Rejectionist Alternate History Idea Novel

[TheRejectionist]

Good stuff. I think you've nailed Stassen's character - certainly he must have not only been idealistic, but a pretty stubborn guy too, what with him running for president 13 times IRL. I'll guess that the Puerto Rican nationalists didn't launch an attack on the Capitol in your timeline as they did historically, both since you didn't mention it and because it would've invited a much harsher response from Washington than the relatively conciliatory one Stassen advocated.

As far as the hard-line French leadership goes, my suggestion would be to look to the leaders of the 1958 and 1961 military coups. Although they may have been pretty brutal colonialists and counterinsurgency pioneers, the generals involved were aligned with Free France during WW2 and celebrated for it (Raoul Salan for example was the most decorated soldier in the French Army until he tried to overthrow De Gaulle IRL), so they should theoretically be a little less offensive to Stassen's and Eisenhower's sensibilities than straight up Vichy dudes would be. If they need a civilian puppet for legitimacy purposes, I would recommend looking up politicians with a pro-colonial record such as Georges Bidault.

Only other recommendation I can think of at this time is that the new French regime should probably be called something other than the 'French State', since that was literally the official name of Vichy France. 'French Nation', perhaps, or 'French National State' just to distinguish it a little from the old collaborator state? Maybe even 'French Social Republic', there's an association with the Republic of Salò (AKA the Italian Social Republic) to worry about but maybe that's an obscure enough topic for the anti-De Gaulle plotters to get away with it.

1. I reasoned that to save KMT China he had to do take troops somewhere. PR doesn't have a large force of US soldiers but if Ike's intention is to use all manpower available and the PRNP probably (if they would have been smart enough to be tactically sound) take the oppurtunity before even think hitting the Capitol. This approximately happens between 1948-1949. Can't find Stassen promoting nuclear energy though.
2. Thanks for the comments on Stassen.
3. Thanks for feedback on France.

It actually could happen.In that situation,soviets could react to Poznań crisis like that.I see many commies running from Poland here - even if they are not banned,nobody would vote for them for next generation.
And,Poland actually could become soviet ally on its own later,if they continue to be reasonable,and USA continue to be inneficient.

Yeah it made sense.

Now. About Italy :



THE ITALIAN SITUATION



The former Royal Italian Army wasn’t in the best shape to defend a country, in fact it was a miracle they had managed to defend Nizza, Savoy and Lubiana, Dalmatia,Istria and Cattaro. There was a general wish from the Prime Minister to rearm Italy for the potential conflict with the nations bordering them, namely the State of Croatia, the Kingdom of Serbia, the State of Montenegro and the Socialist Republic of Slovenia-Carinthia in the east, while on the North there was Soviet occupied Germany and on the west laid France itching for a rematch to take back the lost lands and Corsica.

De Gasperi, but also controversially Togliatti, wanted to avoid another potential mutilated victory scenario which could form another Mussolini, gave a general amnesty to former royalists and fascists had a similar “treatment”, their crimes before taking up arms against the House of Savoy pardoned but not forgotten, which is why they were given few roles in the new governments, with only specials cases permitted to have participation such as Ettore Muti taking care of the military aviation (1) and Junio Valerio Borghese (2) taking care of the Navy instead, all the while being monitored by the previously monarchist Amedeo Guillet (3) who had become Minister of Defense.

The order of the day was restoring the Bel Paese armed forces, so they three began with haste, with Muti having to rely on the few remaining Italian and former Luftwaffe planes and pilots, meanwhile Guillet could rely on a more vast assortment of both Italian and (surrendered) German veterans (including the notorious Rommel), the latter which brought a an enormous quantity of weapons, tanks, trucks and many other goods, both theirs and from the Soviets and Allies, which they could use and hopefully, reverse engineer what was feasible to do so.

The “aeronautical” inventory from Germany :





50 Messerschmitt Me 262


10 Arado Ar 234 Blitz


2 Messerschmitt Me P 08.01 (4)


1 Horten Ho 229 , one of the only ten that survived which wasn’t captured by either by the Western Allies, as well as Horten Ho XVIII Amerikabomber prototype, who also


The human capital for aviation, besides the many pilots, consisted of Hans Guido Mutke, Germany’s notorious fighter pilot, along with the Horten brothers, who didn’t want to surrender to or get captured by the USSR like many brilliant minds had tried; joining their newfound Italian benefactors was also Woldemar Voigt designed the Me 262 and P.1101 jet aircraft at Messerschmidt. Before the war's end he had redesigned the Me 262 by placing the turbines in the wing roots in Ultimate 262 HGII




The army also had a plethora of tens of thousands of German equipment like MG43s, STG44s, MP40s, Mausers,


Meanwhile the vehicles included mostly : Sonderkraftfahrzeug 251, Bergepanther,Panzer VI Ausf. B "Königstiger", Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. B Schwimmwagen, Flammpanzer VI , Sd.Kfz.231 8-Rad, Sd.Kfz.263 6-Rad , Sd.Kfz.234 Puma,



Borghese unlike the army, had to work with much less numerous leftovers, he had what had survived intact of the Regia Marina, but he got lucky during a diplomatic mission to establish ties with Free India just a little over Bhose’s liberation of his country. He suggested to De Gasperi to send Italian orientalist, Indologist and scholar of East Asian studies Giuseppe Vincenzo Tucci as an unofficial ambassador and the result was an unintended stroke of luck for him and Muti, since the Netajii had still a morbid fascination with the deceased Duce. It turned out just as Italy had many leftover German combatants in his country, so did Free India had Japanese sailors, soldiers, planes and ships, including the famous Yamato and Musashi, who docked in India just as the atomic bombs were about to be dropped.

 

[TheRejectionist]

@Circle of Willis I honestly I am bit of a loss about Italy, one of my own countries, as far as I am aware, I am the only Italian on the The Sietch. Are you aware of any other ? Because I am planning for a national democratic leftists government with Enrico Berlinguer (I argue that leftist that are both democratic, pro-working class and nationalist did exist in Italy, and are today represented by him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Rizzo and his party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_(Italy), who is running in this year's election) and a national populist by Giorgio Almirante, of the Italian Social Movement (in this world they are simply the National Movement).

The only people I know THAT could help me get an idea are an alternatehistory.com but they are as well hard progressive (read sellouts).

From Kolibri of alternatehistory.com there a some interesting ideas Does Your Conscience Bother You?- A George Wallace Victory TL what about Fullbright as VP ? What Chandler would need from GW to say "Ok I am gonna be your running mate?".

 

[Circle of Willis]

@Circle of Willis I honestly I am bit of a loss about Italy, one of my own countries, as far as I am aware, I am the only Italian on the The Sietch. Are you aware of any other ? Because I am planning for a national democratic leftists government with Enrico Berlinguer (I argue that leftist that are both democratic, pro-working class and nationalist did exist in Italy, and are today represented by him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Rizzo and his party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_(Italy), who is running in this year's election) and a national populist by Giorgio Almirante, of the Italian Social Movement (in this world they are simply the National Movement).

The only people I know THAT could help me get an idea are an alternatehistory.com but they are as well hard progressive (read sellouts).

From Kolibri of alternatehistory.com there a some interesting ideas Does Your Conscience Bother You?- A George Wallace Victory TL what about Fullbright as VP ? What Chandler would need from GW to say "Ok I am gonna be your running mate?".

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any other Italians on the Sietch, right-wing or otherwise.

Wallace was an interesting figure whose ideology evolved with the times. As a judge in the '50s, he was slightly more respectful of black lawyers and more lenient on black defendants than the majority of his peers, which cost him his first gubernatorial run - in a hilarious twist of irony, there he was the NAACP's man while his opponent was sponsored by the KKK. He became King Segregationist (Mr. 'I Stand In the Schoolhouse Door, Segregation Now, Segregation Forever') in the '60s, having figured that that was the only way he could win elected office in Alabama at the time. And in the '70s, which seems to be when that timeline you linked makes him president, he had sworn off segregation and tried to recast himself as a moderate figure. Personally, were I writing a 'Wallace becomes President in the 1970s' TL, I would've chosen conservative black guy Clay Smothers (D-TX) as his running mate for maximum lulz.

One major consistent position Wallace had was support for welfare. There's a 1968 interview he gave to William F. Buckley (the intellectual forefather of Reaganite 'fusion' conservatism, blending social conservatism with laissez-faire economics) where one of their first points of disagreement (starting at about 9:40-45) is Wallace's funding of hospitals for the elderly: Buckley argues the standard conservative case (the elderly should be taken care of by their families and by charity, not state funded welfare) and Wallace responds first by basically asking him whether he should just leave these people to die, then by professing that these same problems with indigent seniors exists in New York (where Buckley's from) too so it's not fair to pick on Alabama over this issue. So I would say that for Wallace to get the likes of Happy Chandler on board, he would have to moderate soon after winning the Democratic nomination (like, 'his acceptance speech at the DNC' soon) and tone down the segregationism (although in the '60s, he couldn't possibly abandon it outright like he could after the cultural winds had shifted a decade later) in favor of playing up his support for welfare, how he belongs to the Democratic tradition of FDR, and all that jazz.

 

[TheRejectionist]

It has lost popularity, simply put.

And which ones do you need? We had some of that.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any other Italians on the Sietch, right-wing or otherwise.

Wallace was an interesting figure whose ideology evolved with the times. As a judge in the '50s, he was slightly more respectful of black lawyers and more lenient on black defendants than the majority of his peers, which cost him his first gubernatorial run - in a hilarious twist of irony, there he was the NAACP's man while his opponent was sponsored by the KKK. He became King Segregationist (Mr. 'I Stand In the Schoolhouse Door, Segregation Now, Segregation Forever') in the '60s, having figured that that was the only way he could win elected office in Alabama at the time. And in the '70s, which seems to be when that timeline you linked makes him president, he had sworn off segregation and tried to recast himself as a moderate figure. Personally, were I writing a 'Wallace becomes President in the 1970s' TL, I would've chosen conservative black guy Clay Smothers (D-TX) as his running mate for maximum lulz.

One major consistent position Wallace had was support for welfare. There's a 1968 interview he gave to William F. Buckley (the intellectual forefather of Reaganite 'fusion' conservatism, blending social conservatism with laissez-faire economics) where one of their first points of disagreement (starting at about 9:40-45) is Wallace's funding of hospitals for the elderly: Buckley argues the standard conservative case (the elderly should be taken care of by their families and by charity, not state funded welfare) and Wallace responds first by basically asking him whether he should just leave these people to die, then by professing that these same problems with indigent seniors exists in New York (where Buckley's from) too so it's not fair to pick on Alabama over this issue. So I would say that for Wallace to get the likes of Happy Chandler on board, he would have to moderate soon after winning the Democratic nomination (like, 'his acceptance speech at the DNC' soon) and tone down the segregationism (although in the '60s, he couldn't possibly abandon it outright like he could after the cultural winds had shifted a decade later) in favor of playing up his support for welfare, how he belongs to the Democratic tradition of FDR, and all that jazz.

Here.

Also I gave the story/timeline a new beginning since Hitler dying in 1943 doesn't kickstart the V2 program and the Space Age.

What If : Operation Gallop Was A Success ? (TITLE TO BE CHANGED ASAP)

Couldn't add it here and for some reason it is a mess copy and paste from a phone.

I added as well the Cyprus Emergecy, which also gets more violent than OTL just like the 1956 Poznan Protests.

 

[ATP]

1. I reasoned that to save KMT China he had to do take troops somewhere. PR doesn't have a large force of US soldiers but if Ike's intention is to use all manpower available and the PRNP probably (if they would have been smart enough to be tactically sound) take the oppurtunity before even think hitting the Capitol. This approximately happens between 1948-1949. Can't find Stassen promoting nuclear energy though.
2. Thanks for the comments on Stassen.
3. Thanks for feedback on France.

Yeah it made sense.

Now. About Italy :



THE ITALIAN SITUATION



The former Royal Italian Army wasn’t in the best shape to defend a country, in fact it was a miracle they had managed to defend Nizza, Savoy and Lubiana, Dalmatia,Istria and Cattaro. There was a general wish from the Prime Minister to rearm Italy for the potential conflict with the nations bordering them, namely the State of Croatia, the Kingdom of Serbia, the State of Montenegro and the Socialist Republic of Slovenia-Carinthia in the east, while on the North there was Soviet occupied Germany and on the west laid France itching for a rematch to take back the lost lands and Corsica.

De Gasperi, but also controversially Togliatti, wanted to avoid another potential mutilated victory scenario which could form another Mussolini, gave a general amnesty to former royalists and fascists had a similar “treatment”, their crimes before taking up arms against the House of Savoy pardoned but not forgotten, which is why they were given few roles in the new governments, with only specials cases permitted to have participation such as Ettore Muti taking care of the military aviation (1) and Junio Valerio Borghese (2) taking care of the Navy instead, all the while being monitored by the previously monarchist Amedeo Guillet (3) who had become Minister of Defense.

The order of the day was restoring the Bel Paese armed forces, so they three began with haste, with Muti having to rely on the few remaining Italian and former Luftwaffe planes and pilots, meanwhile Guillet could rely on a more vast assortment of both Italian and (surrendered) German veterans (including the notorious Rommel), the latter which brought a an enormous quantity of weapons, tanks, trucks and many other goods, both theirs and from the Soviets and Allies, which they could use and hopefully, reverse engineer what was feasible to do so.

The “aeronautical” inventory from Germany :





50 Messerschmitt Me 262


10 Arado Ar 234 Blitz


2 Messerschmitt Me P 08.01 (4)


1 Horten Ho 229 , one of the only ten that survived which wasn’t captured by either by the Western Allies, as well as Horten Ho XVIII Amerikabomber prototype, who also


The human capital for aviation, besides the many pilots, consisted of Hans Guido Mutke, Germany’s notorious fighter pilot, along with the Horten brothers, who didn’t want to surrender to or get captured by the USSR like many brilliant minds had tried; joining their newfound Italian benefactors was also Woldemar Voigt designed the Me 262 and P.1101 jet aircraft at Messerschmidt. Before the war's end he had redesigned the Me 262 by placing the turbines in the wing roots in Ultimate 262 HGII




The army also had a plethora of tens of thousands of German equipment like MG43s, STG44s, MP40s, Mausers,


Meanwhile the vehicles included mostly : Sonderkraftfahrzeug 251, Bergepanther,Panzer VI Ausf. B "Königstiger", Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausf. B Schwimmwagen, Flammpanzer VI , Sd.Kfz.231 8-Rad, Sd.Kfz.263 6-Rad , Sd.Kfz.234 Puma,



Borghese unlike the army, had to work with much less numerous leftovers, he had what had survived intact of the Regia Marina, but he got lucky during a diplomatic mission to establish ties with Free India just a little over Bhose’s liberation of his country. He suggested to De Gasperi to send Italian orientalist, Indologist and scholar of East Asian studies Giuseppe Vincenzo Tucci as an unofficial ambassador and the result was an unintended stroke of luck for him and Muti, since the Netajii had still a morbid fascination with the deceased Duce. It turned out just as Italy had many leftover German combatants in his country, so did Free India had Japanese sailors, soldiers, planes and ships, including the famous Yamato and Musashi, who docked in India just as the atomic bombs were about to be dropped.

Horten Ho229 - germans accidentally made it stealth for radars of their age.You coud use that.
Another interesting idea - Lippish P.13 ramjet - it never fly,but it suppose to be 2M fast,and use coal as fuel.
Italians had their own good fighters - Macchi Mc205,Re-2005,G-55.All good enough for fighting soviets.

Tanks - forget Tiger,but germans proposed italians producing Panther in 1943,and belived that they could made 50 per month.
Made it Panther 2 with 88/71mm gun,and it would serve till 1975 as efficient tank.

Or,if they get Skoda designs,T.25 with autoloader.Why not both?
Till they mass produce them,Semovente M.25 and M.46 could be made - good enough to serve,and cheap.More important - italians arleady made them.

Navy - if free India have japaneese ships,they would not gave it to Italy.Sorry.And you do not need battleships anyway,althought...Musashi would be cool ship to have.
And only for that reason i would buy it.And for naval parades,too!
Real catch would be one or two japaneese carriers.

 

[Batrix2070]

Here.

Ok, here's a list of technology companies from Poland.
Unitra-OTL was a communist unification of the electronics and telecommunications industry established in 1961. Here you can make a state-backed huge moloch producing much of the consumer electronics in the style of the Korean and Japanese OTL molochs.
And if you don't want to, below you have a few selected Unitra companies (brands) that can be made independent.
Biazet S.A - manufacturer of TVs and monitors and what is needed to build them. Headquartered in Bialystok but due to the fact that here Poland has Vilnius and thus Grodno you can move to Grodno which is the capital of Podlasie. (Real) From here you can change the name to Grozet S.A.

CEMAT-an experimental plant producing materials and synetic gemstones for the electronics industry

CEMI - Manufacturer of semiconductors and other microelectronics stuff (today it no longer exists and it's a pity, it would help us a lot)

Diora - established during the communist era in 1945, the first post-war radio manufacturer. The name itself, by the way, is an anagram of the word Radio. OTL was located in Lower Silesia, and was built on a post-German factory, here you can move it to Upper Silesia, or somewhere else in Lesser Poland

Dolam - manufacturer of sensors, displays and some integrated circuits.

Eltra - a pre-war factory from the electrical engineering industry, (unfortunately, the founder died before the war in 1938 and his daughter and son-in-law who owned the factory were executed by the Germans). It produced mainly components but later they tried their hand and built their own radio receiver (1959, Eltra MOT-59 mini transistor receiver)

RADMOR - manufacturer of communications equipment for the military and other government services. Until 1971 it was called MORS but RADMOR was spun off from MORS. Here it can be divided into two smaller ones as part of the reprivatization

Fonika or ZWAT - manufacturer of telephones and turntables initially, after which production changed and they were already producing radios, but you can cast that aside and focus on telephones.

ZKR (Zaklady Radiowe im. Marcina Kasprzaka) until the 1960s mainly produced radios, after moving all production to Dior they began to produce tape recorders, portable radiomagnetophones with time tower type music sets.

Elwa - a major manufacturer of radio components

WZT "Telza" (Warsaw Television Works) - a major manufacturer of televisions, was established in 1955 in Warsaw from the production of televisions under the Soviet license Wisla.

ELWRO - the main computer manufacturer in Poland, producing ODRA computers, calculators and so on. OTL was founded in Wroclaw, here rather not in Poland so you can move the factory to Radom, for example, and call it ELRAD


Of course there is more but these few examples should suffice.

 

[Sergeant Foley]

I feel a bit better now. Things are not ok with my mom but they could be worse. First session of chemotherapy went fine except the symptoms that came later (nausea, skin irratation, no loss of hair for now). So, this one of my many ideas in alternate history before I discovered the Sietch and got banned three times. This is sort of a fix up I won't finish. For now. Anyhow : here it is in the next posting. Sort of a red-brown alliance after 1945. @Circle of Willis @ATP @Butch R. Mann @ATP @bintananth @KilroywasNOTHere since you guys expressed interest in my previous and @LTR since
you might want to read something that is not my delirious content moved to the DonbAss thread.

KHARTOUM, KINGDOM OF EGYPT, 1944​

Giorgio woke up, shaken. Initially he thought it was the scorching heat of Khartoum waking him up, almost as bad as the Libyan desert, but his was the OVRA man. The last time he woke him up like that was when the British Prime Minister Churchill had died of a heart attack at the White House two years prior. So it must be good news!


<< Hurry up Almirante. We have to go. >>


<<Where ? >>


<< Back to Italy. Immediately ! >>


<< Why ? >>


<< The war is over. We lost >>


<< What do you mean it’s over ? >>


<< It’s over. The king signed an armistice and we are going to be not welcome here in a matter. The Communists hordes have reached the Meuse river and Berlin will likely fall any minute now. >>


<< Oh my God.>>


<< We are having problems in Abyssinia, so our only way back to our country is going North. I don’t want to risk getting speared by an Amara again! >>


<< How did it happened ? >>


<< Well, we haven't received a communication about the homefront in months. I guess our Duce thought we could still get out of this. Even Japan is surrendering! >>


<< Their situation isn’t like ours…>>


<< I don’t know what the hell happened but the Americans went heavy on them and they wiped off the map two cities. >>


<< What’s new ? Von Greim did the same to the perfidious English and … >>


<< Almirante ! They razed two cities in a single day with only one bomb for each! I don’t know how but they fucking did ! >>

Is this one of those juicy timelines?

 

[TheRejectionist]

Is this one of those juicy timelines?

Oh god I wish I could have developed it. Giorgio Almirante and Enrico Berlinguer were some of the most intriguing and interesting in contemporary Italian history. Problems with this were many : my schedules, occasional writer's block and the fact that alternatehistory when has major point of divergences it becomes a pain in the butthole to write as a narrative and not as a speculative history book. As of now I have integrated most of my alternate-history ideas here :

Roter Rhein , Krasnyy Reyn - What If The Axis Members Called It Quits In Early 1943?

So, after my mom's fifth session of chemotherapy, things are...slightly but decisevly better, not only I got back to study for my last three exams but time to read what I like about : horror podcasts, alternate history and more. So, I browsed the net and I got inspiration from this article ...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

The Rejectionist Repository

My attempt to "Brasilianize" the Mapinduzi logo. A badly done NO Barbarossa timeline. A Greater/Longer Afghanistan. Considering Taliban aspirations I wouldn't be surprise if it becomes a reality ONE day. A collapsed Ethiopia someone did for me in alternatehistory,com. Another flag I...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

I would have reposted them here but it would have a bigger pain in the arse by using links to upload the images (for some reason the secretprojects image links don't work here!) so here where we are now.

 

[Sergeant Foley]

Oh god I wish I could have developed it. Giorgio Almirante and Enrico Berlinguer were some of the most intriguing and interesting in contemporary Italian history. Problems with this were many : my schedules, occasional writer's block and the fact that alternatehistory when has major point of divergences it becomes a pain in the butthole to write as a narrative and not as a speculative history book. As of now I have integrated most of my alternate-history ideas here :

Roter Rhein , Krasnyy Reyn - What If The Axis Members Called It Quits In Early 1943?

So, after my mom's fifth session of chemotherapy, things are...slightly but decisevly better, not only I got back to study for my last three exams but time to read what I like about : horror podcasts, alternate history and more. So, I browsed the net and I got inspiration from this article ...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

The Rejectionist Repository

My attempt to "Brasilianize" the Mapinduzi logo. A badly done NO Barbarossa timeline. A Greater/Longer Afghanistan. Considering Taliban aspirations I wouldn't be surprise if it becomes a reality ONE day. A collapsed Ethiopia someone did for me in alternatehistory,com. Another flag I...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

I would have reposted them here but it would have a bigger pain in the arse by using links to upload the images (for some reason the secretprojects image links don't work here!) so here where we are now.

These AH freaks are so damn triggered by everything 😎

 

[TheRejectionist]

These AH freaks are so damn triggered by everything 😎

It was more of a practical problem of mine than any of ah shit.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Good stuff. I think you've nailed Stassen's character - certainly he must have not only been idealistic, but a pretty stubborn guy too, what with him running for president 13 times IRL. I'll guess that the Puerto Rican nationalists didn't launch an attack on the Capitol in your timeline as they did historically, both since you didn't mention it and because it would've invited a much harsher response from Washington than the relatively conciliatory one Stassen advocated.

As far as the hard-line French leadership goes, my suggestion would be to look to the leaders of the 1958 and 1961 military coups. Although they may have been pretty brutal colonialists and counterinsurgency pioneers, the generals involved were aligned with Free France during WW2 and celebrated for it (Raoul Salan for example was the most decorated soldier in the French Army until he tried to overthrow De Gaulle IRL), so they should theoretically be a little less offensive to Stassen's and Eisenhower's sensibilities than straight up Vichy dudes would be. If they need a civilian puppet for legitimacy purposes, I would recommend looking up politicians with a pro-colonial record such as Georges Bidault.

Only other recommendation I can think of at this time is that the new French regime should probably be called something other than the 'French State', since that was literally the official name of Vichy France. 'French Nation', perhaps, or 'French National State' just to distinguish it a little from the old collaborator state? Maybe even 'French Social Republic', there's an association with the Republic of Salò (AKA the Italian Social Republic) to worry about but maybe that's an obscure enough topic for the anti-De Gaulle plotters to get away with it.

So it will take A WHILE to return to Roter Rhein , Krasnyy Reyn - What If The Axis Members Called It Quits In Early 1943? now my mom just got operated from cancer. After 7 months and only 4 months of operation, she is well.

 

[ATP]

So it will take A WHILE to return to Roter Rhein , Krasnyy Reyn - What If The Axis Members Called It Quits In Early 1943? now my mom just got operated from cancer. After 7 months and only 4 months of operation, she is well.

polish monk,Andrzej Klimuszko,invented mix of herbs which help against cancer.You could try that.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Big update time !

My mother's situation got better! The operation has success! While they only got like 90% of the cancer
The guy running the forum thought it was TOOO off topic but he had his reasons and they were valid.

I am starting to update what I have there... Yes I am going to doing also on the Sietch but I think for me to start ANOTHER thread for it.

For @Circle of Willis : any clue who could be the worst democratic canditates and vps in 1964 and 1968 that ARE NOT Wallace ? I was thinking of an LBJ ticket (or why not let's go with fucking JFK, he probably will not have the same advantages he had in 1960-3) but you as an US citizen probably know of worse.

Also a question : who would be the Minister of Interior in the US? I mean the one who takes care of internal security (police, law enforcement et al) because I couldn't fucking understand which "Secretary" did that and was thinking of sorta name dropping Dewey (he doesn't look like the type that would run AGAINST war hero Eisenhower in 1948) but for his stance on crime he would be a nice addition against crime.

I was thinking also

What events could different in the US and worlwide between 1956 that could go different? I am kinda planning for the Conspiracy of the Pure (the 1956 coup attempt against Batista, it's only in Spanish the article in Wikipedia) and have a better Cuba-American relations since Stassen was much more moderate regarding Cuba , was looking for also to someone photoshop Eisenhower or Stassen with Castro.

@Batrix2070 @ATP I am gonna use some of the companies, even though I think with Poland "out with Communism" in 1956 it is already a stretch for the ones being founded between 1959-1961 to still exist. It will be basically just name dropping because already making Italy alternate-history and US and world is already a lot.

@Sergeant Foley it's gonna be a different timeline. The tendency of Alternate Histories, especially POST-1900 is that they go ONE OR ALL OF THEM OR SOME OF THEM : AS window dressing, overuse some tye of AH (Confederacy and Nazis anyone?), goes with Balkanization EXCESSIVELY, goes too good or too bad for some countries (like the Footprint of Mussolini).

My idea is for some things to go "bad" or "good" or simply... middle way ? Like the USSR looses Poland and Czechoslovakia early and doesn't get countries like Romania to Albania. The USA doesn't get "my dick is better than yours" but it's just...chilling...until 1964. They also have "Whole Korea" but will not necesserally translate into a good factor for the US.

AND THERE IS A LEFTIST(KINDA) Japanese Empire.

France is dictatorial and want to get Britain also in that direction. But I don't plan to all go badly.

Africa also hasn't seen yet decolonization. I want to get until present day, even if only superficially.

Trying to find a logical way also for the USSR to not exist beyond 1981 instead of 1991 and avoiding the mess it was in our world.

Also did I mention that Israel didn't have a war in 1952 and has to worry only about 3 (soon to be 2) neighbors instead of 4?

 

[Circle of Willis]

Big update time !

My mother's situation got better! The operation has success! While they only got like 90% of the cancer
The guy running the forum thought it was TOOO off topic but he had his reasons and they were valid.

I am starting to update what I have there... Yes I am going to doing also on the Sietch but I think for me to start ANOTHER thread for it.

For @Circle of Willis : any clue who could be the worst democratic canditates and vps in 1964 and 1968 that ARE NOT Wallace ? I was thinking of an LBJ ticket (or why not let's go with fucking JFK, he probably will not have the same advantages he had in 1960-3) but you as an US citizen probably know of worse.

Also a question : who would be the Minister of Interior in the US? I mean the one who takes care of internal security (police, law enforcement et al) because I couldn't fucking understand which "Secretary" did that and was thinking of sorta name dropping Dewey (he doesn't look like the type that would run AGAINST war hero Eisenhower in 1948) but for his stance on crime he would be a nice addition against crime.

I was thinking also

What events could different in the US and worlwide between 1956 that could go different? I am kinda planning for the Conspiracy of the Pure (the 1956 coup attempt against Batista, it's only in Spanish the article in Wikipedia) and have a better Cuba-American relations since Stassen was much more moderate regarding Cuba , was looking for also to someone photoshop Eisenhower or Stassen with Castro.

Hey, that's great to hear re: your mother's condition improving I wish her the best of health.

Worst Dem candidates for '64 and '68...well, you could always go with an even worse segregationist than Wallace. A Strom Thurmond who stays Democratic, for example - he already split from and tried to undermine Truman in the 1948 election. James Eastland, Lester Maddox or John Stennis would be other great choices if you want to push blacks (and other minorities! Eastland hated Jews too, for example) away from the Democratic Party. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you could also consider far-left activists such as Philip Burton or Shirley Chisholm who'd prove as alienating and ultimately unelectable as George McGovern did in 1972 historically.

Incidentally I am not American, but Canadian. No worries though, I can see why it might be easy to confuse me for the former since my only other TL on this site is about American politics - what can I say, it's true that their politics tend to be vastly more interesting than ours, haha. But unless I just roll it into another timeline, maybe someday I'll dust off my 'No Trudeau' TL idea and actually get around to hammering it out.

The US doesn't and isn't supposed to really have a 'Minister of the Interior' in the sense that you're talking about, basically a domestic security minister. They do have a Secretary of the Interior but that is a position which oversees the national parks, not homeland security. The closest to what you're looking for is the Attorney General, who is indeed the top law enforcement officer in the country by virtue of heading the Department of Justice. Dewey would be a fine choice for the role given his known crime-busting expertise, or if you want to move in a more dystopian direction you could put J. Edgar Hoover there instead (in my research for Dewey Defeats Truman, I found that Hoover actually cut a deal with Dewey in which the latter promised to make him AG and eventually, Chief Justice, while also putting his deputy Clyde Tolson in charge of the FBI).

I'm aware of Barquin's Conspiracy of the Pure, rolled with it for DDT actually, and IMO it's a great way to change things up in Cuba & get rid of Batista without also putting Castro in power (if you don't want to that is).

 

[ATP]

Big update time !

My mother's situation got better! The operation has success! While they only got like 90% of the cancer
The guy running the forum thought it was TOOO off topic but he had his reasons and they were valid.

I am starting to update what I have there... Yes I am going to doing also on the Sietch but I think for me to start ANOTHER thread for it.

For @Circle of Willis : any clue who could be the worst democratic canditates and vps in 1964 and 1968 that ARE NOT Wallace ? I was thinking of an LBJ ticket (or why not let's go with fucking JFK, he probably will not have the same advantages he had in 1960-3) but you as an US citizen probably know of worse.

Also a question : who would be the Minister of Interior in the US? I mean the one who takes care of internal security (police, law enforcement et al) because I couldn't fucking understand which "Secretary" did that and was thinking of sorta name dropping Dewey (he doesn't look like the type that would run AGAINST war hero Eisenhower in 1948) but for his stance on crime he would be a nice addition against crime.

I was thinking also

What events could different in the US and worlwide between 1956 that could go different? I am kinda planning for the Conspiracy of the Pure (the 1956 coup attempt against Batista, it's only in Spanish the article in Wikipedia) and have a better Cuba-American relations since Stassen was much more moderate regarding Cuba , was looking for also to someone photoshop Eisenhower or Stassen with Castro.

@Batrix2070 @ATP I am gonna use some of the companies, even though I think with Poland "out with Communism" in 1956 it is already a stretch for the ones being founded between 1959-1961 to still exist. It will be basically just name dropping because already making Italy alternate-history and US and world is already a lot.

@Sergeant Foley it's gonna be a different timeline. The tendency of Alternate Histories, especially POST-1900 is that they go ONE OR ALL OF THEM OR SOME OF THEM : AS window dressing, overuse some tye of AH (Confederacy and Nazis anyone?), goes with Balkanization EXCESSIVELY, goes too good or too bad for some countries (like the Footprint of Mussolini).

My idea is for some things to go "bad" or "good" or simply... middle way ? Like the USSR looses Poland and Czechoslovakia early and doesn't get countries like Romania to Albania. The USA doesn't get "my dick is better than yours" but it's just...chilling...until 1964. They also have "Whole Korea" but will not necesserally translate into a good factor for the US.

AND THERE IS A LEFTIST(KINDA) Japanese Empire.

France is dictatorial and want to get Britain also in that direction. But I don't plan to all go badly.

Africa also hasn't seen yet decolonization. I want to get until present day, even if only superficially.

Trying to find a logical way also for the USSR to not exist beyond 1981 instead of 1991 and avoiding the mess it was in our world.

Also did I mention that Israel didn't have a war in 1952 and has to worry only about 3 (soon to be 2) neighbors instead of 4?

Good for your mother.

Since Poland would be free again,you could use pre-war companies,and add new.For example microcomputers - first one,K202 was made in OTL in Poland after 1970,but never produced - becouse it was made by private inventor,not state company.

P.S He was Jacek Karpiński,and made his microcomputer between 1970 and 1973.It had 8kB memory.
In your TL,it could be polish Apple.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Hey, that's great to hear re: your mother's condition improving I wish her the best of health.

Worst Dem candidates for '64 and '68...well, you could always go with an even worse segregationist than Wallace. A Strom Thurmond who stays Democratic, for example - he already split from and tried to undermine Truman in the 1948 election. James Eastland, Lester Maddox or John Stennis would be other great choices if you want to push blacks (and other minorities! Eastland hated Jews too, for example) away from the Democratic Party. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you could also consider far-left activists such as Philip Burton or Shirley Chisholm who'd prove as alienating and ultimately unelectable as George McGovern did in 1972 historically.

Incidentally I am not American, but Canadian. No worries though, I can see why it might be easy to confuse me for the former since my only other TL on this site is about American politics - what can I say, it's true that their politics tend to be vastly more interesting than ours, haha. But unless I just roll it into another timeline, maybe someday I'll dust off my 'No Trudeau' TL idea and actually get around to hammering it out.

The US doesn't and isn't supposed to really have a 'Minister of the Interior' in the sense that you're talking about, basically a domestic security minister. They do have a Secretary of the Interior but that is a position which oversees the national parks, not homeland security. The closest to what you're looking for is the Attorney General, who is indeed the top law enforcement officer in the country by virtue of heading the Department of Justice. Dewey would be a fine choice for the role given his known crime-busting expertise, or if you want to move in a more dystopian direction you could put J. Edgar Hoover there instead (in my research for Dewey Defeats Truman, I found that Hoover actually cut a deal with Dewey in which the latter promised to make him AG and eventually, Chief Justice, while also putting his deputy Clyde Tolson in charge of the FBI).

I'm aware of Barquin's Conspiracy of the Pure, rolled with it for DDT actually, and IMO it's a great way to change things up in Cuba & get rid of Batista without also putting Castro in power (if you don't want to that is).

Ok yeah I did assume you were American.

I want to touch upon Canada, was thinking of the country going authoritarian after an assassination of Pierre Trudeau during the Quebec Crisis by having him assassinated.

How long can an Attorney General serve? I know unlike Presidents there are no term limits for them.

Personally I see the authoritarianism of Castro as avoidable, he might get elected in my TL but he probably doesn't have the 3 years of support he gained during his resistance and I see the Americans after Stassen to try to back someone like Martin Diaz Tamayo to oppose him, pumping a lot of cash into whoever goes against him. But before that, they can get contacts on who's who in the Italian-American Mafia and other criminals, or people the United States AND the world would benefit not being in the CIA payroll.

Also re-read briefly your timeline on Dewey, Smathers seemed an interesting character and seems like the only pro-LATAM politician in the USA. What would be chance of winning in a 1964 election in your opinion? I was thinking of him having Fullbright as VP or as Secretery of Foreign Affairs. The only thing I didn't understand from your timeline is why he was selected... because I found no historical evidence of him being considered. Neither with Google or Brave search engine.

1968-1988 I was thinking for having Democratic candidates having dominance, with an impeachment of the winner of the 1988 election (you know who it is because it is most devious and blatant liar) the next year.

Good for your mother.

Since Poland would be free again,you could use pre-war companies,and add new.For example microcomputers - first one,K202 was made in OTL in Poland after 1970,but never produced - becouse it was made by private inventor,not state company.

P.S He was Jacek Karpiński,and made his microcomputer between 1970 and 1973.It had 8kB memory.
In your TL,it could be polish Apple.

Why not? Seems like a great idea. Though will have to compete with Olivetti-Mario Tchou computers

 

[Circle of Willis]

Ok yeah I did assume you were American.

I want to touch upon Canada, was thinking of the country going authoritarian after an assassination of Pierre Trudeau during the Quebec Crisis by having him assassinated.

How long can an Attorney General serve? I know unlike Presidents there are no term limits for them.

Personally I see the authoritarianism of Castro as avoidable, he might get elected in my TL but he probably doesn't have the 3 years of support he gained during his resistance and I see the Americans after Stassen to try to back someone like Martin Diaz Tamayo to oppose him, pumping a lot of cash into whoever goes against him. But before that, they can get contacts on who's who in the Italian-American Mafia and other criminals, or people the United States AND the world would benefit not being in the CIA payroll.

Also re-read briefly your timeline on Dewey, Smathers seemed an interesting character and seems like the only pro-LATAM politician in the USA. What would be chance of winning in a 1964 election in your opinion? I was thinking of him having Fullbright as VP or as Secretery of Foreign Affairs. The only thing I didn't understand from your timeline is why he was selected... because I found no historical evidence of him being considered. Neither with Google or Brave search engine.

1968-1988 I was thinking for having Democratic candidates having dominance, with an impeachment of the winner of the 1988 election (you know who it is because it is most devious and blatant liar) the next year.

Funny enough, Trudeau was the one pushing the most authoritarian measures in the Quebec Crisis (invoking the War Measures Act and consequent imposition of martial law). If he were assassinated, it would seem to vindicate his actions (whereas today we have a whole historical debate as to whether martial law was an appropriate course of action, since the FLQ was defeated pretty anticlimactically).

A dead Trudeau would probably have been succeeded in the short term by his trusted lieutenant and (unofficial, but officially post-1977) Deputy PM Allan MacEachen as the Acting Prime Minister until a Liberal Party convention to select a permanent successor could be called. MacEachen could win and become PM in his own right, or else John Turner (the Minister of Justice and head of the Blue Liberal faction, basically the right-wing of the Grits) might take the job. Whoever wins will have to crack down hard on the FLQ with the gloves off - some of them got to flee to Cuba in a deal cut with Trudeau's government historically, but after killing him in this timeline, they'll probably all have to die or be placed in life imprisonment.

AGs can serve as long as they're retained in that position by the president, as you say there is no term limit on that office.

Well, as long as you don't kill Castro. Without him we wouldn't have our incumbent Prime Minister either, after all

Smathers only semi-seriously ran in 1960 as a 'favorite son' candidate for the Florida Dems. In DDT, he wins by virtue of being the most palatable unifier candidate in a more segregationist-inclined Democratic Party, being a relative moderate on that issue despite also hailing from Florida and having positive ties with liberal Northern Democrats like the Kennedys (he was good friends with JFK IRL). He wouldn't have much of a presidential future in a timeline where the Democrats are either more liberal, or the Dixiecrat faction are more firmly in control and feel no need to compromise with the 'Damnyankee' wing of the party. As for Fulbright, I think he'd be a great choice for either a running mate to a more liberal Democratic candidate (balancing the ticket) or as Smathers' Secretary of State (foreign affairs minister), yeah.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Funny enough, Trudeau was the one pushing the most authoritarian measures in the Quebec Crisis (invoking the War Measures Act and consequent imposition of martial law). If he were assassinated, it would seem to vindicate his actions (whereas today we have a whole historical debate as to whether martial law was an appropriate course of action, since the FLQ was defeated pretty anticlimactically).

A dead Trudeau would probably have been succeeded in the short term by his trusted lieutenant and (unofficial, but officially post-1977) Deputy PM Allan MacEachen as the Acting Prime Minister until a Liberal Party convention to select a permanent successor could be called. MacEachen could win and become PM in his own right, or else John Turner (the Minister of Justice and head of the Blue Liberal faction, basically the right-wing of the Grits) might take the job. Whoever wins will have to crack down hard on the FLQ with the gloves off - some of them got to flee to Cuba in a deal cut with Trudeau's government historically, but after killing him in this timeline, they'll probably all have to die or be placed in life imprisonment.

AGs can serve as long as they're retained in that position by the president, as you say there is no term limit on that office.

Well, as long as you don't kill Castro. Without him we wouldn't have our incumbent Prime Minister either, after all

Smathers only semi-seriously ran in 1960 as a 'favorite son' candidate for the Florida Dems. In DDT, he wins by virtue of being the most palatable unifier candidate in a more segregationist-inclined Democratic Party, being a relative moderate on that issue despite also hailing from Florida and having positive ties with liberal Northern Democrats like the Kennedys (he was good friends with JFK IRL). He wouldn't have much of a presidential future in a timeline where the Democrats are either more liberal, or the Dixiecrat faction are more firmly in control and feel no need to compromise with the 'Damnyankee' wing of the party. As for Fulbright, I think he'd be a great choice for either a running mate to a more liberal Democratic candidate (balancing the ticket) or as Smathers' Secretary of State (foreign affairs minister), yeah.

Any important events that I should be aware for this time frame : 1957-1968/9 ?

So the idea would have to be like this :

Stassen until 1964, but also I wanted a literal Lobster War between France and Brazil, with the latter having UZIs and Italian jet fighters (yes we were just out of WW2 but we managed to have prototypes in the early 1950s to 1956/9) to culminate in December 1964. Historically it ended in 1963, but with one Brazilian president not resigning (crazy cunt but likable one unlike Lula)...I am wondering

I would keep Barry Goldwater (I am having trouble of a sacrificial lamb that would win and it is not easy to do) as a Republican winner and Presidential winner.

Just for the Soviets to win the space race in 1968.

Handing the presidency to a 2 turns Smathers-Fulbright (so 1968-1976) then other Democrats 1976-1988.

I tried to avert most crisis...keeping stuff stuff to boil up in the 1980s.

I am undecided if to keep the Soviets up for a decade less or a decade more than our world. Or maybe just like OTL.

I am having trouble

 

[Circle of Willis]

Any important events that I should be aware for this time frame : 1957-1968/9 ?

So the idea would have to be like this :

Stassen until 1964, but also I wanted a literal Lobster War between France and Brazil, with the latter having UZIs and Italian jet fighters (yes we were just out of WW2 but we managed to have prototypes in the early 1950s to 1956/9) to culminate in December 1964. Historically it ended in 1963, but with one Brazilian president not resigning (crazy cunt but likable one unlike Lula)...I am wondering

I would keep Barry Goldwater (I am having trouble of a sacrificial lamb that would win and it is not easy to do) as a Republican winner and Presidential winner.

Just for the Soviets to win the space race in 1968.

Handing the presidency to a 2 turns Smathers-Fulbright (so 1968-1976) then other Democrats 1976-1988.

I tried to avert most crisis...keeping stuff stuff to boil up in the 1980s.

I am undecided if to keep the Soviets up for a decade less or a decade more than our world. Or maybe just like OTL.

I am having trouble

Sure I can think of some, but you're going to have to be a bit more specific - do you mean events in general around the globe during that timeframe or in Canada specifically? I can't tell if you're still referring to the latter lol. In that case, probably the biggest things that went down in that timeframe for us were the cancellation of the Avro Arrow and Quebec's Quiet Revolution (which turned Quebec from a staunchly Catholic, conservative nationalist bastion into a left-wing nationalist bastion instead and made it possible for Pierre Trudeau to arise in the first place).

I don't think Goldwater would have won the 1964 Republican primaries & convention in a timeline where Stassen's a two-term president. He was the chief of the nascent conservative wing; a long Stassen presidency (and Eisenhower's terms before him) would have entrenched the dominance of the GOP's liberal faction, quite unlike what happened IOTL where Nixon's 1960 defeat weakened them. I think it's far more likely that Goldwater's main competitor IRL, the Governor of NY Nelson Rockefeller, would take the nomination in your timeline (he also had some personal scandals that could damage his 1968 prospects - you could just move his messy divorce and scandalous remarriage to a divorcee down a few years). If the conservatives have still managed to gain strength in the Stassen years, Senator Leverett Saltonstall (R-MA) could be a good compromise candidate in 1964 to mediate between the Goldwater & Rockefeller factions.

Re: the 1968 Democratic candidates, I don't think Smathers would have picked Fulbright as his running mate - both men were conservative Southerners (even if Smathers was a pretty moderate one compared to his neighbors) and Fulbright's segregationist record would have killed their ticket's prospects in the North and West. Most likely IMO Fulbright would've been tapped for Secretary of State, but Smathers would need a liberal or moderate non-Southerner to balance the ticket both geographically and ideologically. If he can't pick his buddy JFK (as he did in DDT) due to the latter's probable health issues by '68, he could maybe pick RFK (if he's done something to gain a national profile over the '60s), arch-liberal Midwestern Democrat Hubert Humphrey or even a more out-of-the-box candidate like Wayne Morse (dovish Senator from Oregon - he was a Republican originally who defected when Eisenhower put Nixon on the ticket IRL, but even without that he'd probably have left over the USA's support for Chiang and the French dictatorship in your timeline) or Mike DiSalle (former governor of OH).

Well, if you're going to have the Soviets win the Space Race, maybe give them until the turn of the millennium before going under?

 

[ATP]

Sure I can think of some, but you're going to have to be a bit more specific - do you mean events in general around the globe during that timeframe or in Canada specifically? I can't tell if you're still referring to the latter lol. In that case, probably the biggest things that went down in that timeframe for us were the cancellation of the Avro Arrow and Quebec's Quiet Revolution (which turned Quebec from a staunchly Catholic, conservative nationalist bastion into a left-wing nationalist bastion instead and made it possible for Pierre Trudeau to arise in the first place).

I don't think Goldwater would have won the 1964 Republican primaries & convention in a timeline where Stassen's a two-term president. He was the chief of the nascent conservative wing; a long Stassen presidency (and Eisenhower's terms before him) would have entrenched the dominance of the GOP's liberal faction, quite unlike what happened IOTL where Nixon's 1960 defeat weakened them. I think it's far more likely that Goldwater's main competitor IRL, the Governor of NY Nelson Rockefeller, would take the nomination in your timeline (he also had some personal scandals that could damage his 1968 prospects - you could just move his messy divorce and scandalous remarriage to a divorcee down a few years). If the conservatives have still managed to gain strength in the Stassen years, Senator Leverett Saltonstall (R-MA) could be a good compromise candidate in 1964 to mediate between the Goldwater & Rockefeller factions.

Re: the 1968 Democratic candidates, I don't think Smathers would have picked Fulbright as his running mate - both men were conservative Southerners (even if Smathers was a pretty moderate one compared to his neighbors) and Fulbright's segregationist record would have killed their ticket's prospects in the North and West. Most likely IMO Fulbright would've been tapped for Secretary of State, but Smathers would need a liberal or moderate non-Southerner to balance the ticket both geographically and ideologically. If he can't pick his buddy JFK (as he did in DDT) due to the latter's probable health issues by '68, he could maybe pick RFK (if he's done something to gain a national profile over the '60s), arch-liberal Midwestern Democrat Hubert Humphrey or even a more out-of-the-box candidate like Wayne Morse (dovish Senator from Oregon - he was a Republican originally who defected when Eisenhower put Nixon on the ticket IRL, but even without that he'd probably have left over the USA's support for Chiang and the French dictatorship in your timeline) or Mike DiSalle (former governor of OH).

Well, if you're going to have the Soviets win the Space Race, maybe give them until the turn of the millennium before going under?

I hope,that in this TL Quebec would stand.Sad thing - they survived protestant prosecution,but not neomarxists.