Five minutes of hate news

[LordsFire]

Again with your conclusion assuming your premise is correct. No, Catholicism is not a superior moral system with regard to ideological conflict, because the obsessive logical formulations to connect absolutely everything in the scripture together into as cohesive a worldview as possible creates points of failure on things that do not fucking matter or are outright bad like having a singular worldly institution as sole moral arbiter.

And the earlier forms of Christianity that displaced Roman religion were an utter clusterfuck. Again, street riots over theological minutia, whether it be the contents of the Eucharist in terms of transubstantiation or the internal nature of Christ. Yet the churning mass of barely-related post-Judeo-Stoic mostly-nonsense did not create catastrophic results like the churning mass of barely-related post-Christian mostly-nonsense, because people were used to questioning ideology.

There was a healthy ecosystem of varied baselines to what you thought was right and established customs to handle different moral standards, things Christianity went out of its way to be rid of. And without those, when the Catholic Church inevitably discredited its moral system for huge swaths of Europe by being corrupt elitist cunts, you got nonsense because people couldn't behave themselves dealing with those of minutely different framework for mostly-identical moral standards, let alone the coming shitshow of post-Christian utopians deriving irreconcilably different frameworks for wildly divergent moral standards.

1. I'm not going to try to defend catholicism. In fact, I agree with you about how destructive a lot of catholic power politics and doctrinal heresies are.

2. Your argument that Christianity is somehow uniquely terrible in being vulnerable to 'what comes after' fails evidentiary tests too. Cambodia wasn't Christian. China wasn't Christian. North Korea wasn't Christian. Yet all of these, when they turned atheistic/communist, were every bit or more brutal and murderous as nations that had been at least nominally culturally Christian before the atheists took over.

3. A 'healthy ecosystem' of ideology is one centered around pursuit of Truth. If you don't value truth as a transcendent concept, you're going to end up at nonsense no matter what the material or cultural peculiarities of your society are.

 

[Morphic Tide]

1. I'm not going to try to defend catholicism. In fact, I agree with you about how destructive a lot of catholic power politics and doctrinal heresies are.

Ignoring the instrumental nature of Catholicism's failures stemming from how it implemented the wider concepts of Christianity to the development of the "atheism" you malign and its popularity among disillusioned masses just makes you a fool. There being forms of Christianity that don't fail so easily doesn't change that the behavioral sink of Orthodoxy as a concept quite essential to even the broadest categorization will invariably create obsessive clergymen entangling things that have no business being ethically interdependent.

2. Your argument that Christianity is somehow uniquely terrible in being vulnerable to 'what comes after' fails evidentiary tests too. Cambodia wasn't Christian. China wasn't Christian. North Korea wasn't Christian. Yet all of these, when they turned atheistic/communist, were every bit or more brutal and murderous as nations that had been at least nominally culturally Christian before the atheists took over.

The "success" of their revolutions was inextricably linked to the Soviets backing them, who adopted a post-Christian ideology to go with trying to build a post-Feudal state. You also don't get Karl Marx and by extension the strain of Communism those states and the Soviets who backed them ran with without Christian notions of equal moral worth between persons and the expectation to engage in charity. The nightmare is very much of Christian origins, your steadfast refusal to accept that doesn't change that the ideas had to come from somewhere.

3. A 'healthy ecosystem' of ideology is one centered around pursuit of Truth. If you don't value truth as a transcendent concept, you're going to end up at nonsense no matter what the material or cultural peculiarities of your society are.

The "pursuit of Truth" in Christendom is infested with a priori exclusions for challenging the central scripture. Hence the heliocentrism debacle. And no, somebody getting the numbers wrong doesn't excuse threatening to kill them for challenging your assumptions of material fact. Putting such all-encompassing "Right-Thinking" on a pedestal was a mistake.

 

[LordsFire]

The "success" of their revolutions was inextricably linked to the Soviets backing them, who adopted a post-Christian ideology to go with trying to build a post-Feudal state. You also don't get Karl Marx and by extension the strain of Communism those states and the Soviets who backed them ran with without Christian notions of equal moral worth between persons and the expectation to engage in charity. The nightmare is very much of Christian origins, your steadfast refusal to accept that doesn't change that the ideas had to come from somewhere.

Really, all you're doing is proving that your grudge, hatred, whatever particular flavor of antipathy it is, is so strong that you are going to blame them from the crimes of their most strident ideological enemies.

Honestly, I'm impressed with how warped your thinking has become.

 

[King Arts]

Really, all you're doing is proving that your grudge, hatred, whatever particular flavor of antipathy it is, is so strong that you are going to blame them from the crimes of their most strident ideological enemies.

Honestly, I'm impressed with how warped your thinking has become.

To be fair lords there is a relationship to Christianity and communism.

Christians and commies hating each other does not mean they don’t have a commonality. After all Islam and Christianity have frequently warred yet Islam is the closest religion to Christianity followed by Judaism.

 

[mrttao]

The "success" of their revolutions was inextricably linked to the Soviets backing them, who adopted a post-Christian ideology to go with trying to build a post-Feudal state. You also don't get Karl Marx and by extension the strain of Communism those states and the Soviets who backed them ran with without Christian notions of equal moral worth between persons and the expectation to engage in charity. The nightmare is very much of Christian origins, your steadfast refusal to accept that doesn't change that the ideas had to come from somewhere.

1. Christians are not the only ones who practice charity.
The buddhists have been practicing charity since before the birth of Yeshua.
https://dharmawisdom.org/meaning-of-the-pali-word-dana/

2. The communist notion of "anyone who does not donate everything to charity is evil and must be robbed, raped, tortured, and killed for said evil" is...
in the very loosest of technicalities an outgrowth of the concept of "charity is a virtue".
But... you can't blame charitable people for such an abomination.

3. You are being far too generous to communists. Their ideology is not "extreme charity to the point of insanity"
Their ideology is "I am a literal bandit, I will dress it up with some flowery language". This is why they never actually donate anything to charity themselves.

If someone was literally homeless, worked, and donated every cent they made that was not spent on food... then they would be a charity extremist. I don't think any such person exist. Instead somehow every single communist, no matter how wealthy, insists that someone else "donate" against their will.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

So for the religious argument for Christians against everyone else what the secular types don't really get is that for many true Christians this is the final conflict for the end times. Now if they happen to be right about everything well shits about to really get rough and if they are wrong well they will be about as strong in their beliefs as Muslims

 

[LordsFire]

After all Islam and Christianity have frequently warred yet Islam is the closest religion to Christianity followed by Judaism.

What a fantastic way to reveal how little you understand about a minimum of one, and possibly all three of these religions. I'm tempted to try to plumb the depths of your confusion on the topic, but this is already basically a derail.

 

[mrttao]

It never fails. every time the lolbertarian reaches the same conclusion

At least it is not the gobment.

Megacorps are good guys
Megacorps are our friends
Megacorps will never do anything wrong
Any attempt to curtail megacorp abuse will backfire
Anyone who thinks we can curtail the megacorp is actually pro authoritarian big govt and just too stupid to realize that

/lolbertarian

So, I have been thinking about it some more.
Unlike what lolberterians believe, megacorps are definitely the enemy. (so is the govt. they are both enemies)

But the thing is... we already have anti-trust laws that we are not enforcing.
The most realistic path to victory then is not to make any new law, nor is it to immediately focus on the swamp creatures.
But to get just enough clout to start smashing megacorps into pieces.

This is a move that would be popular with the commoners from both the right AND the left. (and hated by the oligarchs from the uniparty).
Once you start delivering results on this, you will see sky high support. Which could give you the clout needed to purge swamp creatures from washington.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

So, I have been thinking about it some more.
Unlike what lolberterians believe, megacorps are the enemy just like the govt is.

But the thing is... we already have anti-trust laws that we are not enforcing.
The most realistic path to victory then is not to make any new law, nor is it to immediately focus on the swamp creatures.
But to get just enough clout to start smashing megacorps into pieces.

This is a move that would be popular with the commoners from both the right AND the left. (and hated by the oligarchs from the uniparty).
Once you start delivering results on this, you will see sky high support. Which could give you the clout needed to purge swamp creatures from washington.

Hell we ignored our own anti trust laws for Microsoft under Clinton

 

[Cherico]

So the left has become a literal death cult.

 

[ATP]

So, I have been thinking about it some more.
Unlike what lolberterians believe, megacorps are definitely the enemy. (so is the govt. they are both enemies)

But the thing is... we already have anti-trust laws that we are not enforcing.
The most realistic path to victory then is not to make any new law, nor is it to immediately focus on the swamp creatures.
But to get just enough clout to start smashing megacorps into pieces.

This is a move that would be popular with the commoners from both the right AND the left. (and hated by the oligarchs from the uniparty).
Once you start delivering results on this, you will see sky high support. Which could give you the clout needed to purge swamp creatures from washington.

Yes,that is how USA should be cleaned.Becouse leftist and Big Corpo all the same now.
And you could remove Big Corpo using existing laws.

About commies and charity - Lenin let 5M people die from hunger during civil war when he and his friends eat luxury food.
When he stolen tsar,church and private gold and sell it to Wall Street,he buyed basically two things:
1.Weapons.
2.Luxury food and drinks.

Sralin murdered farmers,becouse there was no more gold left to steal,so he must steal farmers grain.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Whoever made this bullshit deserves to be bitch-slapped :

 

[King Arts]

What a fantastic way to reveal how little you understand about a minimum of one, and possibly all three of these religions. I'm tempted to try to plumb the depths of your confusion on the topic, but this is already basically a derail.

You really are ignorant? There are five world religions. Judaism Christianity Islam Hinduism and Buddhism. Are you going to say that the Christians are more similar to Buddhists than Muslims?

Whoever made this bullshit deserves to be bitch-slapped :

Honestly this is why I have contempt for the west. It’s a problem not just liberals have but even “conservatives” They love their fucking constitutions and rights. Fuck those things a stable society that is safe for people is most important. If that means faceism then so be it.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Fuck those things a stable society that is safe for people is most important. If that means faceism then so be it.

I will always oppose you on this b/c it NEVER stays safe. It ALWAYS becomes an oppressive and exploitative force.

 

[King Arts]

I will always oppose you on this b/c it NEVER stays safe. It ALWAYS becomes an oppressive and exploitative force.

This is a meaningless statement. You can say the same of all systems they degrade. Constitutional democracy degrades into corruption and collapse, or an autocracy that is "oppressive"

 

[LordsFire]

You really are ignorant? There are five world religions. Judaism Christianity Islam Hinduism and Buddhism. Are you going to say that the Christians are more similar to Buddhists than Muslims?

Islam is completely antithetical to Christianity. Judaism and Christianity are 80%+ congruent with each other.

That you think Islam is closer to Christianity says you know little or nothing about either or both of them.

Honestly this is why I have contempt for the west. It’s a problem not just liberals have but even “conservatives” They love their fucking constitutions and rights. Fuck those things a stable society that is safe for people is most important. If that means faceism then so be it.

And here you advocate something that would actively guarantee what you're claiming to speak against.

Fascism has a spectacular track record of destabilizing and destroying nations that it's tried in. Much like every other collectivist, command economy, centralized power model.

This is a meaningless statement. You can say the same of all systems they degrade. Constitutional democracy degrades into corruption and collapse, or an autocracy that is "oppressive"

Constitutional Democracy in the US has degraded over the course of over 200 years, and is still giving the best results in the world in its corrupted form.

Fascism 'degraded' over the course of two decades or less, and left the nations trying it (Germany and Italy) burnt out cinders.

Honestly, it looks like you're just falling to the edgey-boy appeal of thinking that 'hard men making hard decisions' is the way to Get Things Done.

The President of El Salvador is insanely popular, because he defeated organized crime. Has he actually implemented fascism? Would you even know what it looked like if he did?

 

[TheRejectionist]

Honestly this is why I have contempt for the west. It’s a problem not just liberals have but even “conservatives” They love their fucking constitutions and rights. Fuck those things a stable society that is safe for people is most important. If that means faceism then so be it.

Besides that I agree with @The Whispering Monk (though likely for different REASONS) and me and you share a contempt for what is consider "lef" or "right", you forget that El Salvador's president, has NOT elected himself FOR life, rather, he did an additional term that yeah it is technically constitutional, but his own nation seems to agree that an additional mandate is necessary (the only 1 mandate has historical basis for LATAM, just look at Brazil and Paraguay) and welcomed. So it at worst autocracy by popular demand "Caesar-style" and NOT fascism. AND...Compared to his neighbours, El Salvador has become an even MORE constitution-respecting NATION STATE.

Also, you misspelled FASCISM WITH FACEISM.

Additionally, you need an actual good video on fascism.



EDIT : El Salvador's election made me even more to visit right now.

 

[King Arts]

Islam is completely antithetical to Christianity. Judaism and Christianity are 80%+ congruent with each other.

That you think Islam is closer to Christianity says you know little or nothing about either or both of them.

Ok you are the one who seems to be ignorant on Islam and Judaism and maybe even Christianity. I'll try to teach you now the basics. First what these religions share in common.

All three believe in one God the creator of heaven and earth. The omnipotent being that created mankind. They all believe in angels(though the angels are different in each religion) they also all agree that God revealed himself to humanity through prophets specially selected people who were sent by God to give a message from God to humanity on what to do and what to believe and how to act. They all believe in an afterlife and that there will be a final day of judgment where God will judge the living and the dead and the good will go to heaven the bad go to hell.

Now the differences. First the prophets Christianity and Judaism agree that the prophets David, Solomon etc. were imperfect and did serious bad things. David did adultery Solomon did idolatry, etc. Islam disagrees with this they say that while only god is purely perfect, the prophets did no wrong. So they do have differences like Job not sleeping with his daughters, David was not an adulterer, and Solomon never worshipped false gods. Yes this is a difference between Islam and Christians and Jews. But is it that big of a deal? No honestly it's like disagreeing over whether Moses was black or not. It's a historical fact that does not really matter. Christianity needs you to believe that Jesus is God. Whether or not David fucked Bathsheba while she was married to Uriah and killed him does not matter.

Another differance is angels but all three religions are different here though Jews and Muslims are closer to each other than Christians and Jews. In Christianity angels have free will just like humans(it can be a bit complicated since angels are partially outside of time so not JUST like humans since the fallen can't repent since they knew what they were doing) in fact Lucifer/Satan was an angel who rejected God. In Judaism it's not the same angels have no free will they are robots programmed by God. Satan did not rebel against God he is obeying God's instruction to spread evil and tempt mankind to test them. Think of Lucifer as the prosecutor the angel Michael as your defendant, and God as the Judge. Satan is doing the job God gave him so humans can have free will to choose between good and evil. And Islam same as Judaism angels are robots created by God for various tasks, only differance is that satan is not an angel but a Genie another race created by God with free will. He has powers and is opposed to mankind being God's favorite race. Not to important but those are differances.

Now we get to Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin Mary who was one of the most devout and pure women and was a prophet(not God) and his message was for people to worship God and he was a great guy. He was not crucified as God saved him by taking him into heaven, and on judgment day he will return to fight the anti christ. Obviously this is a big differance in Christianity Jesus is lord if you don't accept that you aren't saved. So it's sad Muslims won't see heaven unless they convert BUT at least they like and respect Jesus. Again big differance but again we aren't talking about if you are saved or a Christian we are talking about similarity, and respect and adoration and thinking Jesus and Mary were holy people and prophets is as close as you can get to the truth while still being short of the truth and not being saved.

Now what do Jews think of Jesus. They say in the Talmud that he was born of a whore/prostitute who had adultery with a Roman soldier named Panthera. That Jesus was an evil sorcerer who enticed Israel to leave the worship of God. Also that he was killed and is now in hell boiling in shit for all eternity.

So which religion is more congruent to the other and more antiethical? The one that says Jesus the lord our God is not a God but was a great man, or the one that says Jesus the lord our God is not God and was an evil sinner who is in hell boiling in crap?
Gee if only American protestants had discernment.

And here you advocate something that would actively guarantee what you're claiming to speak against.

Fascism has a spectacular track record of destabilizing and destroying nations that it's tried in. Much like every other collectivist, command economy, centralized power model.

Singapore. Again unlike communism where it failed because of it's own nature authoritarian nations were well conquered and overthrown. If a nation falls into civil war or rebellion it's the fault of the leaders and the ideas of the country. If it's beaten by a foreign power that doesen't prove anything but that the foreign power is stronger maybe in wealth or in population and technology. If tomorow the Galactic Empire from Star Wars conqured the U.S. you wouldn't say that it's fascist monarchy is superior the the US Republican constitution would you?

Constitutional Democracy in the US has degraded over the course of over 200 years, and is still giving the best results in the world in its corrupted form.

Fascism 'degraded' over the course of two decades or less, and left the nations trying it (Germany and Italy) burnt out cinders.

Honestly, it looks like you're just falling to the edgey-boy appeal of thinking that 'hard men making hard decisions' is the way to Get Things Done.

The President of El Salvador is insanely popular, because he defeated organized crime. Has he actually implemented fascism? Would you even know what it looked like if he did?

You only look at history no more than 300 years ago? How about we look at history BEFORE the engligtenment. Maybe Rome? Rome as a Republic with seperation of power and a constitution lasted less than as a dictatorship/monarchy with one man rule.


Also what do you mean by fascism? I'm using the colloquial definition for a rightwing nation that is authoritarian and has few if any civil rights. I know it's not what "real" fascism is but everyone calls it that so I just throw my hands up and also do it.

Besides that I agree with @The Whispering Monk (though likely for different REASONS) and me and you share a contempt for what is consider "lef" or "right", you forget that El Salvador's president, has NOT elected himself FOR life, rather, he did an additional term that yeah it is technically constitutional, but his own nation seems to agree that an additional mandate is necessary (the only 1 mandate has historical basis for LATAM, just look at Brazil and Paraguay) and welcomed. So it at worst autocracy by popular demand "Caesar-style" and NOT fascism. AND...Compared to his neighbours, El Salvador has become an even MORE constitution-respecting NATION STATE.

Also, you misspelled FASCISM WITH FACEISM.

Additionally, you need an actual good video on fascism.



EDIT : El Salvador's election made me even more to visit right now.

Again what do you mean by fascism? I'm using the definition of a rightwing nation that is authoritarian and thus has strict laws and there is either very few constitutional rules or none which allows the nation to set whatever policies it thinks are best without roadblocks.

 

[mrttao]

Ok you are the one who seems to be ignorant on Islam and Judaism and maybe even Christianity. I'll try to teach you now the basics. First what these religions share in common.

All three believe in one God the creator of heaven and earth. The omnipotent being that created mankind. They all believe in angels(though the angels are different in each religion) they also all agree that God revealed himself to humanity through prophets specially selected people who were sent by God to give a message from God to humanity on what to do and what to believe and how to act. They all believe in an afterlife and that there will be a final day of judgment where God will judge the living and the dead and the good will go to heaven the bad go to hell.

Now the differences. First the prophets Christianity and Judaism agree that the prophets David, Solomon etc. were imperfect and did serious bad things. David did adultery Solomon did idolatry, etc. Islam disagrees with this they say that while only god is purely perfect, the prophets did no wrong. So they do have differences like Job not sleeping with his daughters, David was not an adulterer, and Solomon never worshipped false gods. Yes this is a difference between Islam and Christians and Jews. But is it that big of a deal? No honestly it's like disagreeing over whether Moses was black or not. It's a historical fact that does not really matter. Christianity needs you to believe that Jesus is God. Whether or not David fucked Bathsheba while she was married to Uriah and killed him does not matter.

Another differance is angels but all three religions are different here though Jews and Muslims are closer to each other than Christians and Jews. In Christianity angels have free will just like humans(it can be a bit complicated since angels are partially outside of time so not JUST like humans since the fallen can't repent since they knew what they were doing) in fact Lucifer/Satan was an angel who rejected God. In Judaism it's not the same angels have no free will they are robots programmed by God. Satan did not rebel against God he is obeying God's instruction to spread evil and tempt mankind to test them. Think of Lucifer as the prosecutor the angel Michael as your defendant, and God as the Judge. Satan is doing the job God gave him so humans can have free will to choose between good and evil. And Islam same as Judaism angels are robots created by God for various tasks, only differance is that satan is not an angel but a Genie another race created by God with free will. He has powers and is opposed to mankind being God's favorite race. Not to important but those are differances.

Now we get to Jesus. Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin Mary who was one of the most devout and pure women and was a prophet(not God) and his message was for people to worship God and he was a great guy. He was not crucified as God saved him by taking him into heaven, and on judgment day he will return to fight the anti christ. Obviously this is a big differance in Christianity Jesus is lord if you don't accept that you aren't saved. So it's sad Muslims won't see heaven unless they convert BUT at least they like and respect Jesus. Again big differance but again we aren't talking about if you are saved or a Christian we are talking about similarity, and respect and adoration and thinking Jesus and Mary were holy people and prophets is as close as you can get to the truth while still being short of the truth and not being saved.

Now what do Jews think of Jesus. They say in the Talmud that he was born of a whore/prostitute who had adultery with a Roman soldier named Panthera. That Jesus was an evil sorcerer who enticed Israel to leave the worship of God. Also that he was killed and is now in hell boiling in shit for all eternity.

So which religion is more congruent to the other and more antiethical? The one that says Jesus the lord our God is not a God but was a great man, or the one that says Jesus the lord our God is not God and was an evil sinner who is in hell boiling in crap?
Gee if only American protestants had discernment.

I believe that the main difference is that you are talking about commonality in mythology.
While he is talking about commonality in moral systems and religious rules

While they follow completely different and unrelated pantheons. Buddha and Jesus share some similarities in philosophy and morality. As teachers who promote peace.
While Mohammad is antithetical to both of them being a warlord, rapist, oathbreaker, pedophile, etc.

While you are discussing the mythology. Mythologically the closest religion to christianity is Satanism. As it is the exact same mythos, only "lets worship the evil guy instead". And the 2nd closest is Islam (almost the same mythos. But god decided that hey maybe I should send over a vile pedophile warlord this time)

 

[LordsFire]

So which religion is more congruent to the other and more antiethical? The one that says Jesus the lord our God is not a God but was a great man, or the one that says Jesus the lord our God is not God and was an evil sinner who is in hell boiling in crap?

You are focusing mostly on things that are far less important, and don't mention at all many of the things that are most important.

Things Christianity and Judaism have in common:
1. The fundamental nature of God.
2. The nature of man's relationship with God.
3. What God expects and commands of men.
4. The first five books of the Bible.
5. The promise of a coming Messiah.

Things that Christianity and Judaism are in conflict over:
1. Whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was the promised messiah.
2. What came as a consequence of that, IE the Gospel, Acts, Epistles, and Revelation.

So in essence, there is a single point of conflict between Judaism and Christianity. That is an absolutely essential point of conflict, but there are ethnic jews who accept Christ as messiah, and they don't need to throw out everything else they believed to do so.

Things that Islam is in direct conflict with Christianity and Judaism over:
1. The fundamental nature of God.
2. The nature of man's relationship with God.
3. What God expects and commands of men.
4. Pretty much every part of the Bible/Torah. The Koran/Hadiths plagiarize some parts, but it's incredibly corrupted.
5. The promise of Messiah.

Islam, fundamentally, is a moral striver religion. One gets to heaven by their good works being measured against their sins. Christianity and Orthodox Judaism are completely in contradiction to this, it is only by God's forgiveness and the redemptive acts of the messiah that one can find redemption. Christianity believes Jesus Christ was that messiah, Orthodox Jews believe that messiah has not yet come.

You focused on a long string of peripheral elements, and only touched on Christ at the end of your shpiel. You also failed to address the fact that Islam is extremely explicit that Jesus did not die, and was not raised from the dead. In fact, God outright deceived Jesus disciples into thinking that happened, when it didn't!

The death and resurrection are absolutely crucial to Christianity, and Islam rejects them utterly.

You are focused on all the wrong things, and that says a lot about your priorities and values.

Also what do you mean by fascism? I'm using the colloquial definition for a rightwing nation that is authoritarian and has few if any civil rights. I know it's not what "real" fascism is but everyone calls it that so I just throw my hands up and also do it.

It doesn't matter what a leftist calls 'fascist,' because they'll call literally anyone they don't like or disagree with in a given moment a fascist.

Fortunately, for those of us not suffering from cult thinking, the creator of fascism, Benito Mussolini, provided a definition for what he had created:

"Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."

Everything in a fascist nation is either incorporated directly into the government, or under its direct guidance. Not all companies in Italy and Germany in the 1930's were nationalized, but any company of meaningful size had party members appointed to sit on its board, to make sure they did what the state required.

Singapore is not fascist. Arguments can be made they're closer to it than many other countries, but China is far closer.