Modern Naval Submarine Discussion

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Here's the thing, the future is looking like we're going to have railguns, lasers (likely some form of electron pulse laser), and hypersonic missiles out the literal ass. The old battlewagons aren't going to be useful anymore in that sort of environment, and thus useless.

Then there is the fact that H-Cell submarines are fuck quiet, given that a Euro-sub (either using H-Cell or D-E, forgot which) literally walked up to a Nimitz in a naval exercise.

The most likely scenario is probably going to be a shift to a doctrine similar to the soviets: surface vessels are only useful near land, submarines are the capital ships.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Here's the thing, the future is looking like we're going to have railguns, lasers (likely some form of electron pulse laser), and hypersonic missiles out the literal ass. The old battlewagons aren't going to be useful anymore in that sort of environment, and thus useless.

Then there is the fact that H-Cell submarines are fuck quiet, given that a Euro-sub (either using H-Cell or D-E, forgot which) literally walked up to a Nimitz in a naval exercise.

The most likely scenario is probably going to be a shift to a doctrine similar to the soviets: surface vessels are only useful near land, submarines are the capital ships.
I will like to point out that subs can only get close to Surface ships when they are not active pinging. When they are it does not matter how quiet your sub is it will be quickly detected. We use to pick up our own subs this way all the time during exercises.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
I will like to point out that subs can only get close to Surface ships when they are not active pinging. When they are it does not matter how quiet your sub is it will be quickly detected. We use to pick up our own subs this way all the time during exercises.
That... isn't exactly true because of one thing: the props. Those are going to make noise no matter what, even when you're doing silent running. Silent running simply makes the area you can 'hear' vastly shorter. That Euro-sub was so quiet that it literally snuck up right next to a Nimitz without no one noticing. At least that is what the article told us.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Exercise parameters required pure passive sonar, I believe. For one thing, makes it harder for 3rd parties to gain frequency data on the active pingers.
This and you have to know that something is amiss if you want to use active sonar unless your charts are crap and you don't know the area. Last I've heard, active sonar isn't 100% agreeable to the wildlife.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
That... isn't exactly true because of one thing: the props. Those are going to make noise no matter what, even when you're doing silent running. Silent running simply makes the area you can 'hear' vastly shorter. That Euro-sub was so quiet that it literally snuck up right next to a Nimitz without no one noticing. At least that is what the article told us.
Never believe articles. They like to fluff things for views. One thing you have to remember about Carriers they not only have Destroyers and Cruisers protecting them. They have Attack Subs as well. And I find it dubious they would get pass the Attack Subs.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Never believe articles. They like to fluff things for views. One thing you have to remember about Carriers they not only have Destroyers and Cruisers protecting them. They have Attack Subs as well. And I find it dubious they would get pass the Attack Subs.

A lot of exercises exist to test a particular set of capabilities and so don't include the full group, or part of it is hobbled by the exercise rules. Reporters and boosters of certain technologies then repeat the results while ignoring this context to claim it supports some particular narrative they want to push. It's indeed all garbage.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
Then there is the fact that H-Cell submarines are fuck quiet, given that a Euro-sub (either using H-Cell or D-E, forgot which) literally walked up to a Nimitz in a naval exercise.

Considering that no "Eurosub" has ever been built, they would doubtless be quiet. In reality, the HDW Eurosubs were abandoned and replaced by other designs back in (IIRC) 2008 when the proposal met with a complete lack of interest. The proposal has been replaced by the Klasse 214, Klasse 216 and Klasse 218 submarines.

I think you may have the German Klasse 212 in mind. They have never 'walked up to a Nimitz in exercises" for a very simple reason. Their maximum speed is around 20 knots at which point they are very noisy with cavitation off the propeller and flow noise off the hull. If they are going to do a creepy-creepy, their maximum speed is between 4 to 8 knots depending on how good the opposition sonar is. The US Navy has the best sonar outfits in the world (by a big margin) so the Klasse 212 has a creep speed of closer to 4 knots. A Nimitz has a maximum speed of 32 knots (before anybody asks, stories that the CVNS could do 40 or 50 knots are fictitious) and cruises at around 25 -28. To intercept a CVN needs a nuclear submarine.

Also, the CVNs are, as pointed out, not alone. Usually, they have a CG and four or five DDGs as a surface screen plus one or two SSNs below water and at least one, possibly up to four ASW aircraft, up top. All of those work as a team and are very good at killing conventional submarines.

So why do conventional submarines make these claims? Or how? Answer is very easy. Exercises are set up to demonstrate capabilities and for the crews to handle situations. For that reason, the rules are tightly set to provide certain scenarios. This includes running the carriers on know, set routes. A conventional submarine is essentially a mobile minefield. It goes out to a specific point on that know course, sits and waits for the carrier to come to it. Since the CVNS operationally do NOT stick to known predetermined routes, that exercise tactic is precluded in reality. Also the skippers of the subs tend to wait outside port before the exercise begins to get a few good scope-shots they can brag about.

There are two kinds of air-independent propulsion systems; fuel cells that generate a trickle charge that can be used to charge batteries reasonably silently and Sterling diesels that can be run using recycled exhaust gas. A lot of utter nonsense is spoken about these systems but the truth is quite simple. Operationally, the prime way of killing a diesel-electric is called hold-down. Since running away from an ASW force generates a lot of noise and is certain to get an ASW torpedo up the ass (yes, it really does go up the ass) the way conventional submarines beat an ASW hunt is to go silent, preferably sit on the bottom and wait until they get bored. The time-limiting factor is when the batteries run flat which is a finite time and not long. Then the submarine has to surface or the crew dies. They die anyway when they surface, get pounded by gunfire and sink with the crew being machine-gunned as they try and abandon ship. What AIP does is provide a means by which the batteries can be recharged underwater to lengthen the time the submarine can survive hold-down. That's the theory anyway.

Reality is a bit different. In the late 1980s and 1990s, the world's navies built a lot of conventional submarines primarily to replace very old construction dating from WW2 and the 1950s. So many, they absorbed the market. If they couldn't be replaced early, the submarine building yards would all go bankrupt. Most did. The survivors came up with AIP to convince navies that they submarines they had just bought were useless and had to be replaced - again. AIP is not a means to support operational submarines, it is a means to support submarine building yards.

The most likely scenario is probably going to be a shift to a doctrine similar to the soviets: surface vessels are only useful near land, submarines are the capital ships.
No it isn't. That's not going to happen for a multiple clutch of operational reasons and it was never Soviet Doctrine.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member

Gotland class is more likely, USN leased one for OPFOR training
Well, he was talking about Eurosub which is a long-defunct project that never saw a single order. Klasse 212 was the nearest equivalent I could think of. You're right about the USN leasing a Gotland. The general impression was that it was a nice mobile minefield but pretty much useless for USN requirements. Too slow by far to keep up with the CVNs, too short-legged to have the strategic mobility the USN must have. It did pretty well in exercises designed to play up to the mobile minefield concept but in free-form exercises, it really didn't show up too well.

The other problem was that it costs a lot of money to operate both diesel-electric and nuclear submarines; they require different supply trains, different training facilities, different technical support etc (Brazil will find that out when they finally get their SSN and I have no doubts the Indians are doing so right now). Running both nukes and conventionals is a rich man's game. Most such nations end up choosing between the two and end up going nuclear. Also, one doesn't really save much money by buying a conventional submarine. Assuming the two submarines are identically-equipped, the only cost difference is that of the reactor machinery, a relatively small proportion of the total. The very cheap costs we see quoted for SSKs are (a) very dated, sometimes going back to the 1970s, and (b) for a very crude level of equipment (eg sonars that equate to a tin can on a piece of string - hyperbole there of course).

A really top-class SSK (like the Japanese Soryu or the Singaporean Klasse 218SG) will cost somewhere around $850 million while an equivalent nuclear boat will cost around $1.2 billion) so the cost balance is around 3:2. Two nuclear boats will wipe the floor (seabed?) with three SSKs. So the USN rejected proposals to buy SSKs
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
I think the biggest stumbling block for many nations is the aversion of the public to everything nuclear. Also if national defense doctrine is limited to the defense of the littoral, then there is not much incenitive for going nuclear.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
I think the biggest stumbling block for many nations is the aversion of the public to everything nuclear. Also if national defense doctrine is limited to the defense of the littoral, then there is not much incenitive for going nuclear.
This was particularly the case in Australia. The original specifications for the Collins Class Replacement Program (CCRP) demanded performance levels in terms of range, speed and sophistication that were directly those of a nuclear submarine. Only that option was ruled out explicitly for the reason you suggested. The CCRP is now running into trouble because it really is pushing the technology edge. It currently looks like they're actually going to end up paying more per hull than the US Navy pays for its SSN-774s.

<deleted content>
To be honest I doubt it. I've never heard the term Euro-Sub used in the submarine industry except in connection with the HDW proposal. It's not as if there is a European submarine industry or submarine consortium; TKMS and Naval Group (what used to be the French DCNS) are bitter rivals and their design philosophies are quite different. The Swedes as in Saab-Kockums (who designed the Gotland class) are at daggers drawn with TKMS and will certainly not co-cooperate with them. There is certainly nothing that could be described as a definable "submarine from Europe" and AFAIK there has never been a proposal to build a common European submarine. It's a bit like trying to claim the French, German and British armies in World War One were a Euro-Army.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
You are forgetting that most of us do not posses the same level of knowledge as you do. It's perfectly normal for someone who only read an article on conventional submarine superiority ten years ago and can only remember that some European sub got to USN carrier on the excercise, not knowing that there are multiple sub makers in the Europe.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
You are forgetting that most of us do not posses the same level of knowledge as you do. It's perfectly normal for someone who only read an article on conventional submarine superiority ten years ago and can only remember that some European sub got to USN carrier on the excercise, not knowing that there are multiple sub makers in the Europe.
Fair comment; my apologies. Virtually everything I do in my life is hooked to military equipment somehow.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
@Francis Urquhart Are there any circumstances in which maintaining SSKs supplemental to SSNs make sense? For example, having tightly constrained channels to approach the populated coastlines of a country, so that the SSKs are to sit in those channels and prevent attacks on the coast? Or would even such special circumstances not be worthwhile?
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
@Francis Urquhart Are there any circumstances in which maintaining SSKs supplemental to SSNs make sense? For example, having tightly constrained channels to approach the populated coastlines of a country, so that the SSKs are to sit in those channels and prevent attacks on the coast? Or would even such special circumstances not be worthwhile?
Heavens to Murgatroyd yes!!! Running a combined SSN and SSK fleet is actually a very good idea; the two types are complementary and each brings something to the table that the other lacks. In an ideal world, that's what we would do - and in fairness the USN actually did that right up to (IIRC) 1989. At that point the USN had to decide whether to build a new class of diesel-electric submarines or go all-nuclear. That wasn't an easy decision to make but what finally killed the diesel-electrics in the USN was budgets It was simply too expensive to build a new class of SSKs. No matter how advantageous the mix might be, the money simply wasn't and isn't there. Other navies followed the same path. The French dumped their SSK fleet in favor of all-SSNs and they Royal Navy did the same. Same dilemma, same outcome.

In each of those cases the driving factor is that SSNs are inherently an offensive tool. They are one of the weapons of choice when it comes to removing other people's grid squares. An SSBN can remove a whole load of grid squares all at once but a missile-shooting SSN is pretty good at such thing itself. SSNs can go a long way, fast and in near-complete secrecy. They project power in ways that an SSK can't begin to match.

An SSK is primarily a defensive tool. It has a slow underwater speed - AIP submarines are no faster than normal diesel-electric boats. What the AIP boats have is the ability to cut themselves off from the surface and lurk in ambush. As we touched on earlier, the best way to look at an SSK is that it is a mobile minefield. Correctly positioned and handled, an SSK makes a good defensive instrument aimed at deterring hostile fleets from coming inshore. So, if a Navy is primarily aimed at coastal and territorial water (EEZ) defense, then the SSK is probably the more suitable. But if one wants to go somewhere quickly, meet some ill-intentioned people and break their shiny toys, the SSN is the better choice.

To put this into context, a non-AIP diesel-electric submarine has a speed of advance of around 4 - 6 knots. That's walking pace - they are that slow. An AIP diesel-electric submarine has a speed of advance of around 6 - 8 knots the difference being due to the AIP system keeping the batteries charged. A nuclear submarine has a speed of advance of around 24 knots and some are quite a bit faster. Now, I do know that you'll read articles that say this or that type of diesel-electric/AIP submarine has a speed of 20 knots or 22 knots. What they don't tell you is running the sub that fast will drain the batteries in 45 minutes to an hour.

So an ideal mix is to have some SSKs and some SSNs and some SSBNs in case one wants to put an entire country on the list of absent friends. Running SSNs and SSBNs together isn't a problem, essentially they are very similar. The first SSBNs were actually converted SSNs. However, if one is going to have SSBNs, the SSNs are almost an inevitable choice. The incremental cost of adding SSKs is great and if budgets are tight, they are the ones that go. It's like we talked about on the Iowas and the A10s. No matter how useful a concept is, if it can't be fitted into the budget then it can't be done. In the end it always comes down to the same thing. What will we drop from the budget to buy that particular capability.

At the moment, India, China and Russia are the three countries that can still operate an SSK/SSN/SSBN fleet. I suspect India and China will also drop their SSK fleets as their power projection capability grows in importance. Brazil is threatening to build an SSN but I hae me doots if it will ever actually happen. Certainly not in the next ten years. Russia? The signs are they have already made that decision and they too will slowly drop out of the mixed-fleet business. Given the problems with they are having with their nuclear boats, they may actually go SSK.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
@Francis Urquhart thank you for that response. So here's the next question: From time to time I hear about SSKs that were to have small, pumpless, extremely quiet reactors for recharging batteries. Was this an attempt to square the circle in shipbuilding-logistics terms as much as it was to improve SSK capability? And did it have any viability?
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
@Francis Urquhart thank you for that response. So here's the next question: From time to time I hear about SSKs that were to have small, pumpless, extremely quiet reactors for recharging batteries. Was this an attempt to square the circle in shipbuilding-logistics terms as much as it was to improve SSK capability? And did it have any viability?
This is actually real. The problem is that nuclear reactors don't scale in cost or power output very well. Back in the 1960s, we built what was supposed to be a nuclear-powered equivalent to an SSK, i.e. a small, inexpensive hunter-killer that had a scaled down nuclear powerplant. For a brief while she was known as an SSKN but the submarine ended up so like an SSN that's how she was classed. We only built one, the loss in capability wasn't justified by the largely ephemeral cost savings.

Now, since then, one proposal has been to use the RTGs (radioisotope thermoelectric generators) designed for satellites to provide a charging system for an SSK's batteries. RTGs have been used extensively for unmaintained situations that need a relatively low level of output over a long period that cannot be attained by batteries, fuel cells or generators. The first main problem with RTGs is safety which is why they tend to be assigned to unscrewed vehicles. The second main problem is disposal since once pulled from service RTGs require long-term safe storage. Finally, RTGs are expensive. All these things combine to make RTGs an unacceptable source of power for submarines. The long-term operational duration of RTGs doesn't really buy us much since the SSK has to come into port for other reasons at frequent intervals and might as well stock up with fuel for its AIP system then.

There are significant engineering problems with installing RTGs on submarines. These things get seriously hot (they can glow red-hot under some circumstances) and need cooling systems that are unacceptable in a crewed submarine. That also added to the cost of the system and made the cost balance even less favorable. The final issue was that because costs of nuclear reactors do not scale with size and output, for the cost of putting a small reactor in to charge batteries, we might as well put a large one in and drop the rest of the power train.

There are alternative reactor designs coming that might change the cost balance but at that point, some discrete silence is in order. :cool:.

Picking up from the previous post, and submarine operations in shallow water. Operationally we divide oceans into three groups. Blue, Green and Brown. Blue water is oceanic and out there, warships are relatively safe. It's very hard to find them and they are well-placed to avoid and/or destroy attacks. This is where the SSNs roam and where they are at their most capable. Green water is continental shelf waters, shallow and obstructed with bottom debris that makes life very hard. Not impossible though; Ark Royal's 1972 East Coast Rampage was a perfect example of how even a large capital ship close inshore can evade detection while creating havoc. Green water is the realm of the SSK. Finally brown water (so called because of what cities tend to pump into it. There's an old joke that if one is swimming in brown water in the Persian Gulf, one never knows whether the thing nuzzling your leg is a sea-snake or a turd. Or which is the most terrifying) Anyway, brown water is almost impossible for major warships, or minor ones come to that, to operate in. It is the realm of the small coastal submarine.

Another significant thing is that coastal submarines may be cheap and simple but, like sea-snakes, they can have a very nasty bite. The South Korean corvette Cheonan was sunk by one such submarine, a North Korean Yono class boat. This is a copy of a Chinese coastal submarine which was a copy of the Russian M-IV class which was a copy of the German Klasse IID which was a repeat of the WW1 UB design. That's right, the Yono is a copy of a design over 100 years old. The key is, it is old and very simple but (unlike its predecessors) it is armed with lethal, fire-and-forget homing torpedoes. In brown water, that is a deadly combination.

That's why the idea of surface ships taking cover in coastal waters is unrealistic. It's too dangerous. Basically, the further out to sea the ships are, the safer they are.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
That is unless you are the defending navy, supported by air force, ground based missile batteries and defensive minefields. That was the doctrine of Yugoslav navy, area denial with strikes of opportunity, using the geography to their advanage.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
This is actually real. The problem is that nuclear reactors don't scale in cost or power output very well. Back in the 1960s, we built what was supposed to be a nuclear-powered equivalent to an SSK, i.e. a small, inexpensive hunter-killer that had a scaled down nuclear powerplant. For a brief while she was known as an SSKN but the submarine ended up so like an SSN that's how she was classed. We only built one, the loss in capability wasn't justified by the largely ephemeral cost savings.

Now, since then, one proposal has been to use the RTGs (radioisotope thermoelectric generators) designed for satellites to provide a charging system for an SSK's batteries. RTGs have been used extensively for unmaintained situations that need a relatively low level of output over a long period that cannot be attained by batteries, fuel cells or generators. The first main problem with RTGs is safety which is why they tend to be assigned to unscrewed vehicles. The second main problem is disposal since once pulled from service RTGs require long-term safe storage. Finally, RTGs are expensive. All these things combine to make RTGs an unacceptable source of power for submarines. The long-term operational duration of RTGs doesn't really buy us much since the SSK has to come into port for other reasons at frequent intervals and might as well stock up with fuel for its AIP system then.

There are significant engineering problems with installing RTGs on submarines. These things get seriously hot (they can glow red-hot under some circumstances) and need cooling systems that are unacceptable in a crewed submarine. That also added to the cost of the system and made the cost balance even less favorable. The final issue was that because costs of nuclear reactors do not scale with size and output, for the cost of putting a small reactor in to charge batteries, we might as well put a large one in and drop the rest of the power train.

There are alternative reactor designs coming that might change the cost balance but at that point, some discrete silence is in order. :cool:.

Picking up from the previous post, and submarine operations in shallow water. Operationally we divide oceans into three groups. Blue, Green and Brown. Blue water is oceanic and out there, warships are relatively safe. It's very hard to find them and they are well-placed to avoid and/or destroy attacks. This is where the SSNs roam and where they are at their most capable. Green water is continental shelf waters, shallow and obstructed with bottom debris that makes life very hard. Not impossible though; Ark Royal's 1972 East Coast Rampage was a perfect example of how even a large capital ship close inshore can evade detection while creating havoc. Green water is the realm of the SSK. Finally brown water (so called because of what cities tend to pump into it. There's an old joke that if one is swimming in brown water in the Persian Gulf, one never knows whether the thing nuzzling your leg is a sea-snake or a turd. Or which is the most terrifying) Anyway, brown water is almost impossible for major warships, or minor ones come to that, to operate in. It is the realm of the small coastal submarine.

Another significant thing is that coastal submarines may be cheap and simple but, like sea-snakes, they can have a very nasty bite. The South Korean corvette Cheonan was sunk by one such submarine, a North Korean Yono class boat. This is a copy of a Chinese coastal submarine which was a copy of the Russian M-IV class which was a copy of the German Klasse IID which was a repeat of the WW1 UB design. That's right, the Yono is a copy of a design over 100 years old. The key is, it is old and very simple but (unlike its predecessors) it is armed with lethal, fire-and-forget homing torpedoes. In brown water, that is a deadly combination.

That's why the idea of surface ships taking cover in coastal waters is unrealistic. It's too dangerous. Basically, the further out to sea the ships are, the safer they are.
Now this may seem like a dumb question, but has anyone ever looked at trying to recharge the batteries on a sub using human-powered means i.e. stationary bikes with a generator attached?

I mean it wouldn't put out a lot of power, and I guess maybe there could be noise issues. But it seems like the sort of thing that would be simple and easy to fit into an existing SSK design.
 

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