A "take" on the Washington Naval Treaty - It was a solution to a problem that was more apparent than real

raharris1973

Well-known member
My personal interpretation, or "take" on the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922, is that it was a solution to a problem that was more apparent than real.

What was the apparent problem? That without arms control, unlimited warship building would consume national budgets and lead to mutual Anglo-American-Japanese hostility and probably naval war.

Why was the problem more apparent, than "real"? Because it was a "self-solving" problem. 1. None of the three powers could have afforded an unlimited battleship race. All three had a somewhat popularly responsive representative government that would have restrained spending before it crowded out too many other private sector and public sector priorities even without a treaty. For at least one of the powers,Japan, the Navy's 'wants' for its expansion program was likely beyond the capacity of its industrial base in a physical sense. That is even before we count the surprise reconstruction bill imposed by the Great Kanto earthquake. 2. Internationally unregulated battleship building need not cause war nor hostility at all. To paraphrase the NRA, 'battleships don't kill people, political leaders deploying navies offensively kill people'. Anglo-American tensions in the post-WWI decades centered on how much access they would grant to each other's markets. They never rose to a level of hostility where military force was threatened or contemplated to resolve that problem. Both countries having unlimited numbers of battleships would not have conjured up a military/naval confrontation or war between the two. Tariff wars and naval wars operated on a separate plane by the twentieth century, at least where great powers capable of defending themselves (as opposed to small banana republics) were concerned.

I challenge anybody to come a scenario where lack of naval arms control turns the peaceful Anglo-American naval equation on its head, and we end up suspending our disbelief and calling it plausible.

People may have bought into the idea at the time, but they were shallow, not systematic thinkers, allowing the extremely vague equation of competition/disagreement over markets + competition in #s of warships = naval war. That equation is completely unproved without doing the homework of defining several intermediate variables.
 
Here's the problem, in a nutshell:

British pride dictated that the RN be the largest navy in the world. The British public would not accept less.

American pride dictated that the USN be capable of winning against anyone. The US also had the financial and physical resources to out build everyone.

The Japanese saw the US as their most likely future opponent and was hell-bent on being able to best the USN in the Pacific.

You can see where this is going without something to halt the exorbitantly ruinous circle of one-upsmanship.
 
You can see where this is going without something to halt the exorbitantly ruinous circle of one-upsmanship.
You have repeated the argument for it causing an unlimited and expensive arms race. [and ignored eventual limiting factors discussed in the OP]

You have not provided any argument, at all, that an expensive arms race = a naval war

Related back to the first point. Pride "dictates" what pride dictates, until it costs too much...in taxes, in services or amenities missed, in debt, in inflation, in work hours. Pride can also "dictate" all it wants but cannot magic natural resource deposits of iron ore, coal, oil, skilled metallurgical engineers into existence instantly, to allow Japan to build faster/better against the British and American than the Naval ratios to the British and Americans they were willing to grant it by treaty anyway.
 
Here is a wonderful test of the *urgency* and *dire necessity* of the Washington Naval Treaty for preserving peace/preventing war.

I concede, during the lifetime of the Treaty, 1922-1936, when it was observed, there was no war between the Five Signatory Powers: US, UK, Japan, France, Italy

However, imagine no Five Power Naval Treaty, 1922-1936:

1. How much likelier is the Pacific War between the USA and Japan to start during those years, *at least* five, if not more, years of the historic schedule? Why?
2. How much likelier is the Pacific War between the British Empire and Japan to start during those years, *at least* five, if not more, years of the historic schedule? Why?
3. Is an Anglo-American War realistically likely to start in those years, at all? Why?
4. Is a Franco-Italian War likely to start in those years, four or more years ahead of schedule? Why?
5. Is an Anglo-Italian War likely to start in those years, four or more years ahead of schedule? Why?
6. Is an Anglo-French War realistically likely to start in those years, at all? Why?

I am a skeptic to 'yes' answers to any of those questions, especially 3 and 6. Convincing 'why's seem to be lacking.
 
You have repeated the argument for it causing an unlimited and expensive arms race. [and ignored eventual limiting factors discussed in the OP]

You have not provided any argument, at all, that an expensive arms race = a naval war

Related back to the first point. Pride "dictates" what pride dictates, until it costs too much...in taxes, in services or amenities missed, in debt, in inflation, in work hours. Pride can also "dictate" all it wants but cannot magic natural resource deposits of iron ore, coal, oil, skilled metallurgical engineers into existence instantly, to allow Japan to build faster/better against the British and American than the Naval ratios to the British and Americans they were willing to grant it by treaty anyway.
I think,that you are right.
And,that bigger battleships would help germans and soviets,becouse Japan and England would spend too much money on battleships to develop other weapons.

Maybe this time germans manage to take England in 1940,and soviets take Manchuria in 1940?
 
I think,that you are right.
And,that bigger battleships would help germans and soviets,becouse Japan and England would spend too much money on battleships to develop other weapons.

Maybe this time germans manage to take England in 1940,and soviets take Manchuria in 1940?
oh, come on, let's not go overboard.

I could imagine, the Japanese Army and Navy getting more at each other's throats over spending, and may find the China war unaffordable after straining on naval spending in the 1920s.
 
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oh, come on, let's not go overboard.

I could imagine, the Japanese Army and Navy getting more at each other's throats over spending, and may find the China war unaffordable after straining on naval spending in the 1920s.
You could be right,we would have better world here.Becouse Japan would still not attack soviets,and lost to USA,but - we would have ,at least,normal China.

Europe,including Poland would be fucked,but since we were fucked anyway....
 

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