Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

[Bacle]

So what is it now? East Asia?
Brexit according to Bacle:

UK has decided that it doesn't want to have such close political relations with France and Germany (which was, considering their current difference in course of actions, confirmed yet again), but geographically, it didn't move a single inch, and still is a NATO country.

Britain sees itself s something separate from Europe, which is why Brexit happened, and thus I do not class it as 'Western Europe' but as it's own thing.

Any Russian incursion into Ukraine would be disastrous, UK's Johnson says

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Thursday warned Russia that any kind of incursion into Ukraine would be a disaster for the world, saying the London stood squarely behind the sovereignty and integrity of Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

Marduk posted earlier that US would fund an insurgency.

Fun thing.
The refugee crisis will be at a whole new level for friendly countries out there.
But again, you seem to only care if Taiwan is at risk. Screw any other Sovereign country

Which is why France and Germany did not invite the US or UK to be part of those talks.

It is not America's job to be 'world police', no matter how much the DoD needs that to be the case to justify their budget, power, and golden parachutes/pensions.

 

[Agent23]

I wouldn't listen to the NeoLibtards and NeoCucks, period.
Not even if they paid me to attend one of their overpriced corpo-sponsored speaking tours.

 

[Zachowon]

Wasn't the Normady Front stuff already something formed prior?

 

[Marduk]

Britain sees itself s something separate from Europe, which is why Brexit happened, and thus I do not class it as 'Western Europe' but as it's own thing.

If that is so, then why does Britain care more about what happens in Ukraine than France and Germany who are in no way separate from Europe?

Which is why France and Germany did not invite the US or UK to be part of those talks.

No, that's universally called organizing a circlejerk. Why invite someone with a different opition, when you could just talk it out with people who already agree with you, sit back, exchange some nods, and announce great success in establishing a consensus.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Britain sees itself s something separate from Europe, which is why Brexit happened, and thus I do not class it as 'Western Europe' but as it's own thing.

So is Norway not part of Europe because it's not part of the EU? What about Switzerland? Great Britain is part of Europe. It's always been considered part of Europe. Stop being silly.

Which is why France and Germany did not invite the US or UK to be part of those talks.

TBF your basing that off of Jack Posobiec's twitter feed as opposed to anything stated from France or Germany or Russia. Because there are still NATO/US-Russia talks ongoing you realize that are apparently of a higher level atm?

 

[Husky_Khan]

Wasn't the Normady Front stuff already something formed prior?

No this is unprecedented and never happened before. This is the end of US influence in Western Europe.

Merkel to update Obama on four-party talks on Ukraine crisis

President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel are trying for a public display of unity despite a potential split over arming Ukrainian fighters to wage a more effective battle against Russian-backed separatists.

www.ctvnews.ca

Oh oops... I posted the wrong article to support my argument. That one is about four party talks on the Ukraine Crisis from 2015.

 

[Zachowon]

Don't forget DE Gaul having France no longer in the NATO chain of command.

 

[Zachowon]

Russian military intervention in Kazakhstan could be prelude to invading Ukraine - NewsBreak

Russia's intervention in protests in Kazakhstan has increased Western concern over the ongoing crisis between Russia and Ukraine

www.newsbreakapp.com

 

[Sobek]

Russia holds most of the board, I think they might win this round.

I would like to congratulate the rabid Climate Change Cultists on turning off nuclear power in Germany and most of Europe and giving Putin the perfect carte blanche to blackmail the west by just turning the gas pipe on winter.

 

[Agent23]

Russia holds most of the board, I think they might win this round.

I would like to congratulate the rabid Climate Change Cultists on turning off nuclear power in Germany and most of Europe and giving Putin the perfect carte blanche to blackmail the west by just turning the gas pipe on winter.

Well, it is the west that doesn't want to admit that Russia has legitimate interests in Ukraine and that there is a large segment, even a majority, in Eastern Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia or independent of Ukraine.

Self determination is a thing...only when the neoLibtards and neoCucks say it is I guess.

Putin will not invade unless the loons in Ukraine do not force his hand, and I doubt they will, since they get too much money grifting from the west.

 

[WolfBear]

Russia holds most of the board, I think they might win this round.

I would like to congratulate the rabid Climate Change Cultists on turning off nuclear power in Germany and most of Europe and giving Putin the perfect carte blanche to blackmail the west by just turning the gas pipe on winter.

If Russia does, in fact, invade Ukraine up to the point of imposing outright regime change there (though maybe with a rump Free Ukraine surviving in Ukraine's western territories), how many people do you think will subsequently immigrate from Ukraine (due to the new, more oppressive regime) and Russia (due to the new, much more severe Western sanctions) to Israel?

Well, it is the west that doesn't want to admit that Russia has legitimate interests in Ukraine and that there is a large segment, even a majority, in Eastern Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia or independent of Ukraine.

Self determination is a thing...only when the neoLibtards and neoCucks say it is I guess.

Putin will not invade unless the loons in Ukraine do not force his hand, and I doubt they will, since they get too much money grifting from the west.

I have no problem with the separatist Donbass either joining Russia or becoming independent just so long as their people genuinely want this. But outright Russian regime change in Kiev is a completely different ball game.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Russia holds most of the board, I think they might win this round.

Well it depends if it's actual posturing or not from Putin. There seems to be arguments that Putin obviously wants a thick chunk of Ukraine or all of it because of his own legacy and thinking a nice juicy conquest would be a good capstone to his career. But there's also the case of does Putin really want a War? Unless its a steamroll of Ukraine on the level of the 2014 Crimea and initial bits regarding the Donbass War it could cost a lot of blood and treasure. Is the cost-benefit ratio even there? Would the invasion of Ukraine and taking some or all of it actually improve the Russian outlook? Would Europe or NATO really be cowed and abandon the Baltics and Poland and let NATO shatter and just chug natural gas in perpetuity? Would there be no risk of an ongoing civil conflict or insurgency and NATO being like, 'sucks for Ukraine but at least we can have the Ukranian insurgents post Syrian Civil War style videos of Javelins hitting Russian tanks on Twitter and point and laugh at them.'

I would like to congratulate the rabid Climate Change Cultists on turning off nuclear power in Germany and most of Europe and giving Putin the perfect carte blanche to blackmail the west by just turning the gas pipe on winter.

Well the German stance is still unknown. Previously the new German government stated that the Nordstream 2 Pipeline was purely economic, but in the past few days then stated that everything is on the table in regards to potential economic sanctions. The new German Foreign Minister who recently met the Russians was actually in Ukraine earlier in the week visiting them. Probably to set up these Normandy Format negotiations that had taken place before in the wake of the 2014 War in the Donbass.

They're not allowing German equipment to be exported to Ukraine or use of their Airspace, but seeing that as Germany pledging allegiance to Russia over NATO or whatever is premature. They're probably not seeing the point in provoking Russia before any aggression beyond posturing and a military buildup has taken place.

The shocking thing is that different countries can have different interests and viewpoints that are all actually cogent and not neccessarily contradictory even if they aren't in lockstep with each other.

Self determination is a thing...only when the neoLibtards and neoCucks say it is I guess.

Obviously, feel free to ignore me but it would be nice if we all could talk like general adults unless we're actually legitimately provoked. There was a huge 'argument' where Marduk and History Learner and Zachowon and Bacle and everyone was involved prior to this and while there was ad hominems and obvious antipathy including insults, they didn't go right off the bat with silly slurs, probably because its infantile.

Like you could just call people Liberals or Progressives or Conservatives or NeoConservatives or Right Wingers. But calling people (or just stating your opinion and implying anyone who disagrees with you with such slurs) Tards, Cucks, Nazis, Nigs, Fags, Groomers, Pedos and other moronic shit because they disagree with you on school choice or fiscal monetary policy or Central Asian foreign relations is pretty shit and deleterious when it comes to the quality of the "free speech" discussion on this website.

 

[Marduk]

Well, it is the west that doesn't want to admit that Russia has legitimate interests in Ukraine

Can we get into the details of what exactly are those interests?
And to not be too focused on caring poor Russia's interests, for comparison can we talk about what interests do Poland, Ukraine and Baltic States have in Belarus and Kaliningrad Enclave? Because Russia would laugh if someone mentioned those.

and that there is a large segment, even a majority, in Eastern Ukraine that wants to be part of Russia or independent of Ukraine.

Yup. The should be absolutely free to immigrate to Russia, always were, and still are.
Exactly the same as is the case with some people of Polish nationality in Siberia, though the last part is not as good in their case.
Anything beyond that is more of a touchy situation, which may or may not reasonable be turned into independent or autonomous regions, but in either case, should decision cannot be trusted to be done fairly at gunpoint.

Self determination is a thing...only when the neoLibtards and neoCucks say it is I guess.

So both side don't give a damn about self-determination unless it just so happens to fit their goals at the moment.

Let's say, hypothetically, everyone in the west and Ukraine would agree to solve the controversy purely by national self-determination standard. Legions of officials from UN and all sorts of neutral powers descend upon Ukraine, organize referendums in all the controversial parts of Ukraine, ensure the results are honest, and then draw lines on the map reflecting the result, and Ukraine is forced to agree to it. In the end, Luhansk, Donbass, and even several additional areas close to them decide they are full of Russians and don't want to be dragged into whatever the Ukrainian nation wants, leaving as minor independent countries, or joining Russia. Fine. But the flipside of that is that the remaining 2/3 or so of Ukraine is allowed to join the EU and NATO with Russia having exactly zero say about that, as that's a matter between sovereign nation-state of Ukraine and EU/NATO respectively.
Do you think Putin would be happy with that solution?
I for one think he would consider that a disaster, a near total defeat barely sweetened by a little consolation prize of the few extra millions of Russians with their lands.

 

[WolfBear]

So both side don't give a damn about self-determination unless it just so happens to fit their goals at the moment.

Let's say, hypothetically, everyone in the west and Ukraine would agree to solve the controversy purely by national self-determination standard. Legions of officials from UN and all sorts of neutral powers descend upon Ukraine, organize referendums in all the controversial parts of Ukraine, ensure the results are honest, and then draw lines on the map reflecting the result, and Ukraine is forced to agree to it. In the end, Luhansk, Donbass, and even several additional areas close to them decide they are full of Russians and don't want to be dragged into whatever the Ukrainian nation wants, leaving as minor independent countries, or joining Russia. Fine. But the flipside of that is that the remaining 2/3 or so of Ukraine is allowed to join the EU and NATO with Russia having exactly zero say about that, as that's a matter between sovereign nation-state of Ukraine and EU/NATO respectively.
Do you think Putin would be happy with that solution?
I for one think he would consider that a disaster, a near total defeat barely sweetened by a little consolation prize of the few extra millions of Russians with their lands.

This is why Putin doesn't want to annex the Donbass. He wants it inside of Ukraine in order to serve Russia's geopolitical interests there. A Russian Donbass would mean a Ukraine with less Russian influence inside of it. Though the same is also true for a separatist Donbass in general.

 

[Bacle]

Germany just fired the head of their navy for saying we need Russia on the west's side to counter China.

This as negotiations begin in the 4 party talks.

 

[Zachowon]

Russia toughens its posture amid Ukraine tensions - NewsBreak

With tens of thousands of Russian troops positioned near Ukraine, the Kremlin has kept the U.S. and its allies guessing about its next moves in the worst security crisis to emerge between Moscow and the West since the Cold War

www.newsbreakapp.com

Germany just fired the head of their navy for saying we need Russia on the west's side to counter China.

This as negotiations begin in the 4 party talks.

We don't, and they never would join us

 

[Marduk]

Germany just fired the head of their navy for saying we need Russia on the west's side to counter China.

This as negotiations begin in the 4 party talks.

Well for him to say that in public, at this moment, not a surprise he got rebuked in this way...
He is right about some points.
Yeah, Russia doesn't want a small part of Ukraine, that doesn't matter much to it. Russia wants to have the whole thing really.
And he's right that its unlikely that in any realistic scenario Russia will give back what it has taken from Ukraine.
He's also right that Russia wants respect...
He forgets to add that it also wants that respect backed with more material gestures, and even if it was going to get both, its not really going to return the favor, and certainly not in proportion.
Which goes into Russia's relations with China. Whether the west wants and/or needs Russia on its side or not, Russia has already decided which side it wants to be on. And not necessarily because it prefers China as an ally, but because it prefers Europe as the enemy. After all, there is no room to play silly games with China. No hybrid warfare, no influence ops, none of that stuff Russia is getting so much bang out of its meager bucks in the west. Its a completely closed society, even more so than Russia. So far, the only options for them are a MAD reinforced mutual respect between two countries who are nearly immune to "silly games" both from each other and third parties, while having common interest in reducing western influence on world stage, or China launching a devastating trade war against Russia, which would force Russia to switch sides at a major cost, but they don't want that happen anytime soon obviously.

Meanwhile Russia can have all sorts of fun and wargames on their western frontier, as current situation demonstrates, what's the west going to do about it?

Russia can demand respect from such a non-serious actor, even feel entitled to it, but it cannot return such respect for that same reason - it is, after all, a non-serious actor from their perspective, so irrationally vulnerable and easily distracted with so many silly causes and pet peeves. Why would anyone respect that?

 

[WolfBear]

@History Learner FWIW, I think that Ukraine's Deputy Prime Minister gave a good answer at a recent (I think) BBC event in Kiev as to why exactly the West should care about Ukraine: Specifically due to the fact that Ukraine considers itself to be a part of the West (even if it still significantly lags behind on things such as corruption).

Now, I do think there is an argument in favor of prudence in order to avoid big risks such as a nuclear war, but still, I do think that we owe it to the Ukrainians to fund and support an anti-Russian insurgency on their part if enough of them are interested in this. If Russia wants to create a neutralist Ukraine in a part of Ukraine, then have them show that neutrality is a more attractive option for Ukrainians themselves than a pro-Western orientation is. Which Ukraine will thrive more in the future: Free Ukraine (located in western Ukraine) or Vichy Ukraine? A very interesting question. Free Ukraine might have a lot of corruption, but it would also likely have more freedom of speech and freedom of expression than Vichy Ukraine has.

As for Ukraine containing Neo-Nazis, don't worry, they're highly useful for their role as cannon fodder in any anti-Russian insurgency in Ukraine!

 

[History Learner]

Germany just fired the head of their navy for saying we need Russia on the west's side to counter China.

This as negotiations begin in the 4 party talks.

This has been something I've been saying for ages, which is one reason I'm more amendable to Russian desires. In the Second Cold War, do you want the Russians as a neutral or a foe? It's a question many need to consider here.

 

[History Learner]

@History Learner FWIW, I think that Ukraine's Deputy Prime Minister gave a good answer at a recent (I think) BBC event in Kiev as to why exactly the West should care about Ukraine: Specifically due to the fact that Ukraine considers itself to be a part of the West (even if it still significantly lags behind on things such as corruption).

I'm not exactly a fan of the modern West, if you haven't picked up on that.