ground anti tank missiles. and destroyed all the egpytian tanks. then israeli tanks rolled over completely unopposed.
the 6 days war was actually really 1 hour of actual war followed by 6 days of unopposed conquest.

Besides which, what is the fucking point of having an airforce if you don't have ANY planes on a 5 minute scramble?

Marduk said:

Not mysterious, Israel is closer to European gun control politics than US, and i don't mean Switzerland.

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while true, in this case allegedly the central government was confiscating the guns of the "security forces" (pretty sure that means police and national guard) stationed in the attacked villages. not the guns of random citizens.
that is pretty unusual for israel.

Marduk said:

The whole Apache fleet of Israel is 48, i doubt they could get more than 8 into air in less than few hours.

What many people also miss is how small the area of the operation is. Getting from built up parts of Gaza to the major targets of the Hamas attack is in most cases a 5-15 minute drive (especially with all terrain pickups and motorcycles), and once they got into built up areas, using attack helis without coordination from the ground gets much more complicated and creates extreme risk of friendly fire.

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I find it extremely dubious that "risk of friendly fire" is why they let hamas slaughter entire villages completely unopposed.

mrttao said:

I am saying that israel military always has pilots on 5 minute scramble. even during "peace" times.

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doubt.jpg
Do you have a document for that?
How many?
What kind of aircraft?

mrttao said:

Especially after the 6 days war. where israel rapid scramble resulted in the bombing of egypts airfields before their planes could get into the sky. the few that managed to get into the sky were shot down with numerical superiority.

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In that context "rapid" meant pre-planned operation that took days to prepare. Yeah, Israeli military can get a whole lot more done in few days of preparation than less than hour.

mrttao said:

then the planes all went back to base, and rearmed with air to ground anti tank missiles. and destroyed all the egpytian tanks. then israeli tanks rolled over completely unopposed.
the 6 days war was actually really 1 hour of actual war followed by 6 days of unopposed conquest.

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And up to 5 days of prep.

mrttao said:

Besides which, what is the fucking point of having an airforce if you don't have ANY planes on a 5 minute scramble?

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It uses up aircraft, it uses up other equipment, pilots can't train, do paperwork or rest in the time, long story short, it costs non negligible amounts of money. If they had any of such aircraft available, it was too few to properly stop such a wide scale attack.

mrttao said:

while true, in this case allegedly the central government was confiscating the guns of the "security forces" (pretty sure that means police and national guard) stationed in the attacked villages. not the guns of random citizens.
that is pretty unusual for israel.

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Your confidence is absolutely misplaced as you naturally have no clue about the topic you are talking about.
Not police or national guard.
Civilian security teams, which are basically organized volunteer civilians.

The item also reported that a move three years ago to limit the availability of some types of firearms civilian security teams previously had access to left some of these teams fighting off heavily armed terrorists with pistols. The piece explained,


Approximately three years ago, the IDF began taking away firearms from some of these security teams due to the repeated theft of such weapons.

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mrttao said:

I find it extremely dubious that "risk of friendly fire" is why they let hamas slaughter entire villages completely unopposed.

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Let's say you are flying an Apache.
How do you know who is in a building when considering whether to fire a Hellfire or a salvo of 70mm rockets at it?
Hamas doesn't even wear military clothing a lot of the time.

TheRomanSlayer said:

This is really playing into the hands of extreme right-wing crazies that are screaming about 'muh Jewish role in mass immigration', which might possibly create a backlash from the white European population that had to deal with refugee-related problems since 2015.

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Are you so certain those are right wingers?

DarthOne said:

Are you so certain those are right wingers?

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Some are,some are resurgent nazis,and sime are black nationalists its a mixed bag.

mandragon said:

Some are,some are resurgent nazis,and sime are black nationalists its a mixed bag.

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Fascism isn’t right wing. I know we all got taught that in school, but it’s bupkis.

DarthOne said:

Fascism isn’t right wing. I know we all got taught that in school, but it’s bupkis.

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Yes that's why I said it's a mixed bag and cited nazis as a separate group....

mandragon said:

Yes that's why I said it's a mixed bag and cited nazis as a separate group....

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Fair point and my fault for not picking up on that.

Aldarion said:

המסמך המלא של משרד המודיעין: כיבוש עזה וטרנספר כולל לתושביו - שיחה מקומית

מסמך מטעם משרד המודיעין, שתוכנו המלא מתפרסם כאן לראשונה, ממליץ להעביר באופן כפוי את אוכלוסיית הרצועה לסיני לצמיתות

www.mekomit.co.il

Google translate:
The document also states that the US should be harnessed to the move so that it will put pressure on Egypt to take in the residents of Gaza, and to harness other European countries, and in particular Greece, Spain and Canada, to help take in and settle the refugees who will be evacuated from Gaza. The Ministry of Intelligence said that the document was not distributed through the ministry to US officials, but only to the Israeli government and security agencies.

So yeah. Genocide advocacy.

Still, rot starts at home.

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So basically israel wants to flush its toilets on us again, while their partisans here make criticism of this policy a prosecutable offense.

Israel gets ethnic cleansing, and its partisans in the west get an alienated population that can be mobilised against the native populations for political and economic power.

And they wonder why people like me, who were once very supportive of israel have turned hard against it.

Largo said:

So then according to your logic, how does Netanyahu stop killing Palestinians help retain his position? Either he stops and then is figuratively (and possibly literally) lynched by the Israeli population since Hamas did in fact commit atrocities. Or he doesn't stop, and the globalists do Evil Globalist Things blah blah blah.

"I mean, shit, it's what war is, you know? Once you in it, you in it. If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie. But we gotta fight."

I don't think anyone is disputing that Israeli intelligence massively fucked up one way or the other.

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He can:

1. Call for a ceasefire and prisoner exchange with Hamas, and potentially retain power, but still have massive internal and external problems to deal with.
2. Continue bombing Gaza into dust, kill the hostages with collateral damage, and then be ousted and replaced with some Ehud Barak stooge.

Neither option is good. #1 leaves him looking weak. #2 digs him deeper into a hole and puts Israel's fate in the hands of complete psychos.

Marduk said:

Think about what you just said...
Congratulations, you have fallen to the hi tech obsessive, intelligence centered thought current not that uncommon in many western armies of the world.
But have you considered that... listening posts actually can't stop as much as a guy on a motorbike?
Listening posts can be a force *multiplier* in some conditions, but they absolutely are not an interchangeable substitute for guns. If you have force little to multiply, they don't mean much, they just let you know that you have a problem which you don't have enough guns on the field to handle.

Hamas has sent dozens of groups through multiple points to multiple locations at the same time. When applicable, they RPG'd the listening posts and then crossed, so that Israelis had no idea of the true scale of the attack as it crossed, just that something is happening, maybe a nuisance attack against the listening posts. It was a holiday, so it caught them at particularly low readiness.
Few quick reaction forces did get sent to investigate such odd reports, and they did get into fights with some Hamas groups... But the remaining ones not tied into combat by such went to attack whatever they wanted in the meantime, until few hours have passed and something more than a few SWAT and spec ops teams could be arranged.

This guy certainly was not in aviation. Who the hell keeps anything on a 5 minute scramble alert outside of wartime?
NATO quick reaction air policing is usually on a 15 minute scramble.

Click to expand...

Maybe so, but the complete lack of a response for several hours was quite suspicious.

AnimalNoodles said:

Israel gets ethnic cleansing, and its partisans in the west get an alienated population that can be mobilised against the native populations for political and economic power.

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The grand irony is that it's the people who will be most willing to take this alienated population are those who absolutely do not like Israel at all, so, yeah, your narrative has just encountered a violent collision with a wall of reality.
Of course it will be the Muslim immigrants and the lefties who whine about apartheid in Palestine, not the Israel supporting neocons and other center-right.
And the leftists in America aren't even hiding where they stand on this:

*THASF* said:

He can:

1. Call for a ceasefire and prisoner exchange with Hamas, and potentially retain power, but still have massive internal and external problems to deal with.

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You really do not get what the actual feeling of most Jews and Israeli's is, if you think anyone but Hamas supporters want a ceasefire or that calling for one would actually help Netanyahu.

You don't seem to actually understand why Hamas was able to evade all the high-tech tools Israel had to monitor them; it's called landline telephones in their tunnels, which no listening post could intercept.

AnimalNoodles said:

So basically israel wants to flush its toilets on us again, while their partisans here make criticism of this policy a prosecutable offense.

Israel gets ethnic cleansing, and its partisans in the west get an alienated population that can be mobilised against the native populations for political and economic power.

And they wonder why people like me, who were once very supportive of israel have turned hard against it.

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I seriously doubt you were ever supportive of Israel. Also, we're the ones who installed those toilets; by propping up and protecting the Palestinians for decades.

*THASF* said:

Maybe so, but the complete lack of a response for several hours was quite suspicious.

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But there was no "complete lack of response".
You could even see videos of fighting by small units of SWAT, border guards, special ops, even some tanks from border units.
The problem is that the amount of high readiness units was not high enough for someone to be in all the places that were being attacked.

Thousands of rockets were launched as cover. But there were also drone strikes on the monitoring equipment that Israel uses on the border fence to watch what is happening. Heavy explosives and vehicles then created as many as 80 breaches in the security fence.

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Hamas didn't send a bunch of terror commando groups to the border that went through uninterrupted to attack locations.
They sent a shitload of groups, combined with gliders and massive rocket volley, in expectation that the sheer amount of situations Israelis will need to attend to will overwhelm their quick reaction resources, especially on a holiday, and it did.
Notably some groups attacked military outpost and got an element of surprise, in turn pinning down some of the troops that would be expected to react in an hour or two, in fighting before they had time to gear up and organize.
Some of these groups got stopped, but that tied down the quick reaction forces for a critical moment needed for the rest to get through.

• At 6:30 a.m. IST, the first air raid sirens were activated in southern and central Israel in response to Hamas missiles.[2] Concurrently, Hamas's first public statement was made by Muhammad Deif, the leader of the group's military wing, in a ten-minute recorded message published online during which he declared the start of "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood", and that "the enemy will understand that the time of their rampaging without accountability has ended,"[3] urging Palestinians to attack Israeli settlements with whatever weapons they had.[4][5]
• 07:00: The Supernova Music Festival near the Re'im secular kibbutz was attacked by Hamas militants, some of whom arrive via motorized paragliders.[6] Of the approximately 3,000 to 5,000 people at the festival, at least 260 were killed and many others abducted.[7]
• 07:40: The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) announced that Hamas militants had entered southern Israel and asked residents of Sderot and other cities to remain indoors. Hamas in the attack 1,400 are killed and two hundred kidnapped.[8]
• 08:15: Sirens were activated in Jerusalem following a rocket barrage that landed in the forested hills on the city's western edge.
• 08:23: Israel declared a state of alert for war, activating its reservists, in response to continued rocket attacks.
• 08:34: Israel announced that it had begun counteroffensive operations against Hamas.
• 10:47: The first Israeli Air Force (IAF) fighter jets attacked Gaza.
• 11:35: Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made his first statement about the conflict via Twitter,[9] declaring that Israel is at war.
• At 12:21, the IDF began operations to relieve cities in southern Israel as the number of rockets launched from Gaza increased to over 1,200.

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War alert and reservist activation about 1.5 hours after the festival massacre started.

Marduk said:

But there was no "complete lack of response".

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The narrative THASF seems to be putting forward is pretty simple:

"The IDF didn't respond like hypercompetent ubermensch, therefore this attack was allowed."

...It really is a pretty shallow argument.

It's also the sort of shitty argument that makes people take other issues he's somewhere closer to accurate on much less seriously. When you spew crap like this, your judgement is suspect on every other topic.

LordsFire said:

The narrative THASF seems to be putting forward is pretty simple:

"The IDF didn't respond like hypercompetent ubermensch, therefore this attack was allowed."

...It really is a pretty shallow argument.

It's also the sort of shitty argument that makes people take other issues he's somewhere closer to accurate on much less seriously. When you spew crap like this, your judgement is suspect on every other topic.

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That's not the entirety of the argument.

First off, how did Mossad or the Shin Bet not catch Hamas in the planning phase, noting movements of troops and materiel? Why weren't signs of an attack picked up weeks or months in advance? Keep in mind, this is the same Shin Bet that can keep track of one guy with a Coronavirus infection, but apparently can't see a massive attack like this being readied.

Secondly, Israel's border security is so sophisticated that they can pick up a pigeon crossing the border, so forgive me if I'm a little skeptical that they didn't notice the fleet of paragliders and pickup trucks cruising into town.

Third, once the attack started, why did it take longer than fifteen minutes for QRFs to respond? Why were Hamas allowed to rampage through neighborhoods killing and kidnapping people for literally hours and hours? I've seen the footage and the photos, and I swear to god, what few IDF were on the scene were literally caught by Hamas in their underwear. How does that happen?

Furthermore, if Denis Rancourt's numbers are correct, and the COVID-19 vaccines are actually killing 1 person in every 800 shots, then I calculate that they've killed 15,000 Israelis so far. Ten times as many as Hamas. Where is the outrage over that? Where is the outrage over Israelis being practically used as guinea pigs?

Before the Hamas attack, progress was being made on unraveling the global COVID-19 crime and getting at the perpetrators responsible. Now, people have split along predictable partisan lines.

I don't think you folks quite understand. We are dealing with a ruthless death cult that will stoop to literally anything.

Marduk said:

I don't believe them, i make my own conclusions. I just don't see the world through completely delusional contrarian mirror.

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That's what you do everytime Marduk as long as something or someone disagree with you.

Husky_Khan said:

*scrolls up*

Why post the same video twice? Literally the same page... same day... are you afraid the discussion of the video is going to bury the video link lol?

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I was at Halloween party when I saw said video and posted it, without realizing it was already posted by @DarthOne

Lord Sovereign said:

Paul Joseph Watson is not someone you should take too seriously.

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While that might be true for anyone, here it shows you say that because it goes against the narrative that Israel thinks about the benefit of West, which is clearly not the case and it is the second time something like this happens.


Frankly the only one who offered a valid argument and thought out well was @Abhorsen

I don't think there is a shred of evidence that Israel is anything but a liability at best if not a detrimental element at worst. It was understandable to a degree how they reacted the first few days, but now they seem to make their problem Europe's and North America's problem.