General military questions thread

Buba

A total creep
TBH all armies had their duds which they never got to work properly or persued roads best never taken.

As to the Germans and overengineering - just think of a tracked motorcycle (what do you need a tracked motorcycle for anyway, BTW? Especially one which works without that kewl! front wheel ... ) and its tracks.

n. Track

Each track is made up of 40 forged steel links (42) (fig. 1) joined together by a bolt (43). These link joints are lubricated from oil chambers (44) which also, in part, form the tongues of the track links and pass between the rims of the bogie wheels. Above the oil chambers and track bolts, rubber shoes (45) are mounted. These are easily replaceable, being retained by 4 screws (46) only.



almXrYYa7V4bOtnnU2OArhDmXeNBWAZbOlci7pKTGOI.jpg


Sun Tsu say - man who design that take out to palking lot and shoot as enemy saboteur..
 
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bintananth

behind a desk
TBH all armies had their duds which they never got to work properly or persued roads best never taken.

As to the Germans and overengineering - just think of a tracked motorcycle (what do you need a tracked motorcycle for anyway, BTW? Especially one which works without that kewl! front wheel ... ) and its tracks.

n. Track

Each track is made up of 40 forged steel links (42) (fig. 1) joined together by a bolt (43). These link joints are lubricated from oil chambers (44) which also, in part, form the tongues of the track links and pass between the rims of the bogie wheels. Above the oil chambers and track bolts, rubber shoes (45) are mounted. These are easily replaceable, being retained by 4 screws (46) only.



almXrYYa7V4bOtnnU2OArhDmXeNBWAZbOlci7pKTGOI.jpg


Sun Tsu say - man who design that take out to palking lot and shoot as enemy saboteur..
Meanwhile the Beretta sidearms Italy's officers got have a grand total of 39 parts and an estimated service life of over a century.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The weird thing about Panther is that it was a medium tank only by designation. In weight it was heavier than Pershing and Churchill, while similar to IS-1 and KV-1.

Personally, I classify tanks by role, not by weight. Yes, Panther weighted as much as a heavy tank (and had major issues because of that), but its role and utilization were those of a medium tank. It wasn't a heavy breakthrough tank in the vein of Tiger, IS series or Pershing. Rather, its role was essentially fire and maneuver, exploiting the breakthrough to engage in a war of maneuver.

When its engine and transmission didn't break down, that is...

In light of that it shouldn't be so surprising that it was experiencing a lot of the reliability problems common among WW2 heavy tanks.

Agreed. In fact, Panther had it worse than other heavyweight tanks, because it was actually designed as a medium tank. And I don't mean that just by role: the original design weighted 35 tons. But as usual, Germans overengineered it, and had to reinforce the armor and drive train construction, which meant that weight increased to 40 tons. And Hitler then demanded the forward hull plate to be thickened from 60 to 80 mm, which might not have been a bad idea by itself, but it was done very late in the design process. What all of this meant is that you had the engine and transmission designed for a 35 ton tank inside a tank that weighted 44 tons. Some modifications were made, such as drilling the engine blocks to increase its power output, but even so the weight was simply too much for its propulsion complex.

And germans could choose 35t tank instead of Panther,but failed to do so./VK3002/

Why would they do so, when Panther itself was originally designed to weight 35 tons? Had they chosen VK3002, that thing would have likely ended up weighting 65 tons after all the modifications. And worse, it was essentially a T-34 copy, which... wasn't a good tank, to say the least.
 

paulobrito

Well-known member
Also, one of the biggest problems the germans have is the lack of certain raw materials that are necessary to make several alloys. That caused problems with the Tiger II armor and the short lifetime of the Jumo 004. Also caused the fragility of the Panther gearbox.
 

Buba

A total creep
Also, one of the biggest problems the germans have is the lack of certain raw materials that are necessary to make several alloys. That caused problems with the Tiger II armor and the short lifetime of the Jumo 004. Also caused the fragility of the Panther gearbox.
Which could be addressed by making those components bigger or thicker, or not making the vehicles overweight, etc.

As to the Jumo and jet engines - I've read on AH-com that the Germans pursued the "better" but "bleeding edge" technology, while the British the "simpler to make here and now" technology (axial something versus centrifugal something?). Progress in alloys etc. made the "German" ideas viable in the 1950s or so.
 
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Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Personally, I classify tanks by role, not by weight. Yes, Panther weighted as much as a heavy tank (and had major issues because of that), but its role and utilization were those of a medium tank. It wasn't a heavy breakthrough tank in the vein of Tiger, IS series or Pershing. Rather, its role was essentially fire and maneuver, exploiting the breakthrough to engage in a war of maneuver.

When its engine and transmission didn't break down, that is...
But that makes the designations artificial and more related to doctrine than the tank itself - while different armies, even different commanders could pretty much use the same tank in a different role.

Agreed. In fact, Panther had it worse than other heavyweight tanks, because it was actually designed as a medium tank. And I don't mean that just by role: the original design weighted 35 tons. But as usual, Germans overengineered it, and had to reinforce the armor and drive train construction, which meant that weight increased to 40 tons. And Hitler then demanded the forward hull plate to be thickened from 60 to 80 mm, which might not have been a bad idea by itself, but it was done very late in the design process. What all of this meant is that you had the engine and transmission designed for a 35 ton tank inside a tank that weighted 44 tons. Some modifications were made, such as drilling the engine blocks to increase its power output, but even so the weight was simply too much for its propulsion complex.
The "highly mobile heavyish tank" situation also makes some designate Panther as a proto-MBT.
 

ATP

Well-known member
That's one of the biggest issues with German WWII equipment. German engineers tended to go for overengineered and fancy without paying much attention to the fact that some poor shmuck in the rear has to keep it functional.

Fr'ex: The Heinkel He 177 was somewhat comparable to an Allied heavy bomber in terms of performance. They never got them to work reliably.

They decided to made 4 engine heavy bomber with 2 engines working in one place on each wing.Madness.And they had normal heavy bomber prototypes,which they abadonned.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
But that makes the designations artificial and more related to doctrine than the tank itself - while different armies, even different commanders could pretty much use the same tank in a different role.

Except even a question of what is a tank is related less to technical characteristics than it is to doctrine and usage. Read these for details:

A vehicle with tracks, turet, gun and armor may not be a tank, while a vehicle with light armor and no turret may be a tank. Difference is in doctrine. That is why M36 Hellcat is a tank destroyer while Strv 103 is a tank.

Likewise, classification of tanks themselves IMO is not question of army doctrine but of intended usage. Basically:
  • Heavy tanks: breakthrough, static defense and direct infantry fire support
  • Medium tanks: maneuver and anti-tank combat
  • Light tanks: scouting and reconnaissance
These requirements then lead to various design characteristics. Main Battle Tank e.g. can perform missions of both heavy and medium tanks, and are thus NOT heavy tanks despite being heavier than most heavy tanks, well, ever.

It is similar to SPGs and TDs. A self-propelled gun may destroy tanks, and a tank destroyer can be used as an SPG, and both are basically powerful guns on a lightly armored chassis. And tank destroyer can be tracked or wheeled, turreted or not turreted... main difference is their intended usage, which is then expressed (mainly) through a choice of a gun (either low or high velocity one).

The "highly mobile heavyish tank" situation also makes some designate Panther as a proto-MBT.

Panther and Tiger both IIRC, but while they were definitely a step in that direction, I don't think MBT designation fits either tank.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Except even a question of what is a tank is related less to technical characteristics than it is to doctrine and usage. Read these for details:

A vehicle with tracks, turet, gun and armor may not be a tank, while a vehicle with light armor and no turret may be a tank. Difference is in doctrine. That is why M36 Hellcat is a tank destroyer while Strv 103 is a tank.
Both are weird cases of designations specific to their technology or other quirks.
US (and many later) turreted tank destroyers are vehicles with a gun no worse than you would see on a tank meant for fighting tanks, but usually far less protected than the tank you would see this gun on, forcing them to use the ambush tactics of a tank destroyer. The same applied to modern Russian Sprut-SD.
As for Strv 103, that was a quirk of the specific combination of technologies and doctrines of the time and place involved.
Likewise, classification of tanks themselves IMO is not question of army doctrine but of intended usage. Basically:
  • Heavy tanks: breakthrough, static defense and direct infantry fire support
  • Medium tanks: maneuver and anti-tank combat
  • Light tanks: scouting and reconnaissance
No, these things changed with technology, country, and even local operational situation.
For example in a whole lot of places light tanks are used as infantry fire support platforms, especially in low intensity conflicts. Meanwhile WW2 UK had their infantry tank and cruiser tank designations which crossed light-medium-heavy ones.
These requirements then lead to various design characteristics. Main Battle Tank e.g. can perform missions of both heavy and medium tanks, and are thus NOT heavy tanks despite being heavier than most heavy tanks, well, ever.
Almost any medium tank can do the job of the heavy tank as listed, in low intensity combat even light ones can. Likewise all the better light tanks can do maneuver and fight other light tanks. Light tanks made for recon are special as long as they are actually made for it, due to expensive sensors and comm setup superior to any other tank. Though often, especially in more recent years, this equipment is usually put on APC or IFV hulls instead.
It is similar to SPGs and TDs. A self-propelled gun may destroy tanks, and a tank destroyer can be used as an SPG, and both are basically powerful guns on a lightly armored chassis. And tank destroyer can be tracked or wheeled, turreted or not turreted... main difference is their intended usage, which is then expressed (mainly) through a choice of a gun (either low or high velocity one).
The gun selection is a good point, that does trump designation.
 
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Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Both are weird cases of designations specific to their technology or other quirks.
US (and many later) turreted tank destroyers are vehicles with a gun no worse than you would see on a tank meant for fighting tanks, but usually far less protected than the tank you would see this gun on, forcing them to use the ambush tactics of a tank destroyer. The same applied to modern Russian Sprut-SD.
As for Strv 103, that was a quirk of the specific combination of technologies and doctrines of the time and place involved.

Precisely my point - designation is dependant primarily on intended usage. And that usage then leads to certain characteristics.

No, these things changed with technology, country, and even local operational situation.
For example in a whole lot of places light tanks are used as infantry fire support platforms, especially in low intensity conflicts. Meanwhile WW2 UK had their infantry tank and cruiser tank designations which crossed light-medium-heavy ones.

Actually, they didn't. And I never said my example is a strict rule, but if you look at most designs, it does apply.

In the UK, infantry tank was basically heavy tank, while cruiser tank would be the medium tank. Once you look at them like that, they do fit the designation (infantry tank was used for infantry support and breakthrough, cruiser tank for maneuver).

Almost any medium tank can do the job of the heavy tank as listed, in low intensity combat even light ones can. Likewise all the better light tanks can do maneuver and fight other light tanks. Light tanks made for recon are special as long as they are actually made for it, due to expensive sensors and comm setup superior to any other tank. Though often, especially in more recent years, this equipment is usually put on APC or IFV hulls instead.

Any tank can do the job of any other tank if absolutely necessary - hell, in the Homeland War you had World War II tank destroyers doing what would normally be job for the tanks. Question is what it is designed to do, not what it can do.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
@Aldarion Why was the Byzantine Empire able to survive the Arab/Muslim onslaught in the 7th century (albeit in a greatly shrunken form) while the Sassanid Empire was not?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
@Aldarion Why was the Byzantine Empire able to survive the Arab/Muslim onslaught in the 7th century (albeit in a greatly shrunken form) while the Sassanid Empire was not?

Eh, a lot of reasons.
1) Political stability. While war between the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires had devastated both sides, Byzantines had had an uninterrupted continuity of government. Sassanid Empire meanwhile had been left with rulers with no political legitimacy, leading to a series of civil wars - or rather one massive civil war lasting for 14 years. These devastated the empire and its military power in the years between the last Byzantine-Sassanid war and the Arab onslaught.
2) Geography. While both empires had some exposed areas (Syria etc. in general) and some very defensible areas (Anatolia, Iran), Byzantine Empire also had the Mediterranean - it was essentially a naval power, and used this advantage against the Arabs. Constantinople was also very removed from the front line, and could simply not be taken without a fleet. Persia had none of these advantages - it was a land power, and its capital was largely landlocked and exposed in the flat areas. And while Byzantine center of power was in Anatolia (though economic centre was Egypt), Persian center of power was in Iraq - which was lost early on.
3) Political and military organization. Byzantine Empire was a centralized power, allowing it to quickly reform its military. Byzantine armies had been severely weakened by their defeats, but not destroyed: thus they were settled across the Empire, and soldiers were given plots of land from which they drew sustinence. This provided a very tough defensive force, akin to the National Guard. Persian military however was feudal in nature, and political instability meant that many nobles didn't really care to fight for the Emperor. This included the Seven Parthian Clans, that were the foundation of the Empire's military power. Essentially, Persians could only really rely on the Shah's household troops. And Iran - which did have geography to resist the Arabs - was politically in no position to do so. Political instability was far worse there - Iran was basically impossible to control and so Persian emperors had to rely on a system of personal alliances and local nobility to do so. So long as they were able to do it, Persia was nearly impossible to conquer - but the war against the Byzantines had weakened the Shah's authority, and so Persians lost control of Iran just when they needed it the most. (Parallel may be drawn to how the feudalized Byzantine Empire quickly lost Anatolia against the Seljuks, though question is again more complex).
4) Strategy. This is perhaps the most important aspects - Romans were simply smarter, or perhaps luckier, ironically thanks to suffering more at the beginning. Having lost massive areas very quickly, Empire was aware that it was in no position to launch a counterattack. And most of Byzantine army had actually survived these defeats. Thus, the primary task was to organize defense, and any illusion of recovering the lost areas was lost very quickly. This also meant that Byzantines gradually shifted away from the "decisive battle" doctrine that had exemplified their early engagement with the Arabs. Persians however kept seeking a decisive battle, sending army after army to face the Arabs - until they had no armies left. And once that happened, Persian Emperor (Yazgerad III) was assassinated, and Persia broke up into numerous fiefdoms that were then captured one after another. Had they done as Byzantines had, they could have easily held onto Iran at least - but they didn't.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Eh, a lot of reasons.
1) Political stability. While war between the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires had devastated both sides, Byzantines had had an uninterrupted continuity of government. Sassanid Empire meanwhile had been left with rulers with no political legitimacy, leading to a series of civil wars - or rather one massive civil war lasting for 14 years. These devastated the empire and its military power in the years between the last Byzantine-Sassanid war and the Arab onslaught.
2) Geography. While both empires had some exposed areas (Syria etc. in general) and some very defensible areas (Anatolia, Iran), Byzantine Empire also had the Mediterranean - it was essentially a naval power, and used this advantage against the Arabs. Constantinople was also very removed from the front line, and could simply not be taken without a fleet. Persia had none of these advantages - it was a land power, and its capital was largely landlocked and exposed in the flat areas. And while Byzantine center of power was in Anatolia (though economic centre was Egypt), Persian center of power was in Iraq - which was lost early on.
3) Political and military organization. Byzantine Empire was a centralized power, allowing it to quickly reform its military. Byzantine armies had been severely weakened by their defeats, but not destroyed: thus they were settled across the Empire, and soldiers were given plots of land from which they drew sustinence. This provided a very tough defensive force, akin to the National Guard. Persian military however was feudal in nature, and political instability meant that many nobles didn't really care to fight for the Emperor. This included the Seven Parthian Clans, that were the foundation of the Empire's military power. Essentially, Persians could only really rely on the Shah's household troops. And Iran - which did have geography to resist the Arabs - was politically in no position to do so. Political instability was far worse there - Iran was basically impossible to control and so Persian emperors had to rely on a system of personal alliances and local nobility to do so. So long as they were able to do it, Persia was nearly impossible to conquer - but the war against the Byzantines had weakened the Shah's authority, and so Persians lost control of Iran just when they needed it the most. (Parallel may be drawn to how the feudalized Byzantine Empire quickly lost Anatolia against the Seljuks, though question is again more complex).
4) Strategy. This is perhaps the most important aspects - Romans were simply smarter, or perhaps luckier, ironically thanks to suffering more at the beginning. Having lost massive areas very quickly, Empire was aware that it was in no position to launch a counterattack. And most of Byzantine army had actually survived these defeats. Thus, the primary task was to organize defense, and any illusion of recovering the lost areas was lost very quickly. This also meant that Byzantines gradually shifted away from the "decisive battle" doctrine that had exemplified their early engagement with the Arabs. Persians however kept seeking a decisive battle, sending army after army to face the Arabs - until they had no armies left. And once that happened, Persian Emperor (Yazgerad III) was assassinated, and Persia broke up into numerous fiefdoms that were then captured one after another. Had they done as Byzantines had, they could have easily held onto Iran at least - but they didn't.

Interesting analysis. Also, I like how the Byzantines and Arabs had a great defensive frontier in the form of the Taurus Mountains:

.

1024px-Arab-Byzantine_frontier_zone.svg.png


A lot of fortresses on both sides!
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
And Iran had nothing like it other than the Zagros Mountains, right?

Zagros Mountains were fine, and Iran actually had good defensive geography, it is just that they weren't able to exploit it.

In fact, Anatolia and Iran are similar in terms of geography, IIRC. And while Taurus mountains were a good defensive barrier, Arabs still penetrated it with regularity. What mattered was that Byzantines were ready to resist - their armies had survived and had been quartered all across Anatolia, with soldiers having their own plots of land, having been turned into what was basically National Guard equivalent. And while they weren't ready to face Arabs head-on for quite some time, fact that the armies were there, ready to man fortresses and retake lost cities, meant that Arabs simply could not make permanent gains.

That is why I wrote that strategy was perhaps the most important difference between Persians and Romans there.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Yeah, it was basically perfect defensive barrier.

Had Russia ever conquered Anatolia, do you think that there was ever any chance of Russia subsequently using the Taurus Mountains as a natural defensive barrier again, along with all of their fortresses?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Had Russia ever conquered Anatolia, do you think that there was ever any chance of Russia subsequently using the Taurus Mountains as a natural defensive barrier again, along with all of their fortresses?

Yes, but I don't think there was ever a possibility of Russia conquering Anatolia.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
They were doing well in Anatolia without Brusilov there, the problem was logistics and lack of equipment. So even if commanders received the reinforcements they needed, they couldn't supply them far from border due to adverse terrain.
 

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