Alternate History Long Term Effects on Human Civilization, If Humans Matured&Aged like Elder Scrolls’ Elves/Mer

[CarlManvers2019]

To anyone who doesn’t know about Elder Scrolls’ Elves, like most fiction Elves live much longer than humans. Like an average of 4-5 centuries, with the Altmer or particularly magically gifted Elves able to live a millenia or more.

They mature into adulthood for around the same 20-30 years, then sort of slow down afterwards. They have fertility rates that make it sorta hard to conceive and maybe 3-4 is the maximum per Elven woman

That said, leaving out problems with fertility, I want to know how you guys think human society would be affected with a lifespan of 4-5 centuries, but with the same fertility rate as ordinary humans have

And take note, that 4-5 centuries can sorta be lessened by things like disease, starvation, malnutrition, overwork, lack of exercise etc.

So there would still be much reason to develop technologies based around medicine and producing more food and proper physical care

Would people stop having as many children as older poorer times when they had many children due to not knowing which would survive the coming years? Take note, possibilities of war come alongside those other problems I mentioned

Mer

Mer (also called Elvenkind or just Elves, or rarely Elfs) as a collective term encompasses beings of the elven races in Tamriel. They are described as "long-lived, culturally conservative humanoids" whose societies feature stable social and cultural institutions. Multiple races of mer exist in...

elderscrolls.fandom.com

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

You know this case where a doctor figured out a connection between dissections and the deaths of women who died of sickness after giving birth?

I imagine things will be like that, except worse.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

You know this case where a doctor figured out a connection between dissections and the deaths of women who died of sickness after giving birth?

I imagine things will be like that, except worse.

Long lifespans cut short to give birth to new ones

I think it’s due to today’s increasing medical knowledge that happens much less

Also, hygiene

 

[Sol Zagato]

At premodern death rates, dying at or slightly below their 'young adult' rate, most people die before 100 anyways. I've done the math.

What would Human society be like if women lived two, five or ten times longer than men?

If you thought catfights today are bad...

forums.spacebattles.com

That whole thread is pretty good on this subject.

Fertility would only slightly decrease, mainly because too many babies can cripple a woman in the long run, unless she has good nutrition and genetics.

The biggest difference is old people are awesome and run everything, meaning society as a whole is forced into their long horizon mindset.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

At premodern death rates, dying at or slightly below their 'young adult' rate, most people die before 100 anyways. I've done the math.

What would Human society be like if women lived two, five or ten times longer than men?

If you thought catfights today are bad...

forums.spacebattles.com

That whole thread is pretty good on this subject.

Fertility would only slightly decrease, mainly because too many babies can cripple a woman in the long run, unless she has good nutrition and genetics.

The biggest difference is old people are awesome and run everything, meaning society as a whole is forced into their long horizon mindset.

Yeah, but those “old people” wouldn’t be biologically degrading and going senile for a LONG time

Would there really be problems with getting new ideas explored and accepted?

I mean I think it’s been said that adults get set in their ways and remain stagnant, old people even more so, like at the age of 200 and with the body of a thirty year old, they for whatever the reason can’t use an iPhone because they keep on asking how to use buttons

 

[Terthna]

Yeah, but those “old people” wouldn’t be biologically degrading and going senile for a LONG time

Would there really be problems with getting new ideas explored and accepted?

I mean I think it’s been said that adults get set in their ways and remain stagnant, old people even more so, like at the age of 200 and with the body of a thirty year old, they for whatever the reason can’t use an iPhone because they keep on asking how to use buttons

Stagnancy and getting set in your ways has nothing to do with age; rather, it mostly has to do with your outlook on life. I honestly think the concept that older people are more susceptible to that mentality, is a fiction created by young "progressive" activists to undermine the legitimacy of authority figures, who were usually older than them, without actually having to debate against their arguments. Because if anything? I'd argue the average member of the "progressive" movement is far more set in their ways, than any elderly person confused by an iPhone.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Stagnancy and getting set in your ways has nothing to do with age; rather, it mostly has to do with your outlook on life. I honestly think the concept that older people are more susceptible to that mentality, is a fiction created by young "progressive" activists to undermine the legitimacy of authority figures, who were usually older than them, without actually having to debate against their arguments. Because if anything? I'd argue the average member of the "progressive" movement is far more set in their ways, than any elderly person confused by an iPhone.

Still, best to be able to see when they have their points or not, as well as know what experiences they had and why/how it formed in them.

You could dismiss them as being a bunch of old douchebag republicans, only to find out that their actual views are more balanced and reasonable than first thought

Hell, they may even have had run ins with hippies before or were hippies once too

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That said, I think older western progressives have either amplified their views or feel validated

Or in some cases like Maher, feel that everybody else went crazy or crazier

Hollywood was already leaning Left since the Cold War....yeah, I somehow think that even a younger Mark Hamil time traveling to the future would do #GoForceYourself to Trump’s grandkids too

 

[Terthna]

Still, best to be able to see when they have their points or not, as well as know what experiences they had and why/how it formed in them.

You could dismiss them as being a bunch of old douchebag republicans, only to find out that their actual views are more balanced and reasonable than first thought

Hell, they may even have had run ins with hippies before or were hippies once too

Exactly. I really don't see how there could be a downside to people being able the measure their lives in centuries; it might even give them the time they need to truly begin to understand one another.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Exactly. I really don't see how there could be a downside to people being able the measure their lives in centuries; it might even give them the time they need to truly begin to understand one another.

How about this one downside that Isaac Asimov made in his Spacers

An increase in being a bunch of heartless douchebags who also follow planned parenting to extreme levels and barely even make any children or have much attachment to them

God, his Robots/Galactic Empire/Foundation series really romanticizes having only 100 year on average lifespans

Apparently taking much longer to die of old age and feel its effects as well as not needing to do manual labor makes you an asshole

 

[Sol Zagato]

Yeah, but those “old people” wouldn’t be biologically degrading and going senile for a LONG time

Would there really be problems with getting new ideas explored and accepted?

I mean I think it’s been said that adults get set in their ways and remain stagnant, old people even more so, like at the age of 200 and with the body of a thirty year old, they for whatever the reason can’t use an iPhone because they keep on asking how to use buttons

If they have an extended lifespan, it doesn't make much sense if they have an extended senescence too. It would generally lead to them never ever reaching their max lifespan.

Animals with very long lives don't have extended senescence. At worst, they have a long period of declining vigor.

If you don't give people a way to combat wear and tear, they'll all be non-ambulatory cripples long before age 150. Extended lifespan directly implies that there's at least some kind of joint cartilage regeneration.

As far as being set in their ways:
Most of human history didn't move that fast. Some 200 year old set in their ways is also really, really good at what they do. Further, extended lifespan implies extended brain plasticity/neurogenesis/neurofibrillary cleaning/lysosomal improvement, or they'll be vegetables way before the limit. That also means they'll keep learning longer.

The way I see it, they keep getting better at what they practice, they keep getting stronger if they bother, their immune system gets a larger antibody library every year. There's also the darwinian factor- far from every yahoo will see 300. It will be patient, smart, unadventurous types more often.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The way I see it, they keep getting better at what they practice, they keep getting stronger if they bother, their immune system gets a larger antibody library every year. There's also the darwinian factor- far from every yahoo will see 300. It will be patient, smart, unadventurous types more often.

I guess there will be lots of people still researching better medicine and nutrition and stuff to improve the body even then

Still, would it make people “too patient” or “too slow” to change stuff?

Or be like the Elves from Goblin Slayer who decide to take maybe at least 300 years to have one child and would take LONG debates on what to do even as there are problems that can or will move pretty fast

 

[Sol Zagato]

I guess there will be lots of people still researching better medicine and nutrition and stuff to improve the body even then

Still, would it make people “too patient” or “too slow” to change stuff?

Or be like the Elves from Goblin Slayer who decide to take maybe at least 300 years to have one child and would take LONG debates on what to do even as there are problems that can or will move pretty fast

They'll be patient as hell. But you don't make it to 300-500, in a prehistoric environment, without also being able to turn on a dime and shank some people. Young people mad that you old folks are holding them back? Well, not a problem- just through darwinian selection, you made it to this age by not being too tyrannical, by understanding other peoples' wants and needs, and being able to sniff out that somebody's thinking of killing you before they themselves realize it.

If you were too patient, you're just lucky or you already died. All the surrounding tribes are also run by badass elder councils like your tribe is. They're not giving an inch, and they'll seize advantage where it's found.

I characterize paleolithic society spiced up by long-lived people as profoundly conservative and much more knowledgable. OTL hunter gatherers have an understanding of ecological change on the level of folklore. These elders personally understand climate change and ecological collapse because they've lived it. They've seen boom and bust cycles of prey animals, they know years without summer or rain. They know the things that will make someone age "prematurely". They know the signs that neighbors are planning to attack in a few decades.

So I guess they sound a little elf-like. Very patient, experts in ecology and folk medicine, kind and likeable most of the time, then suddenly ruthless and vicious for reasons young people find hard to understand.


Here's what I wrote for a similar thread on Alternatehistory.

The extended lives should have a big impact on evolution over a 200ky span. Slow life strategies (living for hundreds of years with low risks and fewer children per year) is going to have huge impact. The people who live a long time (and keep reinjecting their genes) are not going to have an average profile. They're going to be sociable, paranoid, inquisitive, very risk-avoidant, unadventurous, intelligent, tempermentally even, long-term planners, diligent, and have habits that coincidentally avoid disease (cleanliness, safe(r) or reduced sex, avoids crowds, takes food thoroughly cooked, tribal nomadism can also help here).

These same individuals are going to dominate society, because they'll have the strongest social networks and the most polished skills.

Imagine a thousand-year-old Paleolithic hunter.

He's been practicing just that long at his job, and he had enough talent to survive that long at his job. He's probably had to do every job in the tribe but childbirth- he can do everything, do many things well, and is fracking uncanny at hunting and understanding people. He can probably smell your murderous ideation before you yourself realize it, then either kill you (with a magnificent display of skill, or have his flunkies do it) or socially adjust you back into line with his very well honed interpersonal abilities. He could take more wives, but he won't, because his sexual appitites are low-ish, and he avoids making the young men envious and the old women jealous. (Either could be deadly)

He's personally survived war, climate change, forced migration due to both the above, having to survive in unfamiliar environments, and having to adapt to disaster or die.

Within his own tribe, he's at least a minor deity. If he's the eldest in the region, he may have some renown. Strangers may pay him tribute and worship him. This may become significant enough that he can 'graduate' from his day job into being a full time ruler, but only where population density is high enough.

Summary:A respected superpredator with a sixth sense for danger, likeable and useful, an endless fountain of lore and good at damn near everything. Solidly the center of his tribe if no other old people.

Imagine a thousand-year-old paleolithic gatherer.

Unlike the hunter, she's definitely graduated from her 'day job', unless times are lean. Like with the hunter, everyone young person in the tribe is descended from her. But since this is the Paleolithic, descent is usually traced matrilineally, so this is very, very important. She's not mother, or grandmother, or ancestor, she's Mother, their goddess, and the soul of the tribe. Since she's survived this long, she knows how to use their adoration- it's possible they're suicidally loyal. If she's the oldest in a region, she might be the reason the tribes are united.

She's been in charge for awhile, so she's seen it all, and had to solve everyone's problems. Being a woman, she's had much less experience or aptitude with solving problems by stabbing them, and more by talking to them or getting other people to stab them, or planning ahead. Not that she hasn't had to personally shank a bitch, but hey...

She's survived being young, and she's survived unpredictable lean times and disasters, so she's probably not the type to just sit back and manipulate people- otherwise her tribe would have killed her or the tribe itself dispersed long ago. She may keep useful physical skills honed just because she likes them (and then they turn out to be useful), or she may keep them because she consciously knows lean times are coming, or she may keep them because they help her understand the people she's ruling and make better decisions.

Like the hunter, she's seen all kinds of disasters and had to overcome them. She's much more likely than the hunter to be running a personal game of civilization in her head, because of her clearer leadership position. The tribe's survival is her survival, and she has at least an intuitive understanding of all aspects of its continuity, and maybe an explicit understanding as well.

In higher-density areas, it's possible she has a thing for young men specifically groomed to be her consorts, because she's not dead from STDs yet.

Summary: Godlike social skills, the tribe may at some times resemble an extension of her own body. Extremely dedicated long-term planner and problem-solver, probably good at some skills like medicine, or great at a personal favorite, and at least very familiar with most of the skills practiced in the tribe. Has a great deal of general knowledge. Better at fighting than she looks.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-humans-were-biologically-immortal.455537/page-2#post-17873844

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Sol Zagato
What about technological and socioeconomic progress? Would they hold it back in favor of just sticking to the old trusted ways without even experimenting?

Why mine for iron when they can use bronze? Why use bronze when you can just use stone? Easier and faster to make and more familiar

 

[Sol Zagato]

@Sol Zagato
What about technological and socioeconomic progress? Would they hold it back in favor of just sticking to the old trusted ways without even experimenting?

Why mine for iron when they can use bronze? Why use bronze when you can just use stone? Easier and faster to make and more familiar

There's no 'socio' in the socioeconomic progress. The old folks better like it or else.

Meaning change comes in patterns. Nobody can be king of the world with paleolithic technology, but they can assemble large coalitions when it looks like there's a problem.

Faster change comes from isolated badlands or zones of chronic instability. Where tribes have lost their elders or don't have them because the death rate is high. Or where elders don't have to worry about what the old guys over the hill think about their activities.

Slower change comes from innovations shared freely so that they don't upset the political equilibrium.

Imagine you see the first farmers. You've watched their population explode over the last century and a half, and eat up miles and miles of new territory. You can see where this is going. You're sure farming is environmentally unsustainable. You see their lifestyle and health. You you sure as hell don't want to farm OR be pushed off your territory, and don't want your descendants to either. So you get together half the wild men in the fertile crescent and try to exterminate them. (Maybe the farmers win, maybe they don't)

After you reach the neolithic on forth, things would work differently, but you still would have a profoundly conservative ruling strata who remember everything.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

After you reach the neolithic on forth, things would work differently, but you still would have a profoundly conservative ruling strata who remember everything.

I guess there's a bit of a risk, but still more survival compared to the previous

They may take up farming or using guys doing farming if they find that, they found a way to make it semi-sustainable somehow

Say, if they ever manage to get "more secure" what are the chances of them, in Robert E. Howard's idea becoming "Decadent"?

REH applies it even to early Iron Aged Civilizations with poverty on the basis that sure they manage to get some surplus, but they tend to ruin their own lives through political corruption, making lots of laws they don't even follow and complicate stuff, corruption, hypocrisy, upper classes being sorta obsessed with luxuries and aesthetics rather than skipping to what needs to be done and no loyalty to one's own "tribe" to the point they'd sell their own people off or leave them to die when they could still help them even with some alms

What happens if they encounter more advanced people? Like these guys they met learned to mine and use iron due to being semi-stuck in an area with little bronze and found its stronger