An Axis Turkey in World War II

W

WolfBear

Well-known member
What would have been the effects had Turkey joined the Axis in World War II? The best way to do this would be to have the post-World War I peace settlement be harsher for Turkey without it ever actually being overturned (well, not until World War II, at least), perhaps as a result of Greek King Alexander surviving rather than dying in 1920 due to a monkey bite. While a castrated Turkey is unlikely to offer the Axis very much in terms of manpower, it would still be a useful Axis ally due to its strategic location, with it being a good way for Nazi Germany to enter the Soviet Union's Caucasian territories. You can see what I mean by taking a look at this topographic map of Europe:

Europe_topography_map_en.png


If Turkish entry into World War II on the Axis side means that the Axis can successfully conquer Baku, then the Soviet Union should be doomed, no? Anyway, what do you think, @sillygoose @raharris1973 @Chiron @stevep @History Learner @Circle of Willis @Zyobot
 
FWIW, what I find interesting is that by June 21, 1941, the British and Free French had already occupied both Syria and Lebanon:

omniatlas.com

Historical Atlas of Europe (21 June 1941): Eve of Barbarossa

British forces successfully ended German influence in Iraq and Syria, but narrowly failed to defeat a German airborne invasion of Crete. For Hitler though, this was all a sideshow—his focus was now on his 3-million-man military build-up for the invasion of the Soviet Union.
omniatlas.com omniatlas.com

europe19410621.png


So, I wonder if Turkey or at least eastern and southeastern Turkey could have gotten the 1941 Iran treatment in a TL where Turkey would have joined the Axis Powers either on the eve of Operation Barbarossa or right after the start of Operation Barbarossa.
 
WolfBear said:
What would have been the effects had Turkey joined the Axis in World War II? The best way to do this would be to have the post-World War I peace settlement be harsher for Turkey without it ever actually being overturned (well, not until World War II, at least), perhaps as a result of Greek King Alexander surviving rather than dying in 1920 due to a monkey bite. While a castrated Turkey is unlikely to offer the Axis very much in terms of manpower, it would still be a useful Axis ally due to its strategic location, with it being a good way for Nazi Germany to enter the Soviet Union's Caucasian territories. You can see what I mean by taking a look at this topographic map of Europe:

Europe_topography_map_en.png


If Turkish entry into World War II on the Axis side means that the Axis can successfully conquer Baku, then the Soviet Union should be doomed, no? Anyway, what do you think, @sillygoose @raharris1973 @Chiron @stevep @History Learner @Circle of Willis @Zyobot
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Turkey have 164 light tanks/R.35 and T.26/ in 1942,about 450 mostly obsolate planes,obsolate artillery.They have good infrantry,and could take Baku,but nothing more.

If they manage to do so,germans would keep Baku at least till beginning of 1944.Which mean,that soviet advance would be slown down for 1-2 years in Europe - but,they would take most of Turkey.
Since war would end in 1945 anyway thanks to A bomb,it mean free Czech,Hungary,Yugoslavia,and maybe even Poland,Bulgary and Romania.
With Turkey as posible only soviet spoil of war/well,Baltics too/

Much better world.
 
For one thing it would be very valuable for its mineral resources. They were the vital chrome source that saved Germany from serious economic problems in 1943-44. So right there having lots more mineral access not to mention food would be a big help. Turkish labor and soldiers would help economically and in terms of helping in the Middle East. Assuming that Turkey joins right around the time of the Iraq coup that would allow the Axis access to French Syria-Lebanon and that could enable help to ensure the Iraqis win their revolt. That would be a catastrophe for the British.

ATP said:
Turkey have 164 light tanks/R.35 and T.26/ in 1942,about 450 mostly obsolate planes,obsolate artillery.They have good infrantry,and could take Baku,but nothing more.

If they manage to do so,germans would keep Baku at least till beginning of 1944.Which mean,that soviet advance would be slown down for 1-2 years in Europe - but,they would take most of Turkey.
Since war would end in 1945 anyway thanks to A bomb,it mean free Czech,Hungary,Yugoslavia,and maybe even Poland,Bulgary and Romania.
With Turkey as posible only soviet spoil of war/well,Baltics too/

Much better world.
Click to expand...
All that is actually extremely helpful in the Middle East in early 1941 coupled with what was already in Syria-Lebanon:

Turkish troops joining in would be a game changer in those campaigns especially if logistically it allowed more Axis equipment and manpower to come in.
Those two panzer divisions in Greece could head East instead of trying to return to Germany via Italy.
At the end of the campaign the 2nd Panzer Division returned to Vienna for refitting, with parts of the division transported by sea and suffering heavy losses when the transport ships Marburg and Kybfels hits mines (laid by HMS Abdiel) and sank.[5][7]
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If the battle of Crete is avoided and the forces used are instead routed to the Middle East then things get very interesting, as the paratroops and 2nd panzer divisions can deploy pretty rapidly to the region via Turkey and help unravel the British positions in the region. If they can bring the Vichy French in as an active belligerent Iran might even join in as an Axis ally and the British empire starts to collapse.
 
Well, that would make Iraq situation a lot better, middle east as a whole would probably fall into Axis hands eventually, not sure how much effect it would have on others countries with Axis sympathies like Iran and Afghanistan.
 
And all that german forces would attack soviets from Turkey after taking Iraq.That still not enough to take entire Caucasus,but,at least,germans could probably take Egypt attacking from both sides.
Longer war,certainly.
But,if soviets do not break/which was possible only if germans come as lioberators/,they would eventually win,but-thanks to taking enormous losses - all Eastern Europe countries would remain free after the war.
 
sillygoose said:
For one thing it would be very valuable for its mineral resources. They were the vital chrome source that saved Germany from serious economic problems in 1943-44. So right there having lots more mineral access not to mention food would be a big help. Turkish labor and soldiers would help economically and in terms of helping in the Middle East. Assuming that Turkey joins right around the time of the Iraq coup that would allow the Axis access to French Syria-Lebanon and that could enable help to ensure the Iraqis win their revolt. That would be a catastrophe for the British.


All that is actually extremely helpful in the Middle East in early 1941 coupled with what was already in Syria-Lebanon:

Turkish troops joining in would be a game changer in those campaigns especially if logistically it allowed more Axis equipment and manpower to come in.
Those two panzer divisions in Greece could head East instead of trying to return to Germany via Italy.


If the battle of Crete is avoided and the forces used are instead routed to the Middle East then things get very interesting, as the paratroops and 2nd panzer divisions can deploy pretty rapidly to the region via Turkey and help unravel the British positions in the region. If they can bring the Vichy French in as an active belligerent Iran might even join in as an Axis ally and the British empire starts to collapse.
Click to expand...

What happens to the Soviet Union in this TL?
 
WolfBear said:
What happens to the Soviet Union in this TL?
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If germans do smart think and come as liberators,they would fall.If turks do smart thing and come as liberators for everybody,too.
But,they would care only for turks - so all other nations in Caucasus woud fight them to death.So,soviets win - becouse their enemies were stupid genociders.
 
WolfBear said:
What happens to the Soviet Union in this TL?
Click to expand...
That's quite complicated and depends on the exact scenario.
If we go with the scenario I outlined about avoiding Crete, Turkey joining in during the fall of Greece in May 1941, and Iran getting involved due to a successful Iraq revolt things get pretty interesting them.
For this scenario the Crete invasion force is diverted to Turkey/the Middle East, so the paratroopers and 5th mountain are flown in to Syria via Turkey with the OTL air command Iraq where they move quickly to aid the Iraqis. The Turkish army probably can only send their best then to help in Iraq, which frankly any extra troops are a help.

This ties down the British counter attack force while the 2nd and 5th Panzer divisions are slowly moved in via Turkey to Lebanon to invade Palestine and cut off Egypt to help Rommel and trap the British fleet in the region. Iran jumps in probably in June or July when they see how things play out, which forces the Soviets to defend against both Turkey and Iran in June.

Britain then is left in a dire situation and the OTL force the Soviets used to invade Iran are instead used to defend against Iran and Turkey as well as probably even more troops given the threat level. I doubt Churchill has much to send to help the Soviets in 1941 then. No Persian route for Lend-Lease either. The situation probably if anything would force Churchill out of power and might be enough to get the British to sue for peace given the catastrophic situation strategically and threat to the empire. Once that happens the Soviets are screwed. The Iranians and Turks supplemented by German forces would be able to invade the Caucasus eventually.

Basically though I think Barbarossa plays out much the same except for Typhoon due to the lack of 2nd and 5th Panzer, which IOTL only arrived in the east around then. The attack against Moscow probably peters out then after closing the Vyazma pocket due to less armor. In 1942 though if Britain is out and there is no North African campaign the Axis is much stronger in the East and probably finishes the Soviets off then.
 
sillygoose said:
That's quite complicated and depends on the exact scenario.
If we go with the scenario I outlined about avoiding Crete, Turkey joining in during the fall of Greece in May 1941, and Iran getting involved due to a successful Iraq revolt things get pretty interesting them.
For this scenario the Crete invasion force is diverted to Turkey/the Middle East, so the paratroopers and 5th mountain are flown in to Syria via Turkey with the OTL air command Iraq where they move quickly to aid the Iraqis. The Turkish army probably can only send their best then to help in Iraq, which frankly any extra troops are a help.

This ties down the British counter attack force while the 2nd and 5th Panzer divisions are slowly moved in via Turkey to Lebanon to invade Palestine and cut off Egypt to help Rommel and trap the British fleet in the region. Iran jumps in probably in June or July when they see how things play out, which forces the Soviets to defend against both Turkey and Iran in June.

Britain then is left in a dire situation and the OTL force the Soviets used to invade Iran are instead used to defend against Iran and Turkey as well as probably even more troops given the threat level. I doubt Churchill has much to send to help the Soviets in 1941 then. No Persian route for Lend-Lease either. The situation probably if anything would force Churchill out of power and might be enough to get the British to sue for peace given the catastrophic situation strategically and threat to the empire. Once that happens the Soviets are screwed. The Iranians and Turks supplemented by German forces would be able to invade the Caucasus eventually.

Basically though I think Barbarossa plays out much the same except for Typhoon due to the lack of 2nd and 5th Panzer, which IOTL only arrived in the east around then. The attack against Moscow probably peters out then after closing the Vyazma pocket due to less armor. In 1942 though if Britain is out and there is no North African campaign the Axis is much stronger in the East and probably finishes the Soviets off then.
Click to expand...

Is Pearl Harbor completely prevented in this TL? Or does it still occur but there's simply a US-Japan war, with no US involvement in the European war?
 
WolfBear said:
But if Britain isn't fighting, just how much could Germany actually do against the US? What's the incentive for Germany to go to war against the US here?
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If the US is giving LL to the Soviets they could interdict them with Uboats and aircraft just like IOTL. But if Britain is out that is unlikely. More likely they just work with the Japanese to give them technology and maybe advise.
 
sillygoose said:
If the US is giving LL to the Soviets they could interdict them with Uboats and aircraft just like IOTL. But if Britain is out that is unlikely. More likely they just work with the Japanese to give them technology and maybe advise.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not sure just how much US LL will actually go to the Soviet Union if Britain is no longer fighting.
 
sillygoose said:
That's quite complicated and depends on the exact scenario.
If we go with the scenario I outlined about avoiding Crete, Turkey joining in during the fall of Greece in May 1941, and Iran getting involved due to a successful Iraq revolt things get pretty interesting them.
For this scenario the Crete invasion force is diverted to Turkey/the Middle East, so the paratroopers and 5th mountain are flown in to Syria via Turkey with the OTL air command Iraq where they move quickly to aid the Iraqis. The Turkish army probably can only send their best then to help in Iraq, which frankly any extra troops are a help.

This ties down the British counter attack force while the 2nd and 5th Panzer divisions are slowly moved in via Turkey to Lebanon to invade Palestine and cut off Egypt to help Rommel and trap the British fleet in the region. Iran jumps in probably in June or July when they see how things play out, which forces the Soviets to defend against both Turkey and Iran in June.

Britain then is left in a dire situation and the OTL force the Soviets used to invade Iran are instead used to defend against Iran and Turkey as well as probably even more troops given the threat level. I doubt Churchill has much to send to help the Soviets in 1941 then. No Persian route for Lend-Lease either. The situation probably if anything would force Churchill out of power and might be enough to get the British to sue for peace given the catastrophic situation strategically and threat to the empire. Once that happens the Soviets are screwed. The Iranians and Turks supplemented by German forces would be able to invade the Caucasus eventually.

Basically though I think Barbarossa plays out much the same except for Typhoon due to the lack of 2nd and 5th Panzer, which IOTL only arrived in the east around then. The attack against Moscow probably peters out then after closing the Vyazma pocket due to less armor. In 1942 though if Britain is out and there is no North African campaign the Axis is much stronger in the East and probably finishes the Soviets off then.
Click to expand...

It would be true - if Adolf do not declare war on USA after genociding soviets instead of liberate them,and FDR do not loved sralin.
With two factor unchanged,soviets still win - only difference is,that they would advance slower,and some countries would remain free.But - they would get Turkey.
 
WolfBear said:
Yeah, I'm not sure just how much US LL will actually go to the Soviet Union if Britain is no longer fighting.
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Agreed that it would probably not happen, but you never know.

ATP said:
It would be true - if Adolf do not declare war on USA after genociding soviets instead of liberate them,and FDR do not loved sralin.
With two factor unchanged,soviets still win - only difference is,that they would advance slower,and some countries would remain free.But - they would get Turkey.
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FDR had a limit of what he could get congress to agree to.

What two factors unchanged?
 
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