How much of Westeros could the combined forces of Rohan and Gondor conquer?

[Tyzuris]

Asssume the continent of Westeros gets warped to include the countries of Rohan and Gondor. Assume Gondor is placed between Eyerie and Riverrun with Gondor's coast intact and Rohan to the north of Gondor inlands.

Assume this takes place a decade after the Return of the King with Aragorn as ruler of Gondor and Eomer as king of Rohan.

And assume this thing takes place during the first book of The Song of Ice and Fire.

And if there would be no war, how do you guys see Aragorn and Eomer deal with the pen of psychotic reptilians in human skins that are the Westeros noble houses?

 

[King Arts]

Asssume the continent of Westeros gets warped to include the countries of Rohan and Gondor. Assume Gondor is placed between Eyerie and Riverrun with Gondor's coast intact and Rohan to the north of Gondor inlands.

Assume this takes place a decade after the Return of the King with Aragorn as ruler of Gondor and Eomer as king of Rohan.

And assume this thing takes place during the first book of The Song of Ice and Fire.

And if there would be no war, how do you guys see Aragorn and Eomer deal with the pen of psychotic reptilians in human skins that are the Westeros noble houses?

I mean are the westerosi that bad I only remember 3 fucked up ones Lannister, Bolton, and Frey.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Book or Movie, the Westerosi forces significantly outnumber the Gondorians and Rohirrim. Plus Westeros seems to possess far more strategic depth. We've never seen much of South Gondor and the like but Minas Tirith is on the Northern Border of their territory and Rohan doesn't seem to have many cities beyond Edoras as the Dunland Wildmen (and Saruman's Orcs) were able to overrun much of the country it seemed.

A decade after Aragorn attained his throne should help with streamlining things but I feel they're too outnumbered by the Five Kingdoms that any qualitative differences to overcome.

 

[ATP]

Westeros could gather 300.000 levies,when Gondor and Rohan together maybe 60.000.
And,they do not have plate armours.
Even movie version would lost,unless they fought during Westeros cyvil war supporting one side.

 

[ATP]

Asssume the continent of Westeros gets warped to include the countries of Rohan and Gondor. Assume Gondor is placed between Eyerie and Riverrun with Gondor's coast intact and Rohan to the north of Gondor inlands.

Assume this takes place a decade after the Return of the King with Aragorn as ruler of Gondor and Eomer as king of Rohan.

And assume this thing takes place during the first book of The Song of Ice and Fire.

And if there would be no war, how do you guys see Aragorn and Eomer deal with the pen of psychotic reptilians in human skins that are the Westeros noble houses?

Westeros is too strong.
Better send one Westeros Kingdom to MiddleEarth.
Here,good but dead story about Westerlands in MiddleEarth:

Hear Me Roar: The Lannisters in the War of the Ring Chapter 1: I Gandalf the Grey, a Lord of the Rings + A song of Ice and Fire Crossover fanfic | FanFiction

www.fanfiction.net

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Westeros has a technological advantage with plate armor, ballistas, their green greek fire, has humongous castles everywhere, etc. Westeros at the start of ASOIAF's world is also in a far better state than Middle-Earth just after Aragorn having been crowned king. Gondor's lands were underpopulated due to the long war of attrition with Sauron.

Another issue to consider is magic. After Aragorn was crowned king, Gandalf left and the elves are gone. Westeros however still has witches, necromancers, dragons, etc hanging about and could aid the Westerosi against the invaders.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Also Westeros has far more advanced and developed tax and thus revenue policies.

I don't think Aragorn even has a tax policy. It certainly wasn't written about in any of the original Tolkien lore.

Pay for all of those levies and castles and such.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Also Westeros has far more advanced and developed tax and thus revenue policies.

I don't think Aragorn even has a tax policy. It certainly wasn't written about in any of the original Tolkien lore.

Pay for all of those levies and castles and such.

Gondor obviously does, and has done so for years. The tax system just wasn't important enough to talk about.
As for Westerosi systems being better somehow...that's not proven at all.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Gondor and Rohan could win over one or two of the Seven Kingdoms easily: the North. Given House Stark's rather obsession with honor, Ned Stark would easily get along with Eomer and Aragon. The Vale though, they'd also be won over as well, with both Rohan and the Vale having excellent horsemen. It's the rest of the Seven Kingdoms that would be a huge challenge. Though if Gondor and Rohan would have to fight all Seven Kingdoms, they'd ultimately lose due to the numerical advantage that the Seven Kingdoms have (and this is when Robert Baratheon is king).

 

[mandragon]

Also Westeros has far more advanced and developed tax and thus revenue policies.

I don't think Aragorn even has a tax policy. It certainly wasn't written about in any of the original Tolkien lore.

Pay for all of those levies and castles and such.

This made me laugh bro I forgot about that whole debacle

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Ah well, what the hell. Why not a VS thread.


Are we talking about the books? For both? Should I assume Bob is already in the North?

So we've added two entire countries to Westeros, without actually subtracting any of Westeros, do I have that right?
My first instinct is that this effectively cuts the north clean off the continent, it might as well be on mars now. Projecting authority northward was already a massive crapshoot, the Crown's authority in the north had to be based almost exclusively on personal friendships and praying for a simple lack of conflict, besides that the South ruled the North on paper only. Adding an extra few hundred miles of open terrain that you don't have *any* control over between them means any illusion of northern control is now dispelled.
If Bob is in the north, it may take many months for scouts to actually figure out what has happened, much less get the royal family home by land. A Sea journey would be possible, if they cared to take the risk considering not knowing what the fuck is wrong with the continent.
Would the ravens even be able to navigate the altered area? Quite possibly not, meaning until someone did... whatever it is they do to teach them their routes, the North would be cut off in communication as well.

Contact will likely be very limited at first. What people don't really appreciate is how slowly things move in a Medieval setting, how long it takes to even get anywhere or communicate with your subordinates. Like think about how much time it takes to send a message to someone across your country and then get a message back when it's delivered at a walking speed.
Aragorn has, if I recall, a Palantir, and in that case can peer into the neighboring lands from afar. Eomer is likely to simply have his riders chase off any lost Westerosi, forbidding their entry into Rohan until he has his bearings. Nations tend to be fairly isolationist in Tolkien, so it's going to be the Westerosi who are pushing for a dialogue. I doubt there would be any significant fighting a la "border disputes" simply because the fear of the strange and supernatural situation would make any medieval lord hesitant to make anything but a defensive move.
The language barrier is something no one likes discussing in these scenarios, but obviously if it exists it would have an extreme dampening effect on relations, slowing down any possible communications to a crawl.

After everyone's done mapping out their new borders and staring at each other awkwardly from passing ships, it's likely that an expedition would be put together by the Westerosi to enter into Gondor by Sea. Approaching Gondor by "Westeros south" would be unlikely, they'd have no idea where they were going trying to navigate Andrast, the White Mountains would be functionally impenetrable, and they wouldnt be 100% clear on where Rohan's territory ends, only that every time so much as a wheelbarrow rolls into it the Rohirim are there to knock it over and turn them back. Ships trying to scout the new coast line likely would have seen Dol Amroth at a distance at least, or at the very least know that Gondor must have a major port due to the presence of their own ships, so that is almost certainly where the expedition would be aiming for.

Opening relations would probably be peaceful and uneventful, particularly if they're trying to overcome a language barrier. Gifts would be exchanged, Maps compared, on some level the Westerosi would be made to understand that the prince of Dol Amroth was not the King of Gondor, and that the King lived further in land. The Gondorians would be made at least vaguely aware of the political structure of Westeros, but there would be no substantial, in depth cultural exchange. It is possible that the prince would offer to send some men back to King's Landing, but I cant say whether the Westerosi would take them up on the offer. I wouldnt be surprised if (if an extra man was available for the task) a Westerosi scholar chose to stay in Dol Amroth so as to hopefully learn enough of their language to serve as an interpreter for the next meeting.

A second expedition would have to be arranged after reporting back to King's landing with the specific intention, and authority, to meet with the King of Gondor specifically. I dont know who they'd send, but it would have to be someone trustworthy who could speak for the crown. Making Ned Hand of the King on schedule would be completely out of the question, but it's entirely likely he'd be called upon to act as Robert's proxy here, considering it would be important for him to meet this new neighboring state's leaders and size them up. Aragorn would likely foresee this meeting and call upon Eomer to come to Gondor so that he himself could meet with the Westerosi Delegation.

I foresee no real disputes at such a stage, Aragorn would permit trade with the Westerosi, I'm sure they would reciprocate, he'd be likely to grant them safe passage as well, meaning the hurdles of crossing northward would be mostly logistical.

All things being equal, merchants would flock to Dol Amroth and Osgiliath, but land trade would be more of a trickle. Maesters and learned men would flock to Gondor, curious about it's history and culture.


Now, the tricky thing is not so much how do Gondor and Rohan react to Westeros, or even how does Westeros react to them, but rather how this alters all the various schemes and plans currently in the works. Does Bran fall from a tower in this world where frantic riders might arrive in Winterfell with impossible stories of the continent shifting and warping? Does this delay the various attempts to sow fracture in King's landing? Who can Robert name Hand when Ned is so extraordinarily needed at home?

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on how this effects the court dramas of Kings Landing, and maybe we can spin the scenario further out from there.

 

[Agent23]

I kinds doubt all of the magic and magic users just left the LotR side here, and no one is accounting for things like mythril and other magical artifacts/products of elven and dwarves artifice.

And the various magic users in Westeros are hardly in a position to aid the Westerosi side, for starters from the books it appears that magic is much rarer and weirded and comes at a higher price in AasoIaF than in LotR.

And the ones that can practice it have no love for the rulers of Westeros.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

Westeros has a technological advantage with plate armor, ballistas, their green greek fire, has humongous castles everywhere, etc. Westeros at the start of ASOIAF's world is also in a far better state than Middle-Earth just after Aragorn having been crowned king. Gondor's lands were underpopulated due to the long war of attrition with Sauron.

Middle Earth does have plate in both films and books the knowledge isn't unknown to them.

Also, this isn't a straight up fight between the two sides and by that it isn't clarified by the OP if this 'warp' goes unnoticed by the Westerosi where they think both Kingdoms where already their or if it's an out of nowhere ISOT with the locals understandably terrified by this act of Gods.

If it's the former the two kingdoms just stay out of the alliances in the seven kingdoms politics and if it's the later, Westeros is far from unified in book one Dorne isn't sending anything to help in any conflict but a paltry force as minimum as required and the Tyrells probably the same.

Meanwhile in such a situation both Rohan and Gondor (Especially the later) have been through the same dance of a defensive war against annihilating enemies before Gondor wouldn't surrender to the Easterlings just as Rohan wouldn't the Dunlendings, neither will surrender unreasonably to Roberts sovereignty just becaue he demands it.

Rohan while smaller is definitely more of an effective army of calvary than the Dothraki and they really only have the North to deal with whilst Gondor could easily do a repeat of Minas Tirith especially when there is no way that Westeros armies which are majority peasant levies can outdo the Witch King The rest of the nine, Uruk-Hai, Easterling's, Trolls, Fell beast, Baseline Orc, etc.

In short, my prediction is that Westeros could defeat both if united completely they won't and the Gondorians and Rohirrim will probably hold out until inevitably the Seven Kingdoms go into civil conflict at which point, they will try to force peace with the various factions.

Another issue to consider is magic. After Aragorn was crowned king, Gandalf left and the elves are gone
Westeros however still has witches, necromancers, dragons, etc hanging about and could aid the Westerosi against the invaders.

This is grossly disingenuous for starters ASOIAF only has three live dragons and they are nothing comparable to Smaug's worst day on their best and worst still they aren't near grown yet and since Aragorn and Eomer know very well that they exist what given the formers living when Smaug died, his tutelage by the elfs, and wanderings. While the latter's ancestor killed one in a notable incident both are liable to not dismiss rumors of their existence out right and prepare which is bad news when Gondor has experience dealing with fell beast.

Meanwhile Witches and Necromancers are all independents with little reason to help, The Three Eyed Raven will raise eyebrows but will probably not intervene as will the Children of the Forest, neither will Melisandre or the rest of the Red Priest (Minus Thoros) and Qyburn won't have the clout to get noticed for a while.

Outside those specific people their few are that practice magic except Wood Witches and a few rando's that didn't get involved in the War of Five Kings so why would that change here?

Even then, what Wood Witch can beat the Palantir in sight? Aragorn can Freecam all of Westeros without repercussions in Saurons absence thanks to the Orthanc stone.

 

[ATP]

Middle Earth does have plate in both films and books the knowledge isn't unknown to them.

Also, this isn't a straight up fight between the two sides and by that it isn't clarified by the OP if this 'warp' goes unnoticed by the Westerosi where they think both Kingdoms where already their or if it's an out of nowhere ISOT with the locals understandably terrified by this act of Gods.

If it's the former the two kingdoms just stay out of the alliances in the seven kingdoms politics and if it's the later, Westeros is far from unified in book one Dorne isn't sending anything to help in any conflict but a paltry force as minimum as required and the Tyrells probably the same.

Meanwhile in such a situation both Rohan and Gondor (Especially the later) have been through the same dance of a defensive war against annihilating enemies before Gondor wouldn't surrender to the Easterlings just as Rohan wouldn't the Dunlendings, neither will surrender unreasonably to Roberts sovereignty just becaue he demands it.

Rohan while smaller is definitely more of an effective army of calvary than the Dothraki and they really only have the North to deal with whilst Gondor could easily do a repeat of Minas Tirith especially when there is no way that Westeros armies which are majority peasant levies can outdo the Witch King The rest of the nine, Uruk-Hai, Easterling's, Trolls, Fell beast, Baseline Orc, etc.

In short, my prediction is that Westeros could defeat both if united completely they won't and the Gondorians and Rohirrim will probably hold out until inevitably the Seven Kingdoms go into civil conflict at which point, they will try to force peace with the various factions.

This is grossly disingenuous for starters ASOIAF only has three live dragons and they are nothing comparable to Smaug's worst day on their best and worst still they aren't near grown yet and since Aragorn and Eomer know very well that they exist what given the formers living when Smaug died, his tutelage by the elfs, and wanderings. While the latter's ancestor killed one in a notable incident both are liable to not dismiss rumors of their existence out right and prepare which is bad news when Gondor has experience dealing with fell beast.

Meanwhile Witches and Necromancers are all independents with little reason to help, The Three Eyed Raven will raise eyebrows but will probably not intervene as will the Children of the Forest, neither will Melisandre or the rest of the Red Priest (Minus Thoros) and Qyburn won't have the clout to get noticed for a while.

Outside those specific people their few are that practice magic except Wood Witches and a few rando's that didn't get involved in the War of Five Kings so why would that change here?

Even then, what Wood Witch can beat the Palantir in sight? Aragorn can Freecam all of Westeros without repercussions in Saurons absence thanks to the Orthanc stone.

1.Middle Earths do not have plate armour,it was introduced in Movies.

And,Uruk-hai are no supersoldiers,only super orcs - only battle when whe knew about loses is when Eomer anihilated 80+x Uruk hai/x- unit attacking from forest/ and 100 mordor orcs loosing 15KIA from 120 people unit.
So,they obviously are not something much better then peasant levies,mordor orcs are probably just as bad as them.

2.Mostly true,few magic users which could help Westeros would not do much,if anytching.And dragons could be schoot down,especially that some elves still remained/Legolas,and Arwena brothers/

P.S send it to your rant thread about me,if you need it again.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

Middle Earths do not have plate armour,it was introduced in Movies.

Proof? Because the only evidence I see for its non-existence is a lack of explicit mention, if it's mentioned that the numenorians had literal bows made of steel I seriously doubt the concept in unknown to them.

Furthermore, the only people in the series that seem to be mentioned on multiple occasions are always either Ranger's, Rohirim or people that are traveling who can't be bothered to weight themselves down in plate.

Your argument boils down to "Steak is never mentioned explicitly in LOTR and thus it doesn't exist even if cows do."

Which is bull because in a world where there is craftsman of The Numenorians, Dwarfs, Noldor, Sauron and Aule who made everything from Steel Bows to the Palantir saying they couldn't think or fathom of something which could be as simple as this is disengenous.

Also having plate when others don't is an automatic win condition in any case.

Second their is no explicit mention of this being either the book or movie canon by the OP so I can draw from whichever I choose especially in instances where one source fails and the other provides.

And,Uruk-hai are no supersoldiers,only super orcs - only battle when whe knew about loses is when Eomer anihilated 80+x Uruk hai/x- unit attacking from forest/ and 100 mordor orcs loosing 15KIA from 120 people unit.

No, they are just rampaging marauders who happen to be the product of the first Dark Lords desire for subjects and foot soldiers the fact that you are pointing to a perfectly coordinated surprise night attack against them by a Badass like Eomer is proof enough that you don't have a leg to stand on.

The above is a depiction of a Medieval French Levy they are a hodgepodge of farmers impressed into were put into service with basic weapons and from there they scavenged whatever they could armor wise from fallen enemies.

Gondor and Rohans armies are much better armed than that and have faced things like Trolls and Olog-Hai things that Westroes doesnt deal with on a day to day basis.

So,they obviously are not something much better then peasant levies,mordor orcs are probably just as bad as them.

Thats a lot of supposition, Orcs seem more likely to throw themselves into a meatgrinder than peasants and much more likely to be better armed and armored overall because their society literally revolves around pillaging as opposed to farmers being pressed into service.

P.S send it to your rant thread about me,if you need it again.

The thread isn't for you rambling in general, it's a place to shove all your derailing post about Germans/Nazi's involving Poland as long as you don't bring the subject up and cause a derail nothing shall be put there. Is that understood? Good. Because this isn't a place to talk on that subject.

 

[ATP]

Proof? Because the only evidence I see for its non-existence is a lack of explicit mention, if it's mentioned that the numenorians had literal bows made of steel I seriously doubt the concept in unknown to them.

Furthermore, the only people in the series that seem to be mentioned on multiple occasions are always either Ranger's, Rohirim or people that are traveling who can't be bothered to weight themselves down in plate.

Your argument boils down to "Steak is never mentioned explicitly in LOTR and thus it doesn't exist even if cows do."

Which is bull because in a world where there is craftsman of The Numenorians, Dwarfs, Noldor, Sauron and Aule who made everything from Steel Bows to the Palantir saying they couldn't think or fathom of something which could be as simple as this is disengenous.

Also having plate when others don't is an automatic win condition in any case.

Second their is no explicit mention of this being either the book or movie canon by the OP so I can draw from whichever I choose especially in instances where one source fails and the other provides.

No, they are just rampaging marauders who happen to be the product of the first Dark Lords desire for subjects and foot soldiers the fact that you are pointing to a perfectly coordinated surprise night attack against them by a Badass like Eomer is proof enough that you don't have a leg to stand on.

The above is a depiction of a Medieval French Levy they are a hodgepodge of farmers impressed into were put into service with basic weapons and from there they scavenged whatever they could armor wise from fallen enemies.

Gondor and Rohans armies are much better armed than that and have faced things like Trolls and Olog-Hai things that Westroes doesnt deal with on a day to day basis.

Thats a lot of supposition, Orcs seem more likely to throw themselves into a meatgrinder than peasants and much more likely to be better armed and armored overall because their society literally revolves around pillaging as opposed to farmers being pressed into service.

The thread isn't for you rambling in general, it's a place to shove all your derailing post about Germans/Nazi's involving Poland as long as you don't bring the subject up and cause a derail nothing shall be put there. Is that understood? Good. Because this isn't a place to talk on that subject.

1.Each and every time when Tolkien told what kind of armour people/elves/dwarws use,it is mail.
Or,in case of Easterlings,some kind of lamellar armour.
When there is on even one case when plate armour was mentioned.

2.It was mot night attack by Eomer,he was ambushed by Uruk-hai unit attacking from forest with unknown strenght,and Ugluk at the same time attacked from other side.

Yet,in situation where uruks had suprise on their side,they still was wiped out killing only 15 riders.

And,i used this occasion,becouse it is only place in LOTR when we knew how big casualties were.Well,mostly,we still do not knew how many uruks attacked from forest.

3.Medieval french peasant levies was basically not used for fight,knights,men-at-arms,and city militias was for that.Well,mercaneries,too.

Only Kingdoms which still used peasant levies on battlefield was England and Scotland - and that was welsch archers and spears,and scotland pikes.

4.Who take 3 my threads and name it as my rambling?

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Middle earth isn't at the stage of plate armor in the books, Numenor may of had it since they were basically a borderline Steampunk civilization but Gondor does not.

Middle earth's military technology would be around 1250 possibly 1330 although I never saw mention of brigandines while Westeros is at the very early plate armor stage which would be 1400 on the above chart.
Middle Earth does seem to be significantly more advanced when it comes to nearly everything else though, Even Dale was noted to be famous for making super sophisticated toys that would be more fitting in a Victorian era style setting.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Middle earth isn't at the stage of plate armor in the books, Numenor may of had it since they were basically a borderline Steampunk civilization but Gondor does not.

Middle earth's military technology would be around 1250 possibly 1330 although I never saw mention of brigandines while Westeros is at the very early plate armor stage which would be 1400 on the above chart.
Middle Earth does seem to be significantly more advanced when it comes to nearly everything else though, Even Dale was noted to be famous for making super sophisticated toys that would be more fitting in a Victorian era style setting.

Idk Rohan Looks like they're 1100 in armor but Go for looks closer to 1400's imo

 

[ATP]

Middle earth isn't at the stage of plate armor in the books, Numenor may of had it since they were basically a borderline Steampunk civilization but Gondor does not.

Middle earth's military technology would be around 1250 possibly 1330 although I never saw mention of brigandines while Westeros is at the very early plate armor stage which would be 1400 on the above chart.
Middle Earth does seem to be significantly more advanced when it comes to nearly everything else though, Even Dale was noted to be famous for making super sophisticated toys that would be more fitting in a Victorian era style setting.

Indeed.When they mentioned what kind of armour was used by humans,it was almost always mail,only Easterlings had some kind of lamellar armour.
The same goes for dwarves,elves and orcs - only mail/remember two orcs who almost catched Frodo and Sam? tracker with bow had no armour,but warrior with spear had mail.Not that it helped him.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Idk Rohan Looks like they're 1100 in armor but Go for looks closer to 1400's imo

I specified that I was referring to the book version rather than movie version. Gondor in the books were onlyt ever described as wearing mail.