Is Yi Sun-sin Overrated?

[LordSunhawk]

This is going to be controversial but...

I would argue that, given the technological and tactical disparity between the Korean vessels, both the Geobukseon (turtle ships) and the 'standard' Panoksean type ships over the Japanese vessels, that any actually competent admiral would have had the same or very similar levels of success.

The Korean ships were far more heavily built, even the 'standard' Panoksean would be considered timberclads by later standards, carried far more, far heavier, and far superior cannons, were more agile, were infinitely better suited for the actual littoral environment that they were intended to operate in, and were especially well designed to no-sell the preferred Japanese naval tactic of closing and boarding.

Any competent admiral who simply kept his ships close in shore where the deeper draft Japanese vessels would be struggling, kept the range open in order to bombard with superior cannon, and forced the Japanese to struggle through a killing field before reaching his own ships would have had similar results. The fact that other Korean admirals signally failed to manage any of that is as much an indictment of their incompetence as a mark of Sun-sin's brilliance.

I am not saying that he isn't an admiral of a level with a Nelson or such, what I am saying is that he isn't some incredible super-admiral with kung-fu grip. To listen to the elegiacs about him, you'd think that he fought off the Japanese fleet while armed with a pen knife in a leaky canoe while they were sailing WW2 warships.

 

[Aaron Fox]

This is going to be controversial but...

I would argue that, given the technological and tactical disparity between the Korean vessels, both the Geobukseon (turtle ships) and the 'standard' Panoksean type ships over the Japanese vessels, that any actually competent admiral would have had the same or very similar levels of success.

The Korean ships were far more heavily built, even the 'standard' Panoksean would be considered timberclads by later standards, carried far more, far heavier, and far superior cannons, were more agile, were infinitely better suited for the actual littoral environment that they were intended to operate in, and were especially well designed to no-sell the preferred Japanese naval tactic of closing and boarding.

Any competent admiral who simply kept his ships close in shore where the deeper draft Japanese vessels would be struggling, kept the range open in order to bombard with superior cannon, and forced the Japanese to struggle through a killing field before reaching his own ships would have had similar results. The fact that other Korean admirals signally failed to manage any of that is as much an indictment of their incompetence as a mark of Sun-sin's brilliance.

I am not saying that he isn't an admiral of a level with a Nelson or such, what I am saying is that he isn't some incredible super-admiral with kung-fu grip. To listen to the elegiacs about him, you'd think that he fought off the Japanese fleet while armed with a pen knife in a leaky canoe while they were sailing WW2 warships.

The problem was, in actuality, there were no real competent officers within the Korean military at the time (at least not so thoroughly screwed over by the court). Back then, most of the positions were used to put children of nobles on the 'easy' track for advancement or officers that fell out of favor with the court. It also didn't help that said court had it for him because he was the sort of person that didn't go with how the court did things. When people say that the Korean government back then was rotten to the core, they meant it.

 

[Doomsought]

The problem was, in actuality, there were no real competent officers within the Korean military at the time (at least not so thoroughly screwed over by the court). Back then, most of the positions were used to put children of nobles on the 'easy' track for advancement or officers that fell out of favor with the court. It also didn't help that said court had it for him because he was the sort of person that didn't go with how the court did things. When people say that the Korean government back then was rotten to the core, they meant it.

This is the real point of why he is a genius. What naval tradition did exist at that time dictated an emphasis on boarding actions. He started with no competent officer, not even a proper naval tradition, and created a new one basically whole cloth. He was able to see and understand things that are only obvious in hindsight. He could adapt to the latest technological advances before, not after, they were put to the test. Even for nations with competent officers and a strong military Tradition, it usually takes months or years to adapt. Just look at world war one.

Admiral Yi was able to understand the wtrength and weakness of his units before fielding them to battle.

 

[LordSunhawk]

Which is why I rate him as a top-tier naval officer, but he isn't *god tier* like so many people seem to think he is.

Honestly, his very lack of knowledge of naval matters helped him, he came in with no preconceptions.

 

[Cherico]

The man had to fight the Japanese who had a naval tradition going back generations, had to create a naval tradition from starch had zero competent officers to start and had to fight one of the most corrupt and blatantantly stupid regiemes in Korean history all at the same time.

The man deserves his god tier title.

 

[Aaron Fox]

The man had to fight the Japanese who had a naval tradition going back generations, had to create a naval tradition from starch had zero competent officers to start and had to fight one of the most corrupt and blatantantly stupid regiemes in Korean history all at the same time.

The man deserves his god tier title.

It should be also noted that at this time one faction of the Korean government was driving the majority of the corruption. I remember in the Spacebattles Extra History thread that had the bits and bolts of what was happening. I remember something about two major factions within the court fighting for control of the court and one of them (the 'Northern'/'North Men', can't exactly remember but I know it pertained to the north in some way) was pretty bad. The Prime Minister -Yi's childhood friend- was one of those guys who had his sights farther than rising through the ranks and did actual governing.

It should be noted that most of not all of the tributary allies of China tended to be using the same Mandate of Heaven spiel, just not as grade A balls to the wall like China has.

 

[LordSunhawk]

The Japanese 'naval tradition' was exclusively based on closing in and boarding, little different from the Roman tradition of centuries earlier. Their ships were very lightly built, very fast, but not very agile, excellent sea-boats, but deep drafted and poor in the littorals.

What Yi Sun-Sin managed to do was to come in as a non-naval expert, look at his equipment, and realize the best way to use it. He has heavily built, very shallow draft, slow but agile ships with very heavy firepower. So he kept his ships clustered up, kept them in shallow water, used narrow channels and islands to channel the enemy forces to him, and thus won.

Again, this is high-grade ability, but not 'god tier', if the Japanese had had equivalent ships *he would have failed*.

I rate him no higher than a Nelson or Togo, but no lower either.

The Korean court was a total snake pit, though.

 

[Abhorsen]

Which is why I rate him as a top-tier naval officer, but he isn't *god tier* like so many people seem to think he is.

Honestly, his very lack of knowledge of naval matters helped him, he came in with no preconceptions.

That is god tier though. He invented naval doctrine that worked out of nothing. That's an act of creation, which is traditionally associated with gods.

Nelson, by contrast, was part of a naval tradition that he didn't have to invent, and Togo could crib off of the British.

 

[LordSunhawk]

That is god tier though. He invented naval doctrine that worked out of nothing. That's an act of creation, which is traditionally associated with gods.

Nelson, by contrast, was part of a naval tradition that he didn't have to invent, and Togo could crib off of the British.

Actually the existence of that Naval Tradition as it stood at the time of Nelson is why I rate him as high or higher, because Nelson had the brilliance to realize when he had to *break* tradition and do things differently even at the risk of being condemned to death for violating orders if his actions failed to work.

Togo had to apply tradition into a completely new paradigm of warfare, again showing brilliance.

Yi Sun-Sin was also brilliant in that he was able to use that rarest of attributes... common sense... and apply it to his tactics.

Either all three are god-tier, or none are, and I'd argue that none are. They simply are all highly capable men who did the right moves at the right time to secure their reputations for brilliance. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Of course Nelson also had the fortune of having a government that supported the RN and himself and didn't throw away the virtually entire RN and send him against the entire French navy with a half dozen ships of the line. Moreover Nelson also had the luxury of not having his home nation being invaded albeit the threat of such an invasion existed