Jordan Peterson or something whatever thread.

[FriedCFour]

You can synthesize anything together, but replacing class struggle with intersectionality theory and historical materialism with a rejection of historical narratives leaves you with something as far away from marxism and postmodernism as it would be from liberalism or hegel.

Even if the end desired state is the same and hopes to achieve a marxist society?

 

[Realm]

Even if the end desired state is the same and hopes to achieve a marxist society?

The Marxist end goal is inherently tied to class struggle and historical materialism.

There are more than 1 left traditions, my friend

 

[FriedCFour]

The Marxist end goal is inherently tied to class struggle and historical materialism.

So you could only have public ownership pf the means of production if they believe in historical materialism? Intersectionality is class struggle btw, it just tacks on a bunch of other things as a part of class.

 

[Comrade Clod]

Yes, but you dont think its possible to synthesize two ideas together? For example, rejecting dialectical materialism in favor of subjectivism, but holding that the marxist history is generally correct and is the proper way to conduct society once intersectionaliy has also replaced the bourgeious/Proletariat dichotomy? Is it really an impossibilty to mesh two things together?

Some ideas can be glued together.

Marxism an Post-Modernism are not those two. Post-Modernism fundamentally disagrees with the narrative of history and further argues that most of history is subjective.

Marxist descended ideologies usually follow the idea that there is a grand historical narrative with the end point being a communist/socialist society.

So when I say Post-Modern Neo-Marxism is a stupid concept, thats why.

 

[FriedCFour]

Marxism an Post-Modernism are not those two. Post-Modernism fundamentally disagrees with the narrative of history and further argues that most of history is subjective.

And marxism is godless while catholicism isnt. Marxism seeks to dissolve hierarchical society, Catholicism is heavily hierarchical. Liberation theology isnt a figment of my imagination though.

 

[Realm]

So you could only have public ownership pf the means of production if they believe in historical materialism? Intersectionality is class struggle btw, it just tacks on a bunch of other things as a part of class.

Public ownership of the means is a Marxist concept, but the anarchists have something similar, the situationists have their own deal, there are way more left wingers than libs and marxists my dude.

And class struggle is fundamental. You dont staple on other dimensions, class is the anchor, with other forms of discrimination tertiary.

 

[FriedCFour]

Public ownership of the means is a Marxist concept, but the anarchists have something similar, the situationists have their own deal, there are way more left wingers than libs and marxists my dude.

And class struggle is fundamental. You dont staple on other dimensions, class is the anchor, with other forms of discrimination tertiary.

You have a very orthodox view of what is and isnt marxist, as Anarchism and situationism are absolutely spawned from marxism.

 

[Realm]

You have a very orthodox view of what is and isnt marxist, as Anarchism and situationism are absolutely spawned from marxism.

Pfft, anarchism did not spawn from Marxism, marx was contemporary and rival to prominent anarchists within the first international, so you're obviously full of shit their.

 

[Global Warming]

It was compelled speach screeching, which was objectively false as a concern

Really, a false concern? Peterson lives in Canada, where just recently a "Human Rights Tribunal" forced a man to pay $55,000 to a transgender activist for calling this individual a biological male, which resulted in hurt feelings.

Source:

On March 27, the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal ordered Saskatchewan Christian activist William Whatcott to pay prominent Vancouver trans activist (and the 2017 B.C. NDP candidate for Vancouver-False Creek) Morgane Oger $55,000.

The award—$35,000 “as compensation for injury to her dignity, feelings, and self-respect” and $20,000 in punitive costs for “improper conduct during the course of the complaint”—came after the tribunal determined that Whatcott violated Section 7 (Discriminatory Publication) of the B.C. Human Rights Code. That section, generally, prohibits publication of statements that discriminate against a person or class of persons or exposes those people to hatred or contempt.

Whatcott distributed 1,500 flyers in Oger’s riding during her election campaign. The flyers, according to the tribunal decision, described Oger as “a man who ‘lived as a transvestite for eight years, cut off his penis, and injected himself with female hormones, in an effort to delude himself and everyone around him into thinking he was a female’ ”.

 

[FriedCFour]

Pfft, anarchism did not spawn from Marxism, marx was contemporary and rival to prominent anarchists within the first international, so you're obviously full of shit their.

Literally the only thing they quarrel and kill each other over is whether or not communism should be implemented in stages. Other than that it is identical. Marxism is a perfectly accurate thing to call it.

 

[Comrade Clod]

Still strawmanning. It's an example, not the proof.



This is an outright lie.



Well, when we have video proof of many, many, many professors pushing communist propaganda, you don't need a perfect label to point at the problem we have evidence of existing.

Its a terrible example seperated by 400 million years of evolution.

See Realms position of the topic they know more than me.

Ah yes, communist propaganda. Boy oh boy I wish that was a thing at university. Except it isn't, and your definition of communist propaganda is probably broad.

And marxism is godless while catholicism isnt. Marxism seeks to dissolve hierarchical society, Catholicism is heavily hierarchical. Liberation theology isnt a figment of my imagination though.

Something of a false comparrison.

The RC is a faith, socialism is an ideological standpoint and distinctly different from communism. LT takes a heavy influence from the portions of socialist thought which are applicable to the RC concept of charity and fusing it into a theological understanding of how the Church should work in the modern world.

Now this isn't quite applicable with the whole PMNM, because a: There isn't a "neo-marxism" to begin with, and Marxism fundamentally is based around the narrative of history, if it leaves that behind it stops being marxism. Post-Modernism by contrast often goes to a point of making clear that there are no historical objective truths and that everything is subjective, which doesn't fit very well into any sort of marxist viewpoint as it has no common ground (unlike charity and equality with RC and Socialism)

You have a very orthodox view of what is and isnt marxist, as Anarchism and situationism are absolutely spawned from marxism.

Anarchism is actually something of its own movement which later became influenced by marxism. Anarchists have been a thing since the 1860's whilst marxism didn't gain much traction till the 70's/

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Okay, and if the manner you, as an employer refused to call someone by the termonology they desired was not determined as discrimination by the judge, you'd be correct. If the evidence is there to show you did not hire someone based on them being trans, that is when the law hits you. It does not legislate speech, merely the discriminatory act, of which speech can indicate evidence of your possible discrimination.

But, then this can be easily used to falsely or wrongly claim discrimination when there was in fact none. And it can then be used as a weapon against people for not using those preferred pronouns. So, then, people might be afraid not to use these preferred pronouns and that this becomes a defacto legislation of speech, because it can be used against them. I am trying to find the correct terminology for what I think this causes, but cobra effect and perverse incentive are not at all the terms.

Anyways, I am thinking of backing off, since you already are debating two or more people and don't want to inadvertently tilt the debate against you (even if I am in favour of that side) by sapping your cognitive resources. And I am pretty sure that this we are going to spin our wheels over this, so opening up both of us disengaging if you agree it won't be productive or will be wasteful.

 

[FriedCFour]

Its a terrible example seperated by 400 million years of evolution.

See Realms position of the topic they know more than me.

Ah yes, communist propaganda. Boy oh boy I wish that was a thing at university. Except it isn't, and your definition of communist propaganda is probably broad.



Something of a false comparrison.

The RC is a faith, socialism is an ideological standpoint and distinctly different from communism. LT takes a heavy influence from the portions of socialist thought which are applicable to the RC concept of charity and fusing it into a theological understanding of how the Church should work in the modern world.

Now this isn't quite applicable with the whole PMNM, because a: There isn't a "neo-marxism" to begin with, and Marxism fundamentally is based around the narrative of history, if it leaves that behind it stops being marxism. Post-Modernism by contrast often goes to a point of making clear that there are no historical objective truths and that everything is subjective, which doesn't fit very well into any sort of marxist viewpoint as it has no common ground (unlike charity and equality with RC and Socialism)



Anarchism is actually something of its own movement which later became influenced by marxism. Anarchists have been a thing since the 1860's whilst marxism didn't gain much traction till the 70's/

Clearly we have different ideas of what marxism is. I use it in the same way as liberalism to describe these ideologies just how you can have neo liberalism and in most of the west you have multiple different Liberal parties.

 

[Realm]

Really, a false concern? Peterson lives in Canada, where just recently a "Human Rights Tribunal" forced a man to pay $55,000 to a transgender activist for calling this individual a biological male, which resulted in hurt feelings.

Source:

I live in canada too, and I'm pretty sure if I post filters about how his mother had sexual Congress with a frog to birth him as a bastard, he'd get kinda mad over that. Talking shit gets you in trouble, don't ya know.

Also, not the law in question.

Literally the only thing they quarrel and kill each other over is whether or not communism should be implemented in stages. Other than that it is identical. Marxism is a perfectly accurate thing to call it.

Sure, just like how conservative and Nazi's agree about their policy modernism, they just have different ideas on how to react to it.

Oh wait no, there are other differences despite ideological opponents correlating the two?

Perhaps?

But, then this can be easily used to falsely or wrongly claim discrimination when there was in fact none. And it can then be used as a weapon against people for not using those preferred pronouns. So, then, people might be afraid not to use these preferred pronouns and that this becomes a defacto legislation of speech, because it can be used against them. I am trying to find the correct terminology for what I think this causes, but cobra effect and perverse incentive are not at all the terms.

Discrimination law in canada has been rarely applied and the standard of evidence is high. This literally just added one group to a list of ten groups. To say this is compelled speech now due to the one addition without basis is hysterical and probably just culture war shilling for clicks.

 

[Comrade Clod]

Clearly we have different ideas of what marxism is. I use it in the same way as liberalism to describe these ideologies just how you can have neo liberalism and in most of the west you have multiple different Liberal parties.

Maybe but even if you boil it down to some really basic "marxism" you still end up in a situation where one puts forth a historical narrative when the other is fundamentally opposed to the concept.

 

[FriedCFour]

Sure, just like how conservative and Nazi's agree about their policy modernism, they just have different ideas on how to react to it.

Oh wait no, there are other differences despite ideological opponents correlating the two?

Perhaps?

Enlighten me, what else is different with anarchism and marxism.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Discrimination law in canada has been rarely applied and the standard of evidence is high. This literally just added one group to a list of ten groups. To say this is compelled speech now due to the one addition without basis is hysterical and probably just culture war shilling for clicks.

You forgot about the HRCs, I am pretty sure the Yaniv case is good evidence in how bad things can get.

*A person literally lost their business over this. A minority mother.

 

[Global Warming]

I live in canada too, and I'm pretty sure if I post filters about how his mother had sexual Congress with a frog to birth him as a bastard, he'd get kinda mad over that. Talking shit gets you in trouble, don't ya know.

Also, not the law in question.

As far as I know, it would actually be perfectly legal for you to do that. The accusation is so ridiculous that it wouldn't even qualify as defamation, as no reasonable person would believe it to be true.

Regarding your second point, it's an extremely similar law in BC that also protects gender identity and expression. If you want some Ontario-specific discussion though, check out the Ontario Human Rights Commission's website:

Is it a violation of the Code to not address people by their choice of pronoun?

The law recognizes that everyone has the right to self-identify their gender and that “misgendering” is a form of discrimination.


As one human rights tribunal said: “Gender …may be the most significant factor in a person’s identity. It is intensely personal. In many respects how we look at ourselves and define who we are starts with our gender.”[1] The Tribunal found misgendering to be discriminatory in a case involving police, in part because the police used male pronouns despite the complainant’s self-identification as a trans woman.


Refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity, or purposely misgendering, will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education. The law is otherwise unsettled as to whether someone can insist on any one gender-neutral pronoun in particular.


Gender-neutral pronouns may not be well known. Some people may not know how to determine what pronoun to use. Others may feel uncomfortable using gender-neutral pronouns. Generally, when in doubt, ask a person how they wish to be addressed. Use “they” if you don’t know which pronoun is preferred.[2] Simply referring to the person by their chosen name is always a respectful approach.

So yes, if you misgender someone you can be taken to kangaroo court, forced to pay tens of thousands for a lawyer (while the complainant is represented for free) and potentially fined a ridiculous amount of money.

 

[Realm]

Enlighten me, what else is different with anarchism and marxism.

The role of (The, A) State in revolution (I see what I did there), the importance of economics compared to hierarchy as such, organizing principles, goals on achieving power in the real world stemming from that initial division between state or no state...

There's ground for working together for sure, but becoming cross purposes is extremely easy, just like my earlier example of disparate, but similar political movements.

So yes, if you misgender someone you can be taken to kangaroo court, forced to pay tens of thousands for a lawyer (while the complainant is represented for free) and potentially fined a ridiculous amount of money.

By misgender someone you mean printing thousands of fliers directly disparaging their identity, right?

It's Canada boyo, we fine people for denying the holocaust and being racist shit heads, deal with it lol

 

[FriedCFour]

By misgender someone you mean printing thousands of fliers directly disparaging their identity, right?

It's Canada boyo, we fine people for denying the holocaust and being racist shit heads, deal with it lol

Or if you refuse to wax the balls of a pedophile vexatious litigant.