Reasons for War in Premodern Societies

[Aldarion]

Reasons for War in Premodern Societies

Wars do not happen without reason, even if some reasons may seem stupid to modern readers. This is important, because objective of the war also determines the conduct of the war. War whose objectiv…

warfantasy.wordpress.com

Wars do not happen without reason, even if some reasons may seem stupid to modern readers. This is important, because objective of the war also determines the conduct of the war. War whose objective is completely conquering the enemy country will not be fought in the same way as a war whose sole objective is capturing slaves. No country, government or organization is evil simply to be evil – evil people are typically convinced they are doing good! – which means that a war has to have some purpose to achieve. Establishing believable reason for the conflict that drives the story can help in making both the world and the story more internally consistent and immersive.

 

[ATP]

Reasons for War in Premodern Societies

Wars do not happen without reason, even if some reasons may seem stupid to modern readers. This is important, because objective of the war also determines the conduct of the war. War whose objectiv…

warfantasy.wordpress.com

Wars do not happen without reason, even if some reasons may seem stupid to modern readers. This is important, because objective of the war also determines the conduct of the war. War whose objective is completely conquering the enemy country will not be fought in the same way as a war whose sole objective is capturing slaves. No country, government or organization is evil simply to be evil – evil people are typically convinced they are doing good! – which means that a war has to have some purpose to achieve. Establishing believable reason for the conflict that drives the story can help in making both the world and the story more internally consistent and immersive.

Well,according to Illiad war started,becouse gods provoke it - and they want lesser number of humans.
Which is silly,they could do that themselves.

 

[Aldarion]

Well,according to Illiad war started,becouse gods provoke it - and they want lesser number of humans.
Which is silly,they could do that themselves.

Wasn't it a question of honor in the Illiad? People forget that Paris not just ran off with Helen, but also stole Menelaus' treasury and most importantly broke the guest right.

That last crime alone would be quite sufficient to explain a war... even if in reality it actually was merely a robbery raid.

 

[ATP]

Wasn't it a question of honor in the Illiad? People forget that Paris not just ran off with Helen, but also stole Menelaus' treasury and most importantly broke the guest right.

That last crime alone would be quite sufficient to explain a war... even if in reality it actually was merely a robbery raid.

True - but it happened AFTER Hera gave to him somebody else waifu.Not becouse she cared,but becouse gods wonted war who kill people and lessen burden on Gaia.

 

[Aldarion]

True - but it happened AFTER Hera gave to him somebody else waifu.Not becouse she cared,but becouse gods wonted war who kill people and lessen burden on Gaia.

Uh, it wasn't Hera - it was that dumb love goddess. And it was a gift he chose from among the three gifts (by Hera, Athena and that third dumbgodess), so he has only himself to blame for that as well.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Most of it sounds like barbaric Greek propaganda to be honest. Effete Trojans stole your girl AND your treasury... Smh.

 

[PsihoKekec]

so he has only himself to blame for that as well.

He was fucked no matter his choice, any decision would bring down the vengeance of other two goddesses on him. Goddess of discord sure knew her trade.

 

[Aldarion]

He was fucked no matter his choice, any decision would bring down the vengeance of other two goddesses on him. Goddess of discord sure knew her trade.

True, but even so, he made the literally worst possible choice.

If you know you're going to have two goddesses after your head, why not chose one that might, maybe, be able to help? As in, anyone except Aphrodite?

 

[PsihoKekec]

He was a man, thinking like a man. Faced with three naked goddesses, there is no way any straight man could think with brain instead of dick.

 

[LordsFire]

He was a man, thinking like a man. Faced with three naked goddesses, there is no way any straight man could think with brain instead of dick.

Weak excuse-making. He was insufficiently stoic.

Of course, that doesn't mean it still wouldn't be a terrible choice even if you're thinking with the right head, but that's part of the point of a lot of greek tragedy.

The best solution I can come up with, and it's not an actually good solution, would be to say 'all of their beauty is beyond my ability to fully comprehend, I cannot judge,' and if they press for a decision anyways, literally cast lots for it, saying my judgement is so inadequate to the task it is literally no better than luck.

Then if you're lucky, the god/goddess of luck will interfere, and then the infighting will be left among the gods.

You're probably not that lucky.

 

[PsihoKekec]

The best solution I can come up with, and it's not an actually good solution, would be to say 'all of their beauty is beyond my ability to fully comprehend, I cannot judge,'

He was given the task by Zeus (in order to dodge the judge duty himself), trying to get out of it would result in smiting. He had three option and picked the one that his overwhelmed hormones told him to pick. It just happened to be the worst of three bad choices, but that was the fate that was laid out for him.

 

[ATP]

He was given the task by Zeus (in order to dodge the judge duty himself), trying to get out of it would result in smiting. He had three option and picked the one that his overwhelmed hormones told him to pick. It just happened to be the worst of three bad choices, but that was the fate that was laid out for him.

And,for Zeus it was pretext to start war which would kill people,becouse it was too much for Gaia.
As if Zeus could not kill them himself...

Uh, it wasn't Hera - it was that dumb love goddess. And it was a gift he chose from among the three gifts (by Hera, Athena and that third dumbgodess), so he has only himself to blame for that as well.

You are right,Hera offered gold,and Athena wisdom.
Considering that he was fucked no matter what he choose,Athena gift seems best.Maybe thanks to additional braincells he would survive...

 

[Skallagrim]

The best solution I can come up with, and it's not an actually good solution, would be to say 'all of their beauty is beyond my ability to fully comprehend, I cannot judge,' and if they press for a decision anyways, literally cast lots for it, saying my judgement is so inadequate to the task it is literally no better than luck.

The correct approach would be to do this by cutting the golden apple in three equal parts, and giving a part to each of the three goddesses-- while proclaiming that a mere mortal is unable to judge such matters.

This would probably work, since this kind of act can be used to show both decisive action and shrewd wisdom -- in this case, both -- and this is invariably rewarded in all ancient mythologies.

 

[LordsFire]

The correct approach would be to do this by cutting the golden apple in three equal parts, and giving a part to each of the three goddesses-- while proclaiming that a mere mortal is unable to judge such matters.

This would probably work, since this kind of act can be used to show both decisive action and shrewd wisdom -- in this case, both -- and this is invariably rewarded in all ancient mythologies.

You have outwitted me on this one, Skallagrim.

 

[PsihoKekec]

The correct approach would be to do this by cutting the golden apple in three equal parts, and giving a part to each of the three goddesses

Which would offend all three of them, for their vanity was beyond mortal comprehension. Worse, he would need god's help in cutting the apple, probably Hephastus, so he pisses off that god as well, for involving him in the affair of goddesses scorned.
This was the original no-win situation, there was no way without violence.

 

[Scottty]

I suggest that discussion of real-world ancient war should not be conflated with discussion of mythology.

But in practical terms: humans fought about the same things back then that they fight about now: resources.
Land, grazing rights, mineral deposits...
Even religious wars can be seen as fights over the allegiance of people to one creed or another. And the loyalty of people is itself a resource.

 

[Aldarion]

I suggest that discussion of real-world ancient war should not be conflated with discussion of mythology.

You cannot avoid discussing history without mythology, because mythology is history turned into a tale.

And the loyalty of people is itself a resource.

And that I think is something many fantasy writers forget, or at least ignore its implications.

 

[Zachowon]

All mythology is history but not all history is mythology