raharris1973
Well-known member
From repeated discussions of medieval Russian history and 'no Mongol invasion' proposals I have heard a couple things from Russia mavens. #1 That even prior to the Mongol invasions, Kiev's days as the leader of the Rus Principalities were done, and their center of gravity was moving north toward Vladimir-Suzdal, the Duchy/Princedom from which the Moscow Grand Dukes and later Tsars rose. and #2 Invasions, weakening and destruction of southern and central Rus principalities did open up a vacuum which allowed the Lithuanian Grand Duchy to dominate a great many Rus cities and lands, and this domination of western Rus lands (Belarus, most of Ukraine, some of Russia) carried over to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
If the Mongols never coalesce into an all-conquering, or even major conquering Horde under Temujin or any similarly gifted leader, could their lack of invasion, ravaging, and tribute collection from the Rus lands from Genghis and Batu and Ogedei and continuing through the Golden Horde's preeminence, lasting roughly the 257 years from 1223-1480 CE, have opened up a Eurasian power vacuum that a Rus state, likely Vladimir-Suzdal, would have filled earlier, much like Muscovy did later on in OTL? Could the lack of devastation of western and southern Rus principalities by Mongol invaders have kept Lithuania from ballooning as big as it ever got across all Belarus and Ukraine? Might the Rus principalities in that area, due to cultural, religious and dynastic ties and affinities with a dynamically growing and strengthening Vladimir-Suzdal, have naturally fallen into the latter's political orbit in the late Medieval/Renaissance era, with perhaps only principalities on the western edge of the Rus lands, like Galich and Polotsk, under contested influences of powers to the west like Hungary, Poland, or Lithuania.
Here is a link to the Eurasian map of 1200 AD: Eurasia in 1200 - Full size | Gifex
We see to the south and east of the Rus states the Cumans or Kipchak Khaganate, a tough opponent ruling the steppe. And, absent the Mongols, they would seem the logical people to continue ruling the steppe and harassing the Rus frontiers. But would they have the skills, vitality, and demographic power, without the Mongol flows and warmaking techniques to completely to take the historic place of the Mongols and Golden Horde for 250 plus years in keeping the Russians on the back foot and stymieing any eastward advances by the Russian peoples? Or would they start decaying and become vulnerable to Rus inroads toward the Black Sea, Caspian or Urals as we approach 1300 or 1400 ?
If things go well for Vladimir-Suzdalian Russia, would it be unreasonable for a Russian state centered there to run from Moscow to Alaska by the year 1560 AD? Having reached Pacific shores through the forest belt in in the middle 1400s, breached the Urals barrier in the middle or late 1300s, and satellitized/incorporated the other Rus states outside of Vladimir-Suzdal by the mid-1400s?
Why or why not?
If established and reaching such an extent, what kind of future could such a massive Rurikid renaissance state have?
If the Mongols never coalesce into an all-conquering, or even major conquering Horde under Temujin or any similarly gifted leader, could their lack of invasion, ravaging, and tribute collection from the Rus lands from Genghis and Batu and Ogedei and continuing through the Golden Horde's preeminence, lasting roughly the 257 years from 1223-1480 CE, have opened up a Eurasian power vacuum that a Rus state, likely Vladimir-Suzdal, would have filled earlier, much like Muscovy did later on in OTL? Could the lack of devastation of western and southern Rus principalities by Mongol invaders have kept Lithuania from ballooning as big as it ever got across all Belarus and Ukraine? Might the Rus principalities in that area, due to cultural, religious and dynastic ties and affinities with a dynamically growing and strengthening Vladimir-Suzdal, have naturally fallen into the latter's political orbit in the late Medieval/Renaissance era, with perhaps only principalities on the western edge of the Rus lands, like Galich and Polotsk, under contested influences of powers to the west like Hungary, Poland, or Lithuania.
Here is a link to the Eurasian map of 1200 AD: Eurasia in 1200 - Full size | Gifex
We see to the south and east of the Rus states the Cumans or Kipchak Khaganate, a tough opponent ruling the steppe. And, absent the Mongols, they would seem the logical people to continue ruling the steppe and harassing the Rus frontiers. But would they have the skills, vitality, and demographic power, without the Mongol flows and warmaking techniques to completely to take the historic place of the Mongols and Golden Horde for 250 plus years in keeping the Russians on the back foot and stymieing any eastward advances by the Russian peoples? Or would they start decaying and become vulnerable to Rus inroads toward the Black Sea, Caspian or Urals as we approach 1300 or 1400 ?
If things go well for Vladimir-Suzdalian Russia, would it be unreasonable for a Russian state centered there to run from Moscow to Alaska by the year 1560 AD? Having reached Pacific shores through the forest belt in in the middle 1400s, breached the Urals barrier in the middle or late 1300s, and satellitized/incorporated the other Rus states outside of Vladimir-Suzdal by the mid-1400s?
Why or why not?
If established and reaching such an extent, what kind of future could such a massive Rurikid renaissance state have?
