Alternate History Napoleonic Europe Reacts To The World Wars

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Despite his march across the continent ultimately ending in defeat, Napoleon Bonaparte left behind a legacy as one of Modernity's great conquerors and statesmen, with the wars that became his namesake having profound consequences of their own. Increasingly centralized states and the spirit of unity they engendered fueled the rise of modern nationalism, which even today, remains a source of constant back-and-forth. Small armies became monstrous militaries that demanded universal dedication on the part of the citizenry to all-encompassing war efforts against not just rival monarchs, but rival peoples, as well. With the defeat of France and decline of its Spanish and Portuguese competitors, the British Empire became global hegemon and enforced a century-long period of Pax Britannica. Little did people know, however, that—as momentous as all the events and trends taking shape around them were—they were only living through the prelude to an even greater orgy of bloodshed and radicalism to come in the following century.

Skippy, intrigued by the cross-century trends he sees and curious as to what they’d say if they did know what was to come, has other plans. Hand-waving the importance of choosing an exact date—just to see what people at various points throughout the Napoleonic Wars think and creating as many parallel timelines as are needed for that—Skippy sends a hodgepodge of uptimer documents, recordings, and the miniaturized infrastructure needed to power them (i.e. hand-cranked chargers for portable TV sets) that tells the people of Europe all they need to know about the World Wars. Moreover, since it’s also helpful to learn what built up to them in the hundred years between the Congress of Vienna and the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Skippy will also send back material that addresses these issues and the developments that preceded and/or underpinned them (such as the Second Industrial Revolution and unification of Germany, for example).

Ignoring how the technology itself would leave a lasting impression on its own, how would Napoleonic Europe react to the World Wars that’d have followed, long after the current generation has died out and a new one has taken the reins? Personally, I suppose that—in addition to their unprecedented scale—they wouldn't take kindly to how they precipitated the decline and fall of the European empires. Nor how Germany, Japan, and, to an extent, Stalinist Russia were all more menacing than Napoleon ever was. Whereas they might see Soviet communism as a nasty parallel to Revolutionary France (with Joe Stalin himself staring as Robespierre Reincarnated!), I doubt they’d have a real point of comparison with Nazi Germany, with Hitler’s Final Solution requiring prejudice and mass-slaughter on a scale never planned or so meticulously premeditated before—a scale that, if ever truly realized, would prove the Third Reich far worse than even the most blood-soaked leftist agitators ever were. Not to mention how recently independent New England colonies across the Atlantic needed only a century and a half to become a global superpower, helping turn the tide of World War Two through sheer industrial might before rebuilding the post-war world in its own image. Ditto with the Manhattan Project and atomic bombings ushering in the Nuclear Age and helping lay the groundwork for the Cold War to follow.

Those are my own thoughts on the scenario, anyway. There will certainly be those with little interest in anything but the big picture and blatantly obvious, “shock and awe” aspects of two truly global conflicts and all the destruction they unleashed, but for the curious and historically inclined who’d dig much deeper, there’s much more to discuss. It’d undoubtedly inform post-war political decisions and subsequent approaches to warfare, since leaders of all stripes would want to avert the violent excesses of the twentieth century and jockey for every possible edge over potential competitors. Especially those "damnable Yankees" across the Atlantic, suborning Europe to their whims and commanding wealth and power the British Empire could only dream of, if left unchecked.

Thank you in advance,
Zyobot
 

ATP

Well-known member
Depend,to whom and when you send it.
But,all by prussian would made sure of 4 things:

1.Made prussia as small as possible,even made partition like with Poland.
2.Crack every revolutonary movements,masons too.
3.Invade North America nad destroy USA.
4.Let Japan and China sleep.

Prussians would,of course try unite germany - but with entire Europe against them,they would lost.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Neat OP concept.

Thanks!

Prussians would,of course try unite germany - but with entire Europe against them,they would lost.

Yeah, I thought steps to prevent German unification would be in the cards. Not only was Hitler’s agenda more monstrous than Napoleon’s ever was, but from a geostrategic standpoint, a united Germany provided serious competition to everyone else at the start of the twentieth century. Moreover, even after two World Wars and its empire falling apart, Germany has still bounced back as the continent’s industrial powerhouse and lies at the center of EU politics (both figuratively and literally). While Napoleon had grandiose dreams of a united Europe, I doubt the EU was quite what he was envisioning.
 

SpaceOrbis

Well-known member
American politics will become quite divided over whether or not to attempt to "fulfill the prophecy" and receive decades of world domination at the cost of selling out all your societal values.

I don't really see the people of the 1800s US caring about a group of people that they viewed as savages. Knowing what happens in 1914-1918 and 1936-1945 they may just say fuck it and take more land.

I'm sure a fair few may want a second go at the Canadians for burning down the White House so we may try to take the great white north.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
Everyone would try to avert the nightmarish visions they just received. The people of the 19th century would be aghast looking at the world they have been shown. Nearly every single country on the European mainland (and even many Asian countries such as Russia, China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc) will be destroyed and never restored to what they once were, humiliated beyond imagination, and those that don't face ruination by bombs (Britain and America) will be defaced by hideous cultural change.

A big problem is that by the time of the 19th century, many of the wheels that led to our present state of affairs are already in motion. The American and French Revolutions have undermined the idea of monarchy in the public consciousness, and ideas like communism are starting to get rolling. You have the industrial revolution happening which will lead to globalized and mobile labor economies like we have today which results in the destruction of families and community. The Catholic Church is losing power and being supplanted by the state as the end-all-be-all. Thanks to advances in medicine, farming, and supply chain infrastructure, etc, the population of the earth is skyrocketing which means that there are more people per square mile, which means more competition for resources, which means more conflict, and conflicts will be more destructive (whereas before the industrial revolution, you had people spread out over more land, so they didn't come into contact with each other that often and didn't have that many reasons to fight and there were fewer people involved, hence relatively less bloodshed).

Armed with the knowledge of the future, the people of the past would try to avert or mitigate the events they had just saw, but I don't think they'll entirely avert it. Hopefully the damage will have been lessened or delayed considerably.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I don't really see the people of the 1800s US caring about a group of people that they viewed as savages. Knowing what happens in 1914-1918 and 1936-1945 they may just say fuck it and take more land.

I'm sure a fair few may want a second go at the Canadians for burning down the White House so we may try to take the great white north.

Even if the US doesn’t care, though, the empires will heavily disagree. Having those “American upstarts” grow into the most powerful nation in history bodes badly for their place in the sun.

Another question I have is what they’d think of nukes? For one, being overawed at how sealing God’s wrath into a tin can has become possible is obvious. Especially with those “damnable Yankees” and “backwards Russkies” amassing the largest nuclear stockpiles ever, whereas the likes of Britain and France play second fiddle there.
 

SpaceOrbis

Well-known member
Even if the US doesn’t care, though, the empires will heavily disagree. Having those “American upstarts” grow into the most powerful nation in history bodes badly for their place in the sun.

Another question I have is what they’d think of nukes? For one, being overawed at how sealing God’s wrath into a tin can has become possible is obvious. Especially with those “damnable Yankees” and “backwards Russkies” amassing the largest nuclear stockpiles ever, whereas the likes of Britain and France play second fiddle there.

1-Of course, the powerful nations of the time will do whatever they can to ensure they never fall but I don't think we would give a shit about what the old world thinks of us moving westwards. That land is now open season and we are going to be trying to take it by hook or by crook.

2-Nukes are the sort of superweapon that would mean make them stop and think. If such weapons exist in 100 years powerful enough to remove whole cities is war even worthwhile? The first nukes were something along the lines of 12-15 kt. Both bombs removed a fair bit of the two cities we dropped them on. No nation wants to have its cities removed.

The way I see it they see the power such weapons hold. Understand that fighting in massive lines will soon be worthless and maybe stop fighting as much. A fools hope I know but a man can dream.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
The thing to remember is that past Europe has to deal with its own problems.

England is going to look at the future and say "well, Germany is somewhat problematic, but it's better to have to deal with Germany generations in the future than to fail to deal with France now. It doesn't matter what the Prussians are destined to do. They'll help us deal with Napoleon now." Maybe they'll try to get a naval arms limitation treaty system in place to forestall the Dreadnought race when technology allows them, but I expect they'll experiment with seeing how Germany behaves when France has been partitioned before they try to permanently occupy Germany to prevent unification.

Everyone not France or allied to France is going to have go through the same mental gymnastics to justify staying allied against France. It's not even that hard. The rise of Nazism was clearly caused by the Verseilles Treaty and WWI was clearly caused by the Franco-Russian entente backing Germany into a corner Because France is the great evil. Maybe they'd think differently if the Bourbon restoration stuck, but it didn't. The First French Republic is the pinnacle of contemporary evil in their eyes so why should they have any sympathy for the Third and Fourth French Republics? There's not going to be any sympathy for Belgium either since as far as they're concerned it's not a real state.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
American politics will become quite divided over whether or not to attempt to "fulfill the prophecy" and receive decades of world domination at the cost of selling out all your societal values.
Manifest Destiny, you know? It might just egg them on that much more. Either way, I think the Americans' focus would be primarily taken up by the fact that their various compromises failed to prevent the civil war. Maybe having the prophecy of loss—of the war and more importantly slavery—shoved in the South's face would compel them to accept slavery's containment, and the North would decline to push for more given the graphically illustrated consequences. Then again, maybe the South secedes early and the two go separate ways. But the second option wouldn't happen if they are getting invaded by some kind of pan-European alliance to get the New World back under the thumb of the Old.

Speaking of which, it'd be interesting to see how relations between Latin America and their colonial masters proceed in the knowledge of the imminent (or ongoing) revolutions and their consequences. Maybe Spain and Portugal would have the wisdom to try for a more home-rule type of arrangement to keep at least some of their authority, and maybe the people of those places would accept that offer rather than roll the dice on avoiding the centuries of unstable, corrupt regimes.

And on the topic of home rule, Ireland is going to be the subject of some fun conversations.

Italy immediately explodes. All the fun of the Germanies and none of the fear that they'll overrun the continent if unchecked.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Manifest Destiny, you know? It might just egg them on that much more. Either way, I think the Americans' focus would be primarily taken up by the fact that their various compromises failed to prevent the civil war. Maybe having the prophecy of loss—of the war and more importantly slavery—shoved in the South's face would compel them to accept slavery's containment, and the North would decline to push for more given the graphically illustrated consequences. Then again, maybe the South secedes early and the two go separate ways. But the second option wouldn't happen if they are getting invaded by some kind of pan-European alliance to get the New World back under the thumb of the Old.

Speaking of which, it'd be interesting to see how relations between Latin America and their colonial masters proceed in the knowledge of the imminent (or ongoing) revolutions and their consequences. Maybe Spain and Portugal would have the wisdom to try for a more home-rule type of arrangement to keep at least some of their authority, and maybe the people of those places would accept that offer rather than roll the dice on avoiding the centuries of unstable, corrupt regimes.

And on the topic of home rule, Ireland is going to be the subject of some fun conversations.

Italy immediately explodes. All the fun of the Germanies and none of the fear that they'll overrun the continent if unchecked.

What about having the North push for slavery abolition with the 13 Amendment by including huge compensation to Southern slaveowners as a part of the package for this?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
American politics will become quite divided over whether or not to attempt to "fulfill the prophecy" and receive decades of world domination at the cost of selling out all your societal values.

Or they could try doing a more humane version of Manifest Destiny. How that would work in practice, well, I'm not sure.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
What about having the North push for slavery abolition with the 13 Amendment by including huge compensation to Southern slaveowners as a part of the package for this?
I doubt the North would be willing to pay for that. The abolitionists were more of an outspoken diehard minority. I believe most antislavery people were focused on keeping slavery out of the new territories (that generally didn't want slavery anyway) and pushing back against stuff like the Fugitive Slave Act forcing them to help recapture escaped slaves and the infamous Dred Scott case. It was the war that turned the question of slavery into all-or-nothing abolition. If abolition happened it might be more along the lines of, the adult slaves are still slaves for life, but the children are to be freed upon adulthood or the death of the parent or something. That lets the slaveholders not lose out on their capital.

But who knows, maybe the view of the future gives abolitionism a huge boost. Or maybe the little guys of the South are convinced to turn on the planter class.

On second thought, though, perhaps I am confusing the sensibilities of the South of 1810 with that of 1850. The proslavery position had hardened quite a lot over those decades. (I doubt the latter would have accepted any reasonable payoff if the price was abolition.) Perhaps an abolitionist solution could be on the table after all, if the people of the South don't like the looks of where they were headed.
 
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