Immigration and multiculturalism news

Marduk

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....how did you see a stat about men murdering their wives and decide that feminism is to blame?
Because divorce dynamics...
Read the post i quoted.
Cherrypicked study is irrelevant and cherrypicked.
Meanwhile in the same wiki:
A paper published in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, written by Douglas Allen, on the economics of same-sex marriage, argues that the introduction of no-fault divorce led to a six-fold increase in just two years, after a century of rather stable divorce rates. Also, the law increased the rate at which women entered the workforce, increased the number of hours worked in a week, increased the so-called "feminization of poverty," and increased the age at which people married.[17]
 

SoliFortissimi

Well-known member
Cherrypicked study is irrelevant and cherrypicked.
How is it cherrypicked?

Because divorce dynamics...
Read the post i quoted.
Disgusting.
Meanwhile in the same wiki:

How is the addition of workers and raising the age of marriage supposed to be a bad thing?

Jesus Christ, why does this keep happening? It's like half of the camp would rather the US become a Third World country- or worse- as long as they get to punch down on women.
 

Marduk

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How is it cherrypicked?
You picked the one most favoring your position out of friggin not so right wing wikipedia's selection.
Disgusting.
Yes you are.
How is the addition of workers and raising the age of marriage supposed to be a bad thing?
Have you heard of the developed countries' universal fertility crisis or is that missing from your news feed for some strange reason?
Jesus Christ, why does this keep happening? It's like half of the camp would rather the US become a Third World country- or worse- as long as they get to punch down on women.
Big words coming from someone who supports immigration policy transforming it into one anyway.
Imagine thinking feminism is good for our countries while claiming to be a right winger.
 

SoliFortissimi

Well-known member
You picked the one most favoring your position out of friggin not so right wing wikipedia's selection.
I hope you realize how dangerous it is to restrict yourself to sources of data that are ideologically aligned with you? Science has no biases, it's just what it is.

And of course, you are free to refuse to believe it and declare that scientists are all leftist agents whenever they don't agree with you, but that is inimical to the universal human objective of gaining the right knowledge.
Yes you are.
Says the fellow that's trying to victim blame women who got murdered by their husbands.
Have you heard of the developed countries' universal fertility crisis or is that missing from your news feed for some strange reason?
Who hasn't? I, along with my fellows, believe that immigration is a safer option to raising population. Milton Friedman has already laid out how beneficial illegal immigration is to host countries.

It's either that or falling into an eternal recession.
Big words coming from someone who supports immigration policy transforming it into one anyway.
Imagine thinking feminism is good for our countries while claiming to be a right winger.
Once again, read up on Milton Friedman. And yes, as someone who has sisters, nieces, and a mother, I do support the protection and fair rights of women.

Leave that purity spiral to the leftists.
 

Marduk

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I hope you realize how dangerous it is to restrict yourself to sources of data that are ideologically aligned with you? Science has no biases, it's just what it is.


And of course, you are free to refuse to believe it and declare that scientists are all leftist agents whenever they don't agree with you, but that is inimical to the universal human objective of gaining the right knowledge.
Science has no biases, but shitty leftist scientists do, and boy there are many of those these days.
Why would i choose them to believe out of all the options, i don't know.

Says the fellow that's trying to victim blame women who got murdered by their husbands.
Victim blame my ass, keep the leftist attack terms to yourself and read what i quoted again, it's well explained.
Who hasn't? I, along with my fellows, believe that immigration is a safer option to raising population. Milton Friedman has already laid out how beneficial illegal immigration is to host countries.
Are you playing tactical libertarian?
Mass immigration is less safe than sacrificing raising population, that is what i and my fellows believe.
The Friedman immigration view is one of Saudi-Singaporean style of immigration where migrants work for a proverbial bowl of rice and have only a right to shut the fuck up and work or else.
As long as bleeding hearts and civil rights exist in our countries, and the migrants have any access to welfare state, simply not doable, and instead what he warns will happen in such a scenario happens - infinite immigrants, and he's not saying it like it's a good thing, unlike you.
If you want to use Friedman's argument for illegal immigration, you have to acknowledge that all the western countries are having completely wrong policy on treating immigrants to use that argument, and Saudis are the closest to doing it right.
Are you willing to stand by Saudi immigration policy with Friedman?

I'd have reservations even to that style of immigration, but i still think it would be vastly superior to the current setup that is a disaster, and meeting the political conditions to make it work would be even harder than cutting migration overall.
It's either that or falling into an eternal recession.
How did most of the world in the past not have an eternal recession before feminism and mass immigration? In fact most of the countries that got rich, got rich before that.
And those who do it are declining rich countries, trying to halt their decline, while only succeeding at trading one set of problems causing it to another, even more visible kind.
Do we need to pretend to be stupid in this way to avoid offending left-liberal sacred cows and act as if there is no new and unusual problem to address?

Once again, read up on Milton Friedman. And yes, as someone who has sisters, nieces, and a mother, I do support the protection and fair rights of women.
So no rights that men don't have, so no feminism, no affirmative action, no women's rights, only citizen's rights. Otherwise you are a feminist, and so on, a leftist useful idiot.
I'll start respecting feminists when they start caring about equal numbers in garbage collection and prisons as much as they care about equal numbers in CEOs and business leaders.
Leave that purity spiral to the leftists.
Yes, and leave them feminism to.
 
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SoliFortissimi

Well-known member
As long as bleeding hearts and civil rights exist in our countries, and the migrants have any access to welfare state,
That's what we need to target. As on most things, I have a nuanced view of the welfare state. I want to see it destroyed.
How did most of the world in the past not have an eternal recession before feminism and mass immigration

The world of the past didn't have a population as rich and well educated as the modern world. If you want to see a society that doesn't need immigrants to keep growing, I'll point you to India and Nigeria.

But I don't fancy you want America to become like them, do you?
So no rights that men don't have, so no feminism, no affirmative action, no women's rights, only citizen's rights
Glad to see we agree.
 

Marduk

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That's what we need to target. As on most things, I have a nuanced view of the welfare state. I want to see it destroyed.
So do you have a realistic way to get a majority of voters in the typical western country willing to see half of "asylum seekers" starve in front of their tent cities to keep them in line and the more useful rest working yet behaving themselves (and young leftists too) away from crime and rioting in protest of that, presumably by threat of extreme and immediate violence by the police, or is it just a pie in the sky to distract us?
The world of the past didn't have a population as rich and well educated as the modern world. If you want to see a society that doesn't need immigrants to keep growing, I'll point you to India and Nigeria.
If you want to see how growing is not something that makes a society rich or nice to live in, i'll point you to Bangladesh, India and Pakistan.
We want high GDP per capita, GDP itself is meaningless for the average citizen, people prefer countries with tiny GDP and population but high GDP per capita over those with high GDP and population but low GDP per capita.
But I don't fancy you want America to become like them, do you?

Glad to see we agree.
Likewise.
 

SoliFortissimi

Well-known member
So do you have a realistic way to get a majority of voters in the typical western country willing to see half of "asylum seekers" starve in front of their tent cities to keep them in line and the more useful rest working yet behaving themselves (and young leftists too) away from crime and rioting in protest of that, presumably by threat of extreme and immediate violence by the police, or is it just a pie in the sky to distract us?
But they won't starve. Immigrants, at present, are duly joining the workforce and are integral to the economies of several states. They demand less than the Unions.

As for welfare, that's a longer game. I suspect it can only be done one state at a time, and by focusing on the working citizens and cutting out the middlemen journalists.
f you want to see how growing is not something that makes a society rich or nice to live in, i'll point you to Bangladesh, India and Pakistan.
All three are much richer than they once were BECAUSE of growth, so I don't see what you're even trying to accomplish here.

At any rate, why is it that it's always the most fanatically zealous right wingers who keep repeating Leftist rhetoric back to me? Degrowth, anti-trade, anti-immigration, anti-corporate ideologies seem to have become mainstream dogma in Conservative circles. It's rapidly leading to the point where a Conservative will just be a Marxist-Leninist that dislikes women, other races, and homosexuals.

These people share more, ideologically speaking, with Stalin than with Adam Smith, Burke, Friedman or John Locke.
 

Marduk

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But they won't starve. Immigrants, at present, are duly joining the workforce and are integral to the economies of several states. They demand less than the Unions.
On the contrary, they demand free housing, which even unions don't, and you know how expensive housing is now.

As for welfare, that's a longer game. I suspect it can only be done one state at a time, and by focusing on the working citizens and cutting out the middlemen journalists.
Again, even more pie in the sky and things to do in long term. Meanwhile the Friedman plan which you throw around specifically requires getting rid of welfare state first, and then having the migrants come and be minimally compensated for profit of local businesses.
Not the other way around, other way around is fucking retarded, yet that's what happens now, and you have no way to change that, except in some unspecified way in unspecified distant future.
All three are much richer than they once were BECAUSE of growth, so I don't see what you're even trying to accomplish here.
They are much richer because of growth per capita, not growth in population. There are still countries with tiny population that are very nice to live in just because they have high GDP per capita. They are also countries that had insane population growth and are even more miserable than before.
At any rate, why is it that it's always the most fanatically zealous right wingers who keep repeating Leftist rhetoric back to me? Degrowth, anti-trade, anti-immigration, anti-corporate ideologies seem to have become mainstream dogma in Conservative circles. It's rapidly leading to the point where a Conservative will just be a Marxist-Leninist that dislikes women, other races, and homosexuals.
Degrowth is a green thing, fuck that. We should grow in machines, not in poor menial labor, even China is done with that and moves it to their de facto colonies in third world, and we don't want to be dumber than China or one of its colonies.
Corporations who are willing to sell out countries in deals with leftists, fuck them, treason charges.
Immigration, i'll start supporting it when it works, now it doesn't, and "but i wish it would be made to work in long term" is not a valid answer, ok, i'll also think of allowing it sometime in unspecified long term, deal?
I'm not against trade, i'm against getting fucked over in trade though.
Muh population growth is just necessary for ponzi schemes like Bismarckian welfare system.
These people share more, ideologically speaking, with Stalin than with Adam Smith, Burke, Friedman or John Locke.
People who are willing to tolerate infinite migrants for bullshit about population growth being the ultimate goal to be pursued at any cost are the same as "no borders, no nations, no deportations" true believer internationalist leftists, who are even less able to run a country than Stalin, who actually did run one, however shitty.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
I believe the opposite was true, on account of that scenario being rarer than "I'm very unhappy with my marriage and the only way to get out of it is for one of us to die."
... you do realize that it was possible to get a divorce before the "no fault" divorce thing, right?
Incidentally, no fault divorce caused a slight increase in man-on-woman homicides, IIRC: Turns out that if your wife is a cheating whore and you know she's going to steal basically half your shit for being a whore as a golden parachute, putting a 9mm in her head becomes an option to some people, especially ex-cops. :sick:
Ironic since it was literally invented by a wife beater of a senator whose wife was suing for divorce on the grounds of wife beating
He pushed for no fault divorce so he could save face and have the divorce go through for "amicable seperation". which incidentally involved NOT paying any alimony or child suupport. causing his wife and children to fall into abject poverty.

Then they "fixed" things by giving all women alimony and child support.
 

SoliFortissimi

Well-known member
Friendly Reminder - Rule 2e Accusations of Extremism. Saying someone has the same ideas as Stalin requires a lot of evidence that wasn't present.
On the contrary, they demand free housing, which even unions don't, and you know how expensive housing is now
That's not the US, that's France.

They are much richer because of growth per capita, not growth in population. There are still countries with tiny population that are very nice to live in just because they have high GDP per capita. They are also countries that had insane population growth and are even more miserable than before.
Once again, what's your point? Are you seriously trying to imply economic growth isn't a good and desirable thing?

migration, i'll start supporting it when it works, now it doesn't
If you're American, it does and always did. The country is built on immigration, and you wouldn't even be here if the anti-immigrant voices of older days were given more weight.

Corporations who are willing to sell out countries in deals with leftists, fuck them, treason charges.
TIL outsourcing to save money and avoid Unions is leftist.
growth is a green thing, fuck that. We should grow in machines, not in poor menial labor, even China is done with that and moves it to their de facto colonies in third world, and we don't want to be dumber than China or one of its colonies.
Don't worry about that. At present, immigrants are involved in menial jobs in the agricultural sector, as well as menial laborers.
I'm not against trade, i'm against getting fucked over in trade though
Bro, nobody gets fucked over in trade. You only get as much as your goods are worth. At present, the US gets lots of cheap lower level manufactured goods thanks to trade with poorer nations, while getting to sell higher value manufactured goods back to them. All fair and above board, and completely voluntary on both sides.
People who are willing to tolerate infinite migrants for bullshit about population growth being the ultimate goal to be pursued at any cost are the same as "no borders, no nations, no deportations" true believer internationalist leftists, who are even less able to run a country than Stalin, who actually did run one, however shitty.
And now we are strawmanning. You basically have the same ideals as Stalin, in that you want a controlled economy where all property is traded according to the diktats of a centralized bureaucracy, and all movement is strictly controlled. You want to make abortion illegal, to persecute homosexuals, to make divorce as difficult as humanely possible, to push women into domestic roles.

And you think THAT is the only real conservatism, as if the only problem with Stalin's tyranny was that it was done in Russia rather than in America, and by a Slav rather than an Anglo-Saxon.

I, on the other hand, believe in real conservatism. Equality for all adult citizens, regardless of the nature of their being. Freedom to do as they will as long as they don't harm other citizens. To trade as they will and move where they wish. To say what they will, worship what they will, and to fight subversion of their beliefs through non-violent means.

Subversions like selling communism branded as conservatism, and excluding those who realize it's not the political tradition of their country.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
But they won't starve. Immigrants, at present, are duly joining the workforce and are integral to the economies of several states. They demand less than the Unions.

As for welfare, that's a longer game. I suspect it can only be done one state at a time, and by focusing on the working citizens and cutting out the middlemen journalists.

All three are much richer than they once were BECAUSE of growth, so I don't see what you're even trying to accomplish here.

At any rate, why is it that it's always the most fanatically zealous right wingers who keep repeating Leftist rhetoric back to me? Degrowth, anti-trade, anti-immigration, anti-corporate ideologies seem to have become mainstream dogma in Conservative circles. It's rapidly leading to the point where a Conservative will just be a Marxist-Leninist that dislikes women, other races, and homosexuals.

These people share more, ideologically speaking, with Stalin than with Adam Smith, Burke, Friedman or John Locke.
You have a near worshipful level of regard for Friedman, and that is where the disconnect comes in between your view and the view of much of the modern Right.

I had to read some of his writings for an aborted Masters of Environmental Management Program, and Friedman wrote about a world of ideal and high minded shit, but is mostly disconnected to the average American on the Right these days.

Friedman is what I call a 'line go up' type, who doesn't much care for anything but 'free' market trade and stuff that mostly makes CEO's richer at the cost of workers and the American populace outside of places like NYC and LA.

Also, when corporations abuse Right Wingers, are you surprised the Right has taken a more Rooseveltian than Reaganite view of corporations.

And that's the thing, what you are seeing is not a Reaganite GOP anymore, you are seeing a GOP that is taking it's ques from the Rooosevelts, which is why you are confused about the political shifts in the GOP away from the Reagan standard.

Free trade has been dead to the GOP since the TTP tried to sell the US workers and farmers out to a lot of Asian nations in exchange for an 'alliance' against the CCP, or since massive corporations decided to off-shore as much as possible.

Friedman is a fool that the modern GOP owes nothing to and should not listen to, because the Roosevelt-type turn of the GOP is a good thing, instead of more Reaganite worship.
 

SoliFortissimi

Well-known member
Friedman is what I call a 'line go up' type, who doesn't much care for anything but 'free' market trade and stuff that mostly makes CEO's richer at the cost of workers and the American populace outside of places like NYC and LA.
It makes everyone richer. A higher tide lifts all boats. That's the entire point of free trade: that people who can make goods for cheaper should get to do so, because it will benefit consumers.

Factory workers in the Western world should blame Unions for their woes, not Free Trade.

are you surprised the Right has taken a more Rooseveltian than Reaganite view of corporations.
Yes, because at that point they're just Communists and should stop pretending to be conservatives. Leave that class warfare rhetoric to the losers of the Cold War.
 

DarthOne

☦️
You have a near worshipful level of regard for Friedman, and that is where the disconnect comes in between your view and the view of much of the modern Right.

I had to read some of his writings for an aborted Masters of Environmental Management Program, and Friedman wrote about a world of ideal and high minded shit, but is mostly disconnected to the average American on the Right these days.

Friedman is what I call a 'line go up' type, who doesn't much care for anything but 'free' market trade and stuff that mostly makes CEO's richer at the cost of workers and the American populace outside of places like NYC and LA.

Also, when corporations abuse Right Wingers, are you surprised the Right has taken a more Rooseveltian than Reaganite view of corporations.

And that's the thing, what you are seeing is not a Reaganite GOP anymore, you are seeing a GOP that is taking it's ques from the Rooosevelts, which is why you are confused about the political shifts in the GOP away from the Reagan standard.

Free trade has been dead to the GOP since the TTP tried to sell the US workers and farmers out to a lot of Asian nations in exchange for an 'alliance' against the CCP, or since massive corporations decided to off-shore as much as possible.

Friedman is a fool that the modern GOP owes nothing to and should not listen to, because the Roosevelt-type turn of the GOP is a good thing, instead of more Reaganite worship.

So long as we’re trying to emulate Theodore and not Franklin Roosevelt.
 

Marduk

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That's not the US, that's France.
Do you even track recent news? You think it's different in US?

Once again, what's your point? Are you seriously trying to imply economic growth isn't a good and desirable thing?
Economic development is good. Number scams that technically are growth but not in a normal economic sense are not good. Go yell at the greens not the immigration control advocates.
Machines are better labor than third world peasants, the places who are full of them are neither rich nor nice to live in, which is why they leave in the first place.
If you're American, it does and always did. The country is built on immigration, and you wouldn't even be here if the anti-immigrant voices of older days were given more weight.
It was called age of colonialism, not age of immigration you victim of leftist education.
The "anti immigrant voices of older days" had bows to fight against people with guns so they lost and were graciously given reservations to live on because the immigrants in question were kinda soft hearted, unlike the current third world.
TIL outsourcing to save money and avoid Unions is leftist.
It's unpatriotic and in the end doesn't solve the problem of leftists, just escapes from it leaving the country to them.
Don't worry about that. At present, immigrants are involved in menial jobs in the agricultural sector, as well as menial laborers.
They won't for long, and you will pay for helping them not do that.
Bro, nobody gets fucked over in trade. You only get as much as your goods are worth. At present, the US gets lots of cheap lower level manufactured goods thanks to trade with poorer nations, while getting to sell higher value manufactured goods back to them. All fair and above board, and completely voluntary on both sides.
China.
And now we are strawmanning. You basically have the same ideals as Stalin, in that you want a controlled economy where all property is traded according to the diktats of a centralized bureaucracy, and all movement is strictly controlled. You want to make abortion illegal, to persecute homosexuals, to make divorce as difficult as humanely possible, to push women into domestic roles.
No, i never said i want that. If you think wanting to have borders stop movement of random people from all over the world is stalinism , i recommend a psychiatrist.
Stop telling me what i want you treasonous shitlib larping as a lolbertarian.
And you think THAT is the only real conservatism, as if the only problem with Stalin's tyranny was that it was done in Russia rather than in America, and by a Slav rather than an Anglo-Saxon.
Nah, that's stereotypical CNN watcher vision of traditional conservatism, which i don't even support, but your CNN rotten brain mistakes my views for just for touching the immigration controversy.
I, on the other hand, believe in real conservatism. Equality for all adult citizens, regardless of the nature of their being. Freedom to do as they will as long as they don't harm other citizens. To trade as they will and move where they wish. To say what they will, worship what they will, and to fight subversion of their beliefs through non-violent means.
That's not conservatism, hate to break it to you bro, by that description you are a left-liberal internationalist, you are lying to yourself and others by claiming to be a conservative, nevermind a real one.
Subversions like selling communism branded as conservatism, and excluding those who realize it's not the political tradition of their country.
Not wanting free trade with countries that do not return the favor is having a brain, not communism. It's something actual communist countries do to our idiot leadership in fact.
Go try set up and run a business in China, i dare you.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
It makes everyone richer. A higher tide lifts all boats. That's the entire point of free trade: that people who can make goods for cheaper should get to do so, because it will benefit consumers.
In an ideal world, yes; in reality, not really.

Not all those boats have the same situation, some have unpatched holes, some have hidden lead paint, some have too much weight, some have busted engines, and some only exist on paper.

Friedman also tends to gloss over corruption that can have massive consequences to product quality (lead paint on kids toys from CCP factories, for example), along with the reality of strategic industries being something you should not off-shore.

Friedman lived in the idealized 'world without borders' crowd, it's very evident in his writings, and his views are not at all close to reality outside of corpo board rooms and activist circles who try to use him to get the Right to self-sabotage even more.

Friedman and his opinions are not something the modern GOP should give a shit about.
Factory workers in the Western world should blame Unions for their woes, not Free Trade.
Unions existed because of corpo abuses and things like Upton Sinclairs 'The Jungle' exposing the Gilded Age for what it was.

Unions became a problem in some places, but 'free trade' hurt them far more than union dues ever did.

"Free Trade" is also a lie of the Reaganite era, one that is rightful being removed in place of protecting strategic industries, home grown industries, the US worker, not sending money to our enemies (the CCP is an enemy), and the lies about quality from foreign labor.
Yes, because at that point they're just Communists and should stop pretending to be conservatives. Leave that class warfare rhetoric to the losers of the Cold War.
So you are one of those who think Rooseveltian policies are just 'commie' policies, and that anything but 'Friedman approved free trade' is 'becoming Stalin'.

Yeah, you seem like one of those 'line goes up' conservatives, which a lot of Reaganites are and which Friedman was as well.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
So long as we’re trying to emulate Theodore and not Franklin Roosevelt.
Both were good, both are admirable, and both are examples the GOP should look to more than Reagan.

The Reaganite worship by chunks of the GOP is one of it's biggest flaws, because Reagan's legacy doesn't impress moderates or independents the way Roosevelt's legacy does.
 

SoliFortissimi

Well-known member
It was called age of colonialism, not age of immigration you victim of leftist education.
The "anti immigrant voices of older days" had bows to fight against people with guns so they lost and were graciously given reservations to live on because the immigrants in question were kinda soft hearted, unlike the current third world.
...you realize I am talking about the 19th century waves of immigration, right? The Irishmen, the Germans, the Italians, the Jews etc etc?
ou think it's different in US?
Oh, that squatter guy? He's getting arrested.
Economic development is good. Number scams that technically are growth but not in a normal economic sense are not good.
And what does this mean? Do you want growth or do you not want growth?
China.
That's not conservatism, hate to break it to you bro, by that description you are a left-liberal internationalist, you are lying to yourself and other claiming to be a conservative, nevermind a real one.
....what are you conserving, then, if not the rights of the citizenry to liberty and property?

Not wanting free trade with countries that do not return the favor is having a brain, not communism. It's something actual communist countries do to our idiot leadership in fact.
There we agree. The rules must be reciprocal. China must be made to open up further.

ree Trade" is also a lie of the Reaganite era, one that is rightful being removed in place of protecting strategic industries, home grown industries, the US worker, not sending money to our enemies (the CCP is an enemy), and the lies about quality from foreign labor.
And that will have the effect of making the US weaker in the same way the Qing Dynasty was. It will deprive the consumer of cheap electronics, of cheap lower value goods, of workers to reap the crops, and of IT workers to run the services we have grown used to.

Unions existed because of corpo abuses and things like Upton Sinclairs 'The Jungle' exposing the Gilded Age for what it was.

Unions became a problem in some places, but 'free trade' hurt them far more than union dues ever did.
Unions existed for the same reason gangs did. The working classes realized that they can get money with violence, without actually doing the work to earn it.

And we all saw how that went. Remember the Winter of Discontent?

o you are one of those who think Rooseveltian policies are just 'commie' policies, and that anything but 'Friedman approved free trade' is 'becoming Stalin'.

Yeah, you seem like one of those 'line goes up' conservatives, which a lot of Reaganites are and which Friedman was as well.
Proudly so.
 

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