Fallout Perpetual Debate of Bethesda Versus Interplay/Obsidian Fallout World Design
- Thread starter ThatZenoGuy
- Start date
Time limits grant urgency, otherwise you end up with skyrim where 'THE WORLD IS ENDING!...But it kinda isn't!'
Also calling Fallout 1 boring is hilarious, have you actually played and beaten it?
I have. Fallout 1 is by far the weakest game structurally and the time limit unnecessarily punishes exploring or making honest mistakes. There's a reason Fallout 2 didn't put any timers on the main quest and that most modern game design shy away from it, mostly because timers don't actually serve to heighten tension but either end up punishing people for not playing the game in a specific way (which is what FO1 effectively did) or end up being so long as to be meaningless.
In other words, they're very hard to balance to get the effect you want while not ending up punishing players. Heck, in FO1 the initial timer was so tight that a misclick on the navigation map could mean you have to restart your game due to lost time.
Yeah replaying Fallout 1 now I can say it is kinda boring. The nostalgia from when I played it when I was younger has diminished a fair bit, even more so. It's like an inverse of my experience when I played Planescape Torment or Neverwinter Nights again.
Time limits are stupid in RPG games. I can't explore and do all the stuff I want if I have a time limit.
Say I wanna jist fully explore the map and do all the side quests. Nope I am forced to beat the main quest and anything else will prevent that.
FO 1 is boring.
I get bored trying to get anywhere in the game after building my character.
I also build my character in ways that I guess go against meta because yeah. It isn't fun.
2 is more fun, but 1 is worse then 3 or 4 hameplay wise.
Except that's complete nonsense, a misclick on the map won't make you restart lmao. You get 150 days and you can do it in like 75 pretty easily, and even going out of your way to do every quest before Necropolis will make you go under 150 days with ease.
If the time limit was 100 days, sure that'd be ROUGH, but 150 is ample.
You're supposed to do multiple playthroughs lmao, you going to bitch how a single character in pen and paper DnD is limited in what they can do and experience?
If you get bored in FO1 you might have ADHD and you should get it checked out, attention spans shouldn't be lower than five minutes. I am sorry for your condition.
There is a diffrence between pen and paper rpgs and video game ones.
You present me a world, I should be able to.explore without care of time.
But in DnD terms I have spent a while session in the starting town doing just random shit before, and exploring.
I can play plenty of games for hours straight.
It's just FO 1 is just. Boring. It is slow paced, like ugh slow.
FO 2 wasn't that bad pacing wise to me
Just 1.
I also prefer less turn based fighting and more real time fighting as it is to ke a better way to look at strategy
FO1 quests are generally faster paced than FO2, so no clue what you're on about. A lot of FO2 quests have insane backtracking and puzzle solving while FO1 quests generally are like "Go to place and shoot some people".
First person RPG's are somewhat limited in actual scale (no, infinite fetch quests does not make a good RPG!) because moving to 3d worlds basically makes exponential cost increases.
The classic Fallout games are actually shockingly simple in terms of interface, I mean dear god compare it to some other older RPG titles and you'll rip your hair out. SPECIAL is basically a shockingly effective 'simplified' RPG system, having a full-on GURPS video game would be even more nightmarish.
I will say that the Classic Fallouts have issues with quest design, some can be very intuitive and understandable, others are so retardedly cryptic that you basically have to resort to the internet to figure it out.
Getting into Mariposa in FO2 requires a point and click-esque puzzle to solve.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
FO1 and FO2 have bigger maps but most of the locations had significantly less detail and features then the later games. It's easy to make big maps when you have shit details and bland environments
Omg wow so amazing, infinitely better than Bethesda's FO3
Even the Oil Rig was mediocre design compared to the crawler
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Yeah sure you got bigger maps, 90% of those maps are copy pasted clones that have a few rooms edited to be different. The Bethesda games have more detail in a cell than there is in an entire map on either FO1 or FO2.
But sure let's act like the Interplay Fallout's are much better even though the series is only alive because of Bethesda.
Omg wow so amazing, infinitely better than Bethesda's FO3
Even the Oil Rig was mediocre design compared to the crawler
Yeah sure you got bigger maps, 90% of those maps are copy pasted clones that have a few rooms edited to be different. The Bethesda games have more detail in a cell than there is in an entire map on either FO1 or FO2.
But sure let's act like the Interplay Fallout's are much better even though the series is only alive because of Bethesda.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
Honestly objective analysis after doing some research, Bethesda factually is keeping the Fallout IP alive much better than Interplay ever did
Bethesda still has quite a few things they did wrong in the IP (Canvas Bag scandal, occasional Retcons, poor launch of 76) but technically have four games under their IP and Fallout 3 still sold more than FO1/2 combined while introducing a lot of new people to the IP.
If Fallout 3 wasn't made then Fallout franchise as a whole would be a dead IP only generation X would recognize
Bethesda still has quite a few things they did wrong in the IP (Canvas Bag scandal, occasional Retcons, poor launch of 76) but technically have four games under their IP and Fallout 3 still sold more than FO1/2 combined while introducing a lot of new people to the IP.
If Fallout 3 wasn't made then Fallout franchise as a whole would be a dead IP only generation X would recognize
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And elder Millennials thank you very much. I played all but Brotherhood of Steel when the Fallout games were still fairly fresh, and the only reason I didn't play Brotherhood of Steel was due to it be a CONSOLE game when I was a PC gamer.Honestly objective analysis after doing some research, Bethesda factually is keeping the Fallout IP alive much better than Interplay ever did
Bethesda still has quite a few things they did wrong in the IP (Canvas Bag scandal, occasional Retcons, poor launch of 76) but technically have four games under their IP and Fallout 3 still sold more than FO1/2 combined while introducing a lot of new people to the IP.
If Fallout 3 wasn't made then Fallout franchise as a whole would be a dead IP only generation X would recognize
I remember the days when the fandom was mainly kept alive by No Mutants Allowed, but there's ALSO a reason I use NMA as an insult because I ALSO remember the scandals around how NMA was so hostile to FO3 they actively hosted malware mods designed to break the game just because of how much they disliked the changes Bethesda made to the franchise.
That elitists attitude towards FO I find I've grown less and less tolerant of over the years, even though I initially did side more with the people who preferred the isometric, turned based RPG gameplay over Bethesda's FPS style game. Heck, I STILL prefer Isometric turned based RPGs and Third-Person Action over First Person perspectives, and think that BG3, the Owlcat Pathfinder and Rogue Trader games, and Divinity Original Sin games are superior RPGs to all the Bethesda RPGs put out in the last twenty years, and would love for a company to put out a proper Isometric Fallout RPG that went back to the more tabletop style SPECIAL system, but I'm also not going to sit here and pretend Bethesda's Fallout games are somehow BAD just because they don't adhere to my personal preferences.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
To add to this the toxicity for Bethesda is well documented with FO1/FO2 purists hurling and sending death threats to the concept artists of Fallout 3. Now looking back at that time frame, FO3 revitalized what was a dying series but because they changed the type of gameplay it seemed to be like some sort of sacrilege towards the existing fanbase even though it was made with good intentions. I wouldn't mind a Larian Studios giving a crack at a Fallout game but Bethesda's touch is pretty unique, there aren't really any games like it and I honestly like its gameplay formula. Should have Bethesda never mixed up the original gameplay formula? Maybe...but did they deserve that amount of criticism? I don't think so
Some of the criticism for Fallout 3 is silly, I've already debated a ton of Fallout 1&2 fans who didn't even know radiation was prominent in the original games and acted like Bethesda retconned the lore to have radiation
other FO1/FO2 "purists" even say Bethesda retconned the lore to include black people even though they existed in the og games....Fallout 3 was honestly more spiritually in tune with the Fallout 1 than Fallout 2 was.
Another thing to bitch about, where are all the weapons you could reasonably believe civilians owned pre-war? Everything is either 'most primitive weapon ever' and 'military-spec weapon likely still in service or recently superseded'.
FO2 weapons that seem non-military service but actually semi auto, full auto or at least double-action.
-223 pistol (and technically the rifles it was built from
-Mauser 9mm
-10mm pistol
-14mm pistol (hunting handgun)
-Desert eagle
-.44 revolver
-Needler pistol (apparently for scientists?)
-10mm SMG
-Greasegun
-Tommy gun
-Assault Rifle
-Hunting rifle
-Laser pistol (specifically is a civilian model)
A decent lineup of weapons which are either explicitly out of military service, or so outdated they wouldn't be in service.
FO4 has...
-10mm pistol
-Deliverer
-Submachinegun (tommy gun)
And uhh, that appears to be it?
Gunrunners and any aspiring weapon craftsmen would almost certainly base weapons on pre-war designs, if not outright refurbishing them. But apparently in the entire area of Boston only three guns were used in pre-war life, or at least survived to postwar!?
FO2 weapons that seem non-military service but actually semi auto, full auto or at least double-action.
-223 pistol (and technically the rifles it was built from
-Mauser 9mm
-10mm pistol
-14mm pistol (hunting handgun)
-Desert eagle
-.44 revolver
-Needler pistol (apparently for scientists?)
-10mm SMG
-Greasegun
-Tommy gun
-Assault Rifle
-Hunting rifle
-Laser pistol (specifically is a civilian model)
A decent lineup of weapons which are either explicitly out of military service, or so outdated they wouldn't be in service.
FO4 has...
-10mm pistol
-Deliverer
-Submachinegun (tommy gun)
And uhh, that appears to be it?
Gunrunners and any aspiring weapon craftsmen would almost certainly base weapons on pre-war designs, if not outright refurbishing them. But apparently in the entire area of Boston only three guns were used in pre-war life, or at least survived to postwar!?
See, even though i am a huge fan of Larian studio and Owlcat games RPGs as well and that they are 100 percent better RPGs, I prefer first person RPGs myself just due to the immersion I get with them.
I feel I am actually in the game that way.
It'd why I love the FO series. I am also a huge fan of over the shoulder RPGs as well, which are also a lot out there.
But isometric ones can definitely be fun in thjer own way.
Wasn't the Grease Gun from Fallout 2 stated to of been stockpiled in large numbers from National Guard armored in some flavor text somewhere?
And despite flavor text stating they were vaguely out of use, you can find multiple Ak-112 Assault Rifles at The Glow/West Tek in Fallout 1 and I'm pretty sure at the Sierra Army Depot in the sequel. Outdated but still in service even if not in active use.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
I genuinely don't understand if Bethesda Haters become more retarded from the hate towards Bethesda lol.
@Husky_Khan @Zachowon @S'task
@Husky_Khan @Zachowon @S'task
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
I genuinely don't understand if Bethesda Haters become more retarded from the hate towards Bethesda lol.
@Husky_Khan @Zachowon @S'task
After Starfield Bethesda deserves all the hate it gets.