Joseph McCarthy Did Nothing Wrong (Or Did He Do Plenty Wrong?)

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik

So the mainstream historical consensus currently is that Senator Joseph McCarthy was a primary advocate of the 'Red Scare' of the 1950's. There has been some recent revisionism in regards to his legacy, mostly based on the fact that in fact there was very real threat of Communist influence, espionage and other RED shenanigans.

But then again, you can cast too wide a net and irrational fearmongering can hurt ones cause more then help it.

What is y'all assessments of Senator Joe McCarthy?
 

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
Yeah he did something wrong. He stopped.

Yeah, he should've kept going after he started proceedings against the Army because they drafted a friend's son. I'm sure another year of hunting in closets for Communists would've done wonders for the cause of anti-Communism in America.

Remember this is a guy who literally pulled a number from thin air to try and rile up attention for himself because he was becoming a political nobody. The fact that Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White were actually Soviet agents of influence doesn't justify his behavior.

He should have gotten non-STEM banned or not funded by the government tax money

So screw philosophy and law, eh? Literature too, nope, don't need that. Who needs stinking culture when we have science and tech? Books that aren't about cosines or structural engineering or chemistry are for deviants. We should probably burn them all.

You wouldn't happen to have any books like that, would you?

Actually, let me walk that back. You're saying that because "OMG the people I don't like have a lot of influence in non-STEM education, it's too bad that witch hunter didn't crush them by denying them funding!" Which goes to show how ignorant and silly you are.
 

ReeeFallin

The Yankee Candle
He should have gotten non-STEM banned or not funded by the government tax money
Literally all forms of entertainment are non-stem. I suppose you'd like it if the world was all business and technology and no recreation or inspiration?

You think we'd have smart phones if someone didn't look at the communicators and tricorders in star trek and think "I can make that real" ?

The world isn't just one thing, and it certainly shouldn't be. We wouldn't be anything without our our imagination and our creativity.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
While I find Carl's post silly cause of the stuff you guys @ReeeFallin and @Big Steve mentioned

I can sorta understand what he is trying to go for with his idea. Fundamentally, every inane insanity we are dealing with right now comes from the non-stem fields and fueled by government money.
 

Laskar

Would you kindly?
Founder
While I find Carl's post silly cause of the stuff you guys @ReeeFallin and @Big Steve mentioned

I can sorta understand what he is trying to go for with his idea. Fundamentally, every inane insanity we are dealing with right now comes from the non-stem fields and fueled by government money.
Several problems with that.

You could criticize a man for not going further only if he was pursuing an objective in good faith. Joe McCarthy was not prosecuting communists in good faith. He glommoned onto the cause of fighting communism for the sake of attention whoring and going after his enemies, which puts him on the same level as sleezebag politicians who conflate "racism" with "not sharing my policy preferences."

Secondly, the trouble with the arts and sciences didn't start until long after McCarthy died of alcoholism. Complaining that McCarthy didn't go after the arts and sciences is like complaining that Pope John Paul II didn't excommunicate Pope Francis.
 
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LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
Several problems with that.

You could criticize a man for not going further only if he was pursuing an objective in good faith. Joe McCarthy was not prosecuting communists in good faith. He was the cause of fighting communism for the sake of attention whoring and going after his enemies, which puts him on the same level as sleezebag politicians who conflate "racism" with "not sharing my policy preferences."
Sure. I wasn't saying that I agree with Carl. Just I understand why he wants non-STEM gutted.

Secondly, the trouble with the arts and sciences didn't start until long after McCarthy died of alcoholism. Complaining that McCarthy didn't go after the arts and sciences is like complaining that Pope John Paul II didn't excommunicate Pope Francis.
This shit has been going on for far longer then after McCarthy. Its just it took root in the US after he died and spread from there. Non-Stem now are calling for reduction in test standards and bitching about how mathematics is colonialist and evil.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
The fact that there are witches is no excuse to declare people you don't like witches and burning them at stake, while actual witches carry on regardless.

It just means you have to switch from some dumb superstitious inquisition or local priest who knows nothing about fighting supernatural forces

To hiring actual professional monster hunters with bestiaries and info on how actual ones behave and if they’re actually within the area

Like that young adult series i stopped reading years ago and accumulated, The Last Apprentice/Wardstone Chronicles

Priests there try praying boggarts and other monsters away and do dumb witch hunts and have the gall to kill the Spooks, the guys who actually deal with them
 

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
"The fact that there were actual witches doesnt mean this was anything other than a bogus witch hunt!"

I know you're saying that as some smarmy attempt to attack what I said, but that statement isn't false. Just because there were actual "witches" around doesn't mean McCarthy's hunt for them was legitimate. What part of "he pulled numbers out of thin air" did you not get?

He wasn't anywhere near the actual, legitimate investigations into Communist spying in the US government. He was making stuff up and using those legitimate investigations to make his own rumor-mongering and outright lying seem more plausible.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
So screw philosophy and law, eh? Literature too, nope, don't need that. Who needs stinking culture when we have science and tech? Books that aren't about cosines or structural engineering or chemistry are for deviants. We should probably burn them all.

You wouldn't happen to have any books like that, would you?

Actually, let me walk that back. You're saying that because "OMG the people I don't like have a lot of influence in non-STEM education, it's too bad that witch hunter didn't crush them by denying them funding!" Which goes to show how ignorant and silly you are.
"Either we let the commies charge us a hundred thousand dollars a man to teach us about shakespeare, or WE MIGHT AS WELL BURN THE LIBRARIES DOWN!"

Mother of false dichotomies.
 

ReeeFallin

The Yankee Candle
McCarthy underestimated the threat of communism in the USA. It was so bad that they were able to stop his efforts against them, demonize him, and make his name synonymous with baseless witch hunts. In a just world, “McCarthyism” should mean having the bravery to stand up against evil when few else will.
If he didn’t want to be associated with baseless self serving witch hunts, he’d have done well not to engage in them. He demonized himself through his evil actions. You reap what you sow.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
You reap what you sow.

Other people end up being the ones who have to eat that horrible or lacking produce

It doesn’t help that people’s memories and knowledge on history is limited, people will only really look to McCarthy for actual looking into for communists and decide that there are no communist infiltrators or barely any to begin with

Even when the commies are here en masse, just going under different names and downplaying their actions
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
OK, I've got two main statements on this.

1. "McCarthyism" as a word really shouldn't be associated with him. Most of the things people consider "McCarthyism" were not actions taken by McCarthy, but rather by the House Committee on Un-American Activities, and they were done either BEFORE or AFTER McCarthy and had absolutely nothing to do with him. Thus, in many respects, the term is, in fact, unfair to McCarthy.

2. McCarthy was right about the level of Soviet infiltration into the US Government, esp. the State Department, but he had the wrong targets due to his hubris and desire for personal grandeur. It doesn't matter if you're right to shoot if you hit the wrong target. As such, his ranting actually HARMED the efforts to shake out communists from the Federal Government.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
OK, I've got two main statements on this.


2. McCarthy was right about the level of Soviet infiltration into the US Government, esp. the State Department, but he had the wrong targets due to his hubris and desire for personal grandeur. It doesn't matter if you're right to shoot if you hit the wrong target. As such, his ranting actually HARMED the efforts to shake out communists from the Federal Government.

Exactly this. To be quite honest, McCarthy discredited anti-communism, which was a disaster.
 

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