A few ASB religious sorting scenarios

raharris1973

Well-known member
1) ASBs transport all the worlds Jews in 1300 AD to uninhabited New Zealand with all their personal property, including houses, money, tools, animals, books, gardens, community buildings (synagogues). These all vanish from where they were in Europe, Africa, and Asia. Any gentile servants or guests at their homes do not come along.

to avoid starvation, their supplies are also augmented by well distributed grain silos marked in Hebrew letters ‘for leavened bread this year’,‘for unleavened bread this year’ and ‘seed grain for planting, not eating’.

This TL works under the assumption the first Maori did not arrive until 1320, so the Jews have at least 20 years as the first and only humans in NZ.

what happens to the old world missing its Jews and Jewish New Zealand over the ensuing centuries?

2) in 1300, ASBs ‘sort’ the Mediterranean world, moving all Christians in Asia, Africa north of Ethiopia, and the Mediterranean islands onto the geographically and culturally most proximate part of Europe. The ASBs move all Muslims in Europe and the Mediterranean islands to the geographically and culturally most proximate parts of Africa and Asia. Finally they move all Jews from the Christian and Muslim majority lands of Europe, Asia, and Africa, except Ethiopia, and move them to the now uninhabited archipelagos of the Mediterranean. This having been accomplished, what happens next?

3) ASBs studying the long history of Russo-Turkish wars decide they want to intervene and limit them by effecting a magical teleportation population exchange of Ottoman Christians for Russian Empire Muslims. They want to do an exchange when the effected populations are as equal as possible to allow each society and each group of teleports to cope best. When is about the best year or decade for the ASBs to accomplish an exchange where numbers of Ottoman Christians and Muslim Russians match as closely as possible? If even #s are never possible you can bring in members of a third religion to ‘balance the books.’
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
An additional one, not religious -

4) Just like scenario 1 ASBs move a people to uninhabited New Zealand in 1300, but it is not the Jews, it is the Romani people.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
1) ASBs transport all the worlds Jews in 1300 AD to uninhabited New Zealand with all their personal property, including houses, money, tools, animals, books, gardens, community buildings (synagogues). These all vanish from where they were in Europe, Africa, and Asia. Any gentile servants or guests at their homes do not come along.

to avoid starvation, their supplies are also augmented by well distributed grain silos marked in Hebrew letters ‘for leavened bread this year’,‘for unleavened bread this year’ and ‘seed grain for planting, not eating’.

This TL works under the assumption the first Maori did not arrive until 1320, so the Jews have at least 20 years as the first and only humans in NZ.

what happens to the old world missing its Jews and Jewish New Zealand over the ensuing centuries?

2) in 1300, ASBs ‘sort’ the Mediterranean world, moving all Christians in Asia, Africa north of Ethiopia, and the Mediterranean islands onto the geographically and culturally most proximate part of Europe. The ASBs move all Muslims in Europe and the Mediterranean islands to the geographically and culturally most proximate parts of Africa and Asia. Finally they move all Jews from the Christian and Muslim majority lands of Europe, Asia, and Africa, except Ethiopia, and move them to the now uninhabited archipelagos of the Mediterranean. This having been accomplished, what happens next?

3) ASBs studying the long history of Russo-Turkish wars decide they want to intervene and limit them by effecting a magical teleportation population exchange of Ottoman Christians for Russian Empire Muslims. They want to do an exchange when the effected populations are as equal as possible to allow each society and each group of teleports to cope best. When is about the best year or decade for the ASBs to accomplish an exchange where numbers of Ottoman Christians and Muslim Russians match as closely as possible? If even #s are never possible you can bring in members of a third religion to ‘balance the books.’

1.Nothing really happen to Europe - we have christian bankers by that time.The same goes for muslims.
Only change - Poland in OTL become jewish paradise,becouse first kings and later gentry supported jews,at a cost of local townspeople.Now - no jews,town in Poland get richer,and gentry lost part of power - or,rather never get it.Our state would survive.
N.Zealand - all kiwi died ,becouse they are antisemites.:)

2.Christians fight each other,just like muslim.Muslim corsairs enslave jews on islands.

3.Tsar belived,that Moscow is 3th Rome.So,they still would want second./constantinopole/
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
5) the ASBs move the Jews of the world to Madagascar in 645 AD, shortly after the Islamic conquest of the Middle East. Jews lived all around the Mediterranean and Middle East at this time, maybe as far north as Gaul/Francia and the Black Sea also.

Things work like in the New Zealand scenario. We will assume that Madagascar was uninhabited with Austrinesians not arriving until 650 AD, at least in this universe. [1st sustained settlement of humans in Madagascar in OTL is still widely debated].
 

ATP

Well-known member
5) the ASBs move the Jews of the world to Madagascar in 645 AD, shortly after the Islamic conquest of the Middle East. Jews lived all around the Mediterranean and Middle East at this time, maybe as far north as Gaul/Francia and the Black Sea also.

Things work like in the New Zealand scenario. We will assume that Madagascar was uninhabited with Austrinesians not arriving until 650 AD, at least in this universe. [1st sustained settlement of humans in Madagascar in OTL is still widely debated].


Nothing change,again.Except muslims belivng that prophet removed jews,which could made them more bold in their conqest.
WAIT !!!!!! Visigots Spain fall partially thanks to jewish 5th column.Now,without them,arabs take not almost entire country,but ,let say,half.
And,we have one Visigoth Kingdom opposing them.Franks do not need fight muslims - mean they could conqer more lands on East.We have earlier reconquista,possible with taking part of Africa - there were Berbre christans there,and all berbers hated arabs.
So,this time,you created big change.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I think a lot of people in Eastern Europe would say "good riddance".

Unfortunately, Yep. An interesting question would be what Romani reproduction patterns will look like over the next several centuries: Eugenic, neutral, or dysgenic?
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Unfortunately, Yep. An interesting question would be what Romani reproduction patterns will look like over the next several centuries: Eugenic, neutral, or dysgenic?

None at all.
Ask the Maoris about it, and they'd tell you that the Gypsies tasted not-too-bad.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Another change for Madagascar jews - with Visigoths stil holding in Spain,Franks conqer East land,including slavic tribes.
In OTL Obodryci was Charlemagne vassals - now,they would be part of his kingdom,just like other tribes till Vistula river.
Weaker vikings, and we have kind of WRE again - but,not let by germans only like HRE later in OTL.

No Poland,Czech or Hungary,but Russians would develop exactly the same.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
1) do Italians become the predominant banking class of Western Europe? In the PLC, is it Italians, Germans, or locals? In lithuania, Russia, Romania, is it Greeks and Armenians who dominate stereotypically “Jewish” professions?

How does the Jewish mash-up society in New Zealand evolve? Do they start to trade with Polynesians who make landfall? Follow their routes back to other parts of Polynesia? Ever find Australia?

2) religious sorting in the med. ATP said Muslim corsairs enslave the Jews, but aren’t the Italian city states navally dominant at this time, so they are the ones levying tribute on island Jews or doing enslaving?

5) Jewish Madagascar- clearly many changes in Mediterranean an Middle Eastern world, but how does Madagascar develop? How far do Jews trade? Will they haves traded to Ethiopia, Yemen, India, within 300 or 500 years? How strong are they by the time of European age of exploration?

4) Romani Madagascar- Disadvantage compared to Jews, much lower literacy and household ownership of printed material. Still have skills in farming, handcrafts, metalworking. Not all destined for cannibal bait.

3) Russian and Ottoman Empire Muslim and Christian swap. I don’t know what year would be best.

1st effects would be massive economic and administrative disruption. In terms of economic skills and productivity profile, I think the Ottomans would get the short end of the stick. But, Ottoman Christians happiness at being under a Christian rather than Muslim regime would last all of five minutes before transported people’s would want things improved.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
How does the Jewish mash-up society in New Zealand evolve? Do they start to trade with Polynesians who make landfall? Follow their routes back to other parts of Polynesia? Ever find Australia?
Unless there are more land owning Secret Jews than I am given to understand, the grain is not enough. There's neither expertise nor sufficient livestock. If you want an ASB displaced purely Jewish island nation to be viable with only grain to tide them over to the first harvest you need to make the move when there are still large numbers of Jewish farmers before Hadrian's expulsion is implemented. And New Zealand is probably the better target.

Madagascar is considered to have been a nonviable destination in the 20th century. With 7th century farming technology it's probably hopeless.

In ASB's place I'd pick a larger target and also move Ethiopia. It's probably possible to find space for Australia's aborigine population in sub-saharan Africa or the Americas.

In 645 my inclination would be to move the Muslims. Sorting won't make them non-expansionist. I'm thinking move them to a climatically similar region of North America and the North Americans thereby displaced into Mesopotamia, moving Jews and Christians in Mesopotamia west and any Zoroastrians or "other" east. I'm not sure the Jews are disentangleable at this point, but maybe if I stretch the Ethiopians along the east bank of the Nile and into Israel -- moving any remaining Christians in that region to the to the west bank of the Nile -- European Jews can be mixed in with Ethiopians who can teach them how to agriculture.

With nothing worthwhile to loot (I forget when metalworking developed, but I think it started in the same region the Muslims would be displacing the inhabitants from) they'll hopefully lose their appetite for conquest. They're not going to get past the Malaria belt to the south for a while.
 

ATP

Well-known member
1) do Italians become the predominant banking class of Western Europe? In the PLC, is it Italians, Germans, or locals? In lithuania, Russia, Romania, is it Greeks and Armenians who dominate stereotypically “Jewish” professions?

How does the Jewish mash-up society in New Zealand evolve? Do they start to trade with Polynesians who make landfall? Follow their routes back to other parts of Polynesia? Ever find Australia?

2) religious sorting in the med. ATP said Muslim corsairs enslave the Jews, but aren’t the Italian city states navally dominant at this time, so they are the ones levying tribute on island Jews or doing enslaving?

5) Jewish Madagascar- clearly many changes in Mediterranean an Middle Eastern world, but how does Madagascar develop? How far do Jews trade? Will they haves traded to Ethiopia, Yemen, India, within 300 or 500 years? How strong are they by the time of European age of exploration?

4) Romani Madagascar- Disadvantage compared to Jews, much lower literacy and household ownership of printed material. Still have skills in farming, handcrafts, metalworking. Not all destined for cannibal bait.

3) Russian and Ottoman Empire Muslim and Christian swap. I don’t know what year would be best.

1st effects would be massive economic and administrative disruption. In terms of economic skills and productivity profile, I think the Ottomans would get the short end of the stick. But, Ottoman Christians happiness at being under a Christian rather than Muslim regime would last all of five minutes before transported people’s would want things improved.

1.Yes,italians.But - greek and armenians would contribute,too.
1b.Unlikely,jews was merchants,not sailors.
2. 1300AD - italians had good fleets,but not good enough to schield all or even most islands from corsairs.Besides,they were merchants,they would not send fleet without profit.Saving jews would not get them money.
5.Not trade at all - in 645 they would need fleets of oceanic ships for that,and they were no sailors.They would survive on Madagascar till European would come.Or maybe arabs ? arabs were sailors.
4.Yes,gipsies would manage to fight maori - they have weapons.
3.Yes,turks would lost many of their artizans and merchants with greeks and armenians.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I had not known it either. I just guessed, and googled, and it turns out yes.

I wonder if they developed an immunity to the human equivalent of Mad Cow Disease like the Papua New Guinea human cannibals apparently did through evolution.
 

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