Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

[nemo1986]

If it had 'only' lasted to the 60's/70's, it would have killed far more people, and without the sharp, comprehensive ideological defeat of fascism, and decades of children being indoctrinated into it, even if it failed, you'd still have hundreds of thousands to millions of hardline adherents.

And this is presuming they did not develop nuclear weapons, which they were painfully close to throughout the later years of WWII, and allied intelligence was desperately trying to prevent. If there had been hot war on and the Nazis got their hands on nukes, the amount of destruction would have been mind-boggling, and almost certainly ended with American nuclear weapons being the tool that ended the war in Europe.

If the nazis had been willing to nuke the allies, but the allies weren't willing to nuke the nazis, then horrific amounts of Europe might have ended up under mushroom clouds.

From what I learned the nazis were years behind the allies on making a nuke due to internal fighting, lack of resources, and fewer scientists willing to actually make one. The best ones had already escaped to the US.

 

[AmosTrask]

From what I learned the nazis were years behind the allies on making a nuke due to internal fighting, lack of resources, and fewer scientists willing to actually make one. The best ones had already escaped to the US.

That and Norway sabotaging their Heavy Water facilities and bombing the rails to stop shipments to the program

 

[LordsFire]

From what I learned the nazis were years behind the allies on making a nuke due to internal fighting, lack of resources, and fewer scientists willing to actually make one. The best ones had already escaped to the US.

Years behind, yes, but if you gave them another twenty or thirty years...

The point of my post is that there's basically no reason to think that stopping the war and letting the Nazis remain in power would have had remotely better results than what we actually got.

 

[ATP]

You may be right, but I'm not an expert on this issue and the details are besides the point anyway, almost anyone would agree that defeating the Nazis was a just and worthy cause, and nobody thinks twice about the devastation the war caused in Europe because it's seen as justified to stop the Nazis.

What nazis ? GERMANS .
And,as polish patriotic jew Mieczysław Grydzewski said once,he would prefer to be killed by germans then commies - becouse germans would say that they kill him for being jew and polish patriot,which was true,when soviets would lie that he is american and german spy.

That is what made commies worst then germans - they lied,and made childrem of their victim learn poems about their murderers.
Commies really made polish children learn poems about soviet secret service - when germans,at least,do not demand that their victims children would learn poems about gestapo.

 

[King Arts]

What nazis ? GERMANS .
And,as polish patriotic jew Mieczysław Grydzewski said once,he would prefer to be killed by germans then commies - becouse germans would say that they kill him for being jew and polish patriot,which was true,when soviets would lie that he is american and german spy.

That is what made commies worst then germans - they lied,and made childrem of their victim learn poems about their murderers.
Commies really made polish children learn poems about soviet secret service - when germans,at least,do not demand that their victims children would learn poems about gestapo.

So that’s the name of the guy who said that. I was curious about that.

 

[GoldRanger]

The reason that I said Nazi Germany was 90 percent in the wrong but the UK was 10 percent wrong, and conversely the Germans were 10 percent in the right. Was because Germany did not just launch a random war based on nothing. Like for instance if tomorrow the US launced nukes at NATO that would be 100 percent in the wrong there is no justification.

But Germany does have cause to fight with England and France for their treatment after ww1 and to undo the Versailles treaty. If Germany did not try to wipe out the Jews and Slavs, and enslave the surviving Slavs in eastern Europe. Then Germany would not have been evil in that case you could argue they are equal to or better than the Allies. But they did do genocide so that point is moot.

The reason that Palestine isn't 90% in the wrong is because the issue is much more complicated(you can argue Hamas is 90% in the wrong as they do want to wipe out Jews) but Palestinians do have a claim to the land(so do Jews calm down this is why it's complicated) and the Israeli security forces DO sometimes go overboard, no not accidently killing someone in a bombing, I give Israel passes for collateral because that's how wars work. But the IDF and settlers do sometimes go past the territory they currently have and go for more, and have used the Hamas attacks in Gaza to do crackdowns in the West Bank which is not where the fighting is. Also in some instances where some Palestinians do attacks, the Israelis DO do collective punishment.
If the circumstances were reversed are you saying you wouldn't be angry at Israel, and supportive of resistance? I mean can you honestly tell me that if some Jews killed three people and then the security forces of those people arrested hundreds of Jews including yourself who had nothing to do with it. Would you just say "Well they were only doing their job to protect their people?" I have doubts I think you'd say something like this "Those fucking antisemitic racist bastards arresting all of us for what 2 people did! This is bullshit!"

Also I have never said that Israel should stop it's attacks on Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist group Israel is justified in taking them out, sometimes civillian casualties are unavoidable, however Israel should not go after civilians on purpose or be overly callous.

They keep refusing any compromise or negotiations in good faith, keep launching unprovoked attacks even after losing every time they do it again and again and again, they refuse to even entertain the notion of a single Jew living on their territory while the converse is obviously not true given that 20% of Israel's population is Muslim, and Jews have an equally if not a more valid claim to the land than they do. I don't see how they can be any more than 10% in the right here, even factoring in everything you said.

At some point you must face reality if you keep failing again and again and getting your situation worse with each attempt, but they just refuse to learn, and so they'll keep paying the price for that, as they should.

 

[ATP]

They keep refusing any compromise or negotiations in good faith, keep launching unprovoked attacks even after losing every time they do it again and again and again, they refuse to even entertain the notion of a single Jew living on their territory while the converse is obviously not true given that 20% of Israel's population is Muslim, and Jews have an equally if not a more valid claim to the land than they do. I don't see how they can be any more than 10% in the right here, even factoring in everything you said.

At some point you must face reality if you keep failing again and again and getting your situation worse with each attempt, but they just refuse to learn, and so they'll keep paying the price for that, as they should.

Arafat agreed to Rabin plan.And,he was not his murderer,if you forget it.

 

[strunkenwhite]

If it had 'only' lasted to the 60's/70's, it would have killed far more people, and without the sharp, comprehensive ideological defeat of fascism, and decades of children being indoctrinated into it, even if it failed, you'd still have hundreds of thousands to millions of hardline adherents.

Imagine if being a Nazi was as popular as being a tankie.

If the nazis had been willing to nuke the allies, but the allies weren't willing to nuke the nazis, then horrific amounts of Europe might have ended up under mushroom clouds.

Fat chance of that, to be honest. The horror of nuclear weapons was cultivated over time, and also MacArthur would probably have gotten his way if the consequence of abstention was "lose all of Europe" and not "stalemate in East Asia"

 

[Zachowon]

MacArthur should have been president

 

[LordsFire]

Imagine if being a Nazi was as popular as being a tankie.

Fat chance of that, to be honest. The horror of nuclear weapons was cultivated over time, and also MacArthur would probably have gotten his way if the consequence of abstention was "lose all of Europe" and not "stalemate in East Asia"

The whole premise was 'The allies don't have the guts to finish Nazi Germany off,' which is why I raised the possibility of nuclear cowardice.

 

[King Arts]

MacArthur should have been president

Holy shit Zach. We actually agree, fuck Truman. MacArthur wanted to nuke the CCP he was the hero who would have made sure all of Korea was free.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

If it had 'only' lasted to the 60's/70's, it would have killed far more people, and without the sharp, comprehensive ideological defeat of fascism, and decades of children being indoctrinated into it, even if it failed, you'd still have hundreds of thousands to millions of hardline adherents.

I would point out that even with the comprehensive defeat of the Nazis *and* public awareness of the absolute horror of the Holocaust, elements of Nazi ideology such as state operated eugenics remained in place in the United States all the way into the 1990s. For that matter, the legal status in the U.S. to this day remains that forced sterilization remains perfectly legal and could be resumed by any state at its whim.

There have been several scandals about “voluntary” sterilization programs in prisons that aren’t actually voluntary, but this somewhat buries the lede that the courts could legally order *outright* involuntary sterilizations.

 

[Bacle]

I would point out that even with the comprehensive defeat of the Nazis *and* public awareness of the absolute horror of the Holocaust, elements of Nazi ideology such as state operated eugenics remained in place in the United States all the way into the 1990s. For that matter, the legal status in the U.S. to this day remains that forced sterilization remains perfectly legal and could be resumed by any state at its whim.

There have been several scandals about “voluntary” sterilization programs in prisons that aren’t actually voluntary, but this somewhat buries the lede that the courts could legally order *outright* involuntary sterilizations.

That doesn't even touch what the US gov did on Native reservations with large scale involuntary sterilizations of young natives for decades.

That's really one of those parts of law that needs to be removed from the books completely, not just simply 'not enforced'.

It's a weapon that is far too dangerous to be left in the hands of the increasing corrupt DoJ and Fed, and one that has been used/abused against some of the most vulnerable populations in the US in the life time of the older members of this site.

 

[AmosTrask]

That doesn't even touch what the US gov did on Native reservations with large scale involuntary sterilizations of young natives for decades.

That's really one of those parts of law that needs to be removed from the books completely, not just simply 'not enforced'.

It's a weapon that is far too dangerous to be left in the hands of the increasing corrupt DoJ and Fed, and one that has been used/abused against some of the most vulnerable populations in the US in the life time of the older members of this site.

I wouldn't trust any government who have shit like that in the law. Your government used to sterilize even white populations if they were the wrong kind of white(poor and unable to pay bribes).

 

[ShadowArxxy]

To be fair

That doesn't even touch what the US gov did on Native reservations with large scale involuntary sterilizations of young natives for decades.

In my opinion, one of the scary things about the genocide of Native Americans is it was pretty much supported across the political spectrum. Even the most radical progressives explicitly agreed that the “Indians” needed to be gotten rid of, they just pushed for cultural genocide over the outright mass killings that everyone else considered the default.

 

[AmosTrask]

To be fair


In my opinion, one of the scary things about the genocide of Native Americans is it was pretty much supported across the political spectrum. Even the most radical progressives explicitly agreed that the “Indians” needed to be gotten rid of, they just pushed for cultural genocide over the outright mass killings that everyone else considered the default.

This includes Lincoln himself by his own words and actions.

 

[S'task]

It's not talked about much, but many of the Indian tribes outright sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War explicitly because they felt they had a better shot of getting fair treatment with the Confederates than with the Federal government...

 

[AmosTrask]

It's not talked about much, but many of the Indian tribes outright sided with the Confederacy during the Civil War explicitly because they felt they had a better shot of getting fair treatment with the Confederates than with the Federal government...

True. Although given those same states were actively exterminating the tribes before the Civil War I don't think the Confederacy ever planned on following through with their promises.

 

[King Arts]

True. Although given those same states were actively exterminating the tribes before the Civil War I don't think the Confederacy ever planned on following through with their promises.

But a divided US would not have been able to take almost all the continent as the natives could have teamed up with one American nation vs another.

 

[TheRejectionist]

So apparently this happening now.