United States 2nd Amendment Legal Cases and Law Discussion

Am Australian, can personally confirm most of it. Dude had like 60-something IQ, and was found on fire. Not 100% certain about "I AM THE HOSTAGE" but it's possible.

Gun also 100% belonged to the feds.

Again, was looking more for actual documentation of the details you’re pointing at to show precisely why it’s suspicious.

Not doubting you’re Australian or have noticed some “odd things” most of your countrymen are oblivious to.

That said, more verification would be great, in the event that I can convincingly pass the info onto friends or family who already dislike the government, as is (but may need a few more “nudges” to properly wake up). At this point, I don’t trust the Establishment Press to tell me the same things as you have, so any alternative sources that help ween them off their “Trust the mainstream media!” conditioning would help greatly.
 
Again, was looking more for actual documentation of the details you’re pointing at to show precisely why it’s suspicious.

Not doubting you’re Australian or have noticed some “odd things” most of your countrymen are oblivious to.

That said, more verification would be great, in the event that I can convincingly pass the info onto friends or family who already dislike the government, as is (but may need a few more “nudges” to properly wake up). At this point, I don’t trust the Establishment Press to tell me the same things as you have, so any alternative sources that help ween them off their “Trust the mainstream media!” conditioning would help greatly.
Mate just google some of this shit, haha. Granted most of it is well hidden/censored, but I...Really cannot be assed looking for it again because of the hassle. Sorry. X_X
 
Mate just google some of this shit, haha. Granted most of it is well hidden/censored, but I...Really cannot be assed looking for it again because of the hassle. Sorry. X_X

Sorry to hear that, but understandable.

Mostly, I get tired of wading through all the “Gun control works!” crap they shoehorn into there whenever Australia comes up, when I just want the facts and no else. Will see what I can find as soon as I muster up the endurance to roll my eyes and snort derisively every few seconds, though.
 
Sorry to hear that, but understandable.

Mostly, I get tired of wading through all the “Gun control works!” crap they shoehorn into there whenever Australia comes up, when I’m just looking for facts. Will see what I can find as soon as I muster up the endurance, though.
I wish you the best of luck, I know how challenging this crap can be to find. The internet is scoured on a daily basis to ensure truth is hidden.
 
I wish you the best of luck, I know how challenging this crap can be to find. The internet is scoured on a daily basis to ensure truth is hidden.

That, I can easily believe.

But even if I didn’t, what’s definitely true is deliberate scouring or not, I can’t count all the stuff I’ve seen there one moment that disappeared without a trace the next. So, at the very least, “The internet is forever!” has its limits.

At any rate, I suppose internet archives will become increasingly useful, though I’ve heard about them Stalinizing and taking down pages, as well. Not to mention copyright suits that might arise from them storing others’ content, though I’m sure others who are more tech-savvy than me will find ways of circumventing that, anyway.
 
This would fly in the face of the actual precedent the Founding Fathers set, specifically that they fully endorsed and expected private citizens to own top-of-the-line warships, explosives, and artillery. Fur traders commonly packed small cannons on their riverboats and the Constitution includes offering private ship of war owners letters of Marque and Reprisal in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11.

The arms they intended to guarantee went way, way beyond infantry weapons, and the citizen militia was expected to bring the temporal equivalent of their own battleships and tanks to the fight.
There's quite a big difference between armed merchant ships and privateers and "top of the line warships" -- the entire United States didn't have anything that even remotely resembled a top of the line warship until way, way after the time of the Founding Fathers. Even the vaunted 'super frigates' weren't even close to being a ship of the line.

As for militia artillery, those were expensive and typically purchased by towns as a whole for the use of the local militia, not privately owned by a single person. So the historical precedent on those can fairly said to be grey. It's quite clearcut for small arms, but beyond that less so.
 
Good news: the House is doing something about the Pistol Brace Ban!

Article:
US House passes ATF pistol brace repeal resolution with 219-210 vote, sending it to the Senate:
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There's quite a big difference between armed merchant ships and privateers and "top of the line warships" -- the entire United States didn't have anything that even remotely resembled a top of the line warship until way, way after the time of the Founding Fathers. Even the vaunted 'super frigates' weren't even close to being a ship of the line.

As for militia artillery, those were expensive and typically purchased by towns as a whole for the use of the local militia, not privately owned by a single person. So the historical precedent on those can fairly said to be grey. It's quite clearcut for small arms, but beyond that less so.
I would say you're splitting hairs on warships, there's quite a big difference in firepower, but absolutely none in terms of legality. There's absolutely no reason to think the US government, which was good with entire privately owned artillery regiments, frigates, and would suddenly say "Oh my, we were good with 24-pounders but these 30-pounder cannons on your privately owned ship are just too much, we better not have these in private hands."

As far as militia artillery being publically owned by towns, you're just plain wrong.

Most fur traders packed at least one cannon on their riverboats for fighting off indian attacks.
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We also have numerous examples of private ownership, often in bulk. F'rex we have receipts and records from that era showing that Simeon Potter personally owned ten cannons and ten swivel guns, and that Ephraim Bowen negotiated to purchase some from him for the Continental army.

In another letter, Colonel John Glover assured a man that if the two cannons the man loaned him were lost, Glover would reimburse him to the tune of four hundred pounds.

That's beyond the numerous privately owned artillery companies and regiments, like Gale's Independent Company of Artillery, The Artillery Company of Westerly and Charlestown, or Smith's Artillery in Maryland. And, well, again the Privateers with estimates going up to 2000 privately owned warships.
 
I would say you're splitting hairs on warships, there's quite a big difference in firepower, but absolutely none in terms of legality. There's absolutely no reason to think the US government, which was good with entire privately owned artillery regiments, frigates, and would suddenly say "Oh my, we were good with 24-pounders but these 30-pounder cannons on your privately owned ship are just too much, we better not have these in private hands."
Actually they did exactly that -- privateers were often allowed to buy smaller-caliber cannons from military stocks and/or salvage, but not larger, heavier calibers. They may not have been outright prohibited from owning them in theory, but the government did not want to see them in private hands and succeeded in keeping them very, very rare -- a nine-pounder was considered an incredibly big, heavy gun by actual privateer and pirate standards.

Note here the entire chapter in Black Sails that goes on and on about the one long nine that the pirates had and how this was Israel Hands' personal treasure that he absolutely loved and babied, and how just this one gun was a decisive battle winner against other pirates because it was more powerful and longer-range than anything another pirate ship would have. Note also the archaeological dives on Blackbeard's flagship, confirming that it did indeed have 30-40 guns as claimed by historical sources (and often dismissed as exaggeration by later scholars), but also finding that the guns ranged from half-pound to six-pounders, nothing heavier.
 
As far as militia artillery being publically owned by towns, you're just plain wrong.

Most fur traders packed at least one cannon on their riverboats for fighting off indian attacks.


We also have numerous examples of private ownership, often in bulk. F'rex we have receipts and records from that era showing that Simeon Potter personally owned ten cannons and ten swivel guns, and that Ephraim Bowen negotiated to purchase some from him for the Continental army.

In another letter, Colonel John Glover assured a man that if the two cannons the man loaned him were lost, Glover would reimburse him to the tune of four hundred pounds.

That's beyond the numerous privately owned artillery companies and regiments, like Gale's Independent Company of Artillery, The Artillery Company of Westerly and Charlestown, or Smith's Artillery in Maryland. And, well, again the Privateers with estimates going up to 2000 privately owned warships.

I said most militia artillery was publicly owned, not all of it. The fact that it was publicly owned and stored in arsenal rather than private property is demonstrated by, oh, a certain famous attempt by the British to disarm local militias by seizing the local armories.
 
I said most militia artillery was publicly owned, not all of it. The fact that it was publicly owned and stored in arsenal rather than private property is demonstrated by, oh, a certain famous attempt by the British to disarm local militias by seizing the local armories.
No, I don't think that proves it at all. It merely establishes that the arsenal was a desirable first target, which may have been size, ease of locating it, or a range of other factors. Coming up with "That proves most militia artillery was publically owned" is stretching like Reed Richards.

Now if you have some actual numbers or records we might have something to work with.
 
Actually they did exactly that -- privateers were often allowed to buy smaller-caliber cannons from military stocks and/or salvage, but not larger, heavier calibers. They may not have been outright prohibited from owning them in theory, but the government did not want to see them in private hands and succeeded in keeping them very, very rare -- a nine-pounder was considered an incredibly big, heavy gun by actual privateer and pirate standards.

Note here the entire chapter in Black Sails that goes on and on about the one long nine that the pirates had and how this was Israel Hands' personal treasure that he absolutely loved and babied, and how just this one gun was a decisive battle winner against other pirates because it was more powerful and longer-range than anything another pirate ship would have. Note also the archaeological dives on Blackbeard's flagship, confirming that it did indeed have 30-40 guns as claimed by historical sources (and often dismissed as exaggeration by later scholars), but also finding that the guns ranged from half-pound to six-pounders, nothing heavier.
Should probably answer this one as well because it's so flabbergasting. Black Sails is a fictional pirate story, it has no bearing on real life. It's hard to believe you'd take it as truth. Do you believe that

As far as your claims on cannon size, stuff and nonsense, 9 pounders were nowhere near rare or special.

Conneticut-built American Privateer Anaconda: eighteen mixed 9 and 12 pounder cannon.

American Privateer Racer: A mix of 9 and 12 pounders.

American Privateer Hussar: mix of 6 and 12 pounders.

American Privateer Rapid: twelve 12 pounders

Baltimore Privateer Grampus: No less than nine 18 pounders

Privateer Dart: At least one 12 pounder

Privateer Dolphin: Two 9 pounders and ten 12 pounders

I could go on and on. Nine pounders were nowhere near high-end be-all and end-all of firepower, they were towards the bottom and the fact that you are getting your facts from a fictional TV show, one borrowing characters like Israel Hands from Treasure Island no less, is just embarrassing. Do you also get your "facts" on archeology from the Indiana Jones movies?
 
Actually they did exactly that -- privateers were often allowed to buy smaller-caliber cannons from military stocks and/or salvage, but not larger, heavier calibers. They may not have been outright prohibited from owning them in theory, but the government did not want to see them in private hands and succeeded in keeping them very, very rare -- a nine-pounder was considered an incredibly big, heavy gun by actual privateer and pirate standards.
I can buy a 20 pounder parrot riffle from Hern Iron works right now. I won't because its 11 grand without the gun carriage, but I can. They also have an 8 inch siege mortar.
 
I can buy a 20 pounder parrot riffle from Hern Iron works right now. I won't because its 11 grand without the gun carriage, but I can. They also have an 8 inch siege mortar.
That... actually tracks surprisingly well with what cannons cost back then. Yeah, cannons weren't even particularly expensive in those days either.

We know Ephraim Bowen bought 4 four pounders along with 200 rounds of shot, their carriages, swivels, and all the tools to load and fire them for 700 dollars (He bargained down from a thousand).

Adjusted to modern dollars that's about $23,000 for the lot, which isn't exactly cheap but also isn't some staggering expense only the richest of the rich could manage. You could reasonably expect that any middle-class man who wanted a cannon had one, possibly several. Even upper poor people could probably pick one up. It wouldn't be available to the poorest (A working poor man with no property could expect room, board, and around sixty-five dollars a year so he wouldn't be dishing out five grand for a cannon on those wages) but probably in the area of a nice car. Transporting your personal cannon was actually often a bigger headache than buying it in the first place, there's actually numerous references to people just blasting off their personal cannons to celebrate and causing a nuisance.

That purchase along with many others is detailed in this book:


This book details a number of prices for things in that era.
 
Just wanna' leave this here:




Another way the Feds might carry out gun confiscation? Going after the shops … or at least, targeting a few prominent ones in order to send a message that cows the rest into submission. :oops:
 
Video summarizing what happened in the Illinois AWB case hearing:


TL;DW:
-Some of the judges are salty they aren't on the Supreme Court.
-Some of the state arguments against guns are so bad, anti-gun judges were calling them out.
-Best case scenario is the final ruling being the legal equivalent of a shitpost, a ruling so bad that it gets overturned by a higher court.
 
I could go on and on. Nine pounders were nowhere near high-end be-all and end-all of firepower, they were towards the bottom and the fact that you are getting your facts from a fictional TV show, one borrowing characters like Israel Hands from Treasure Island no less, is just embarrassing. Do you also get your "facts" on archeology from the Indiana Jones movies?

The details I mentioned are from the original book, not the TV show, and I specifically mentioned that it was fictional but very well researched. I also mentioned the actual archeological finds on Queen Anne's Revenge, which you are completely ignoring. As for your own citations, half of the ones you're pointing to are armament as fitted after they became official naval warships, and also ignores the difference between long guns and carronades.
 

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