So...NATO is expanding...

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Looks like they will pay respects to the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.



Perhaps get some Peat and Reindeer Meat and some Nokia/Ericsson Phones or something as Tribute... I honestly don't know what Sweden and Finland produce.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Looks like they will pay respects to the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire.



Perhaps get some Peat and Reindeer Meat and some Nokia/Ericsson Phones or something as Tribute... I honestly don't know what Sweden and Finland produce.


More like Erdrogan wants to pretend he’s a sultan with his dreams, er, delusions of restoring the Ottoman Empire.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
I actually do care about Saudi Arabia attacking Yemen, which is why I don't actually view the Houthis as the bad guys in that war.
Ok, you are consistent. But again this is the nature of world powers.

Because 1) it's 2022, not 1822, and 2) there are a wide variety of options between "Making the World Safe For Democracy" and "Going Full Sankoku Japan."

In the case of Russia/Ukraine and China/Taiwan, it's because their actions actually impact us and our neighbors. And the fact that where distances used to require months to travel now can be covered in hours. And the fact that we have significant interests in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, for different reasons.

The "globalism" view has pretty much gone out of fashion, but working closely with friendly nations means that we don't have to be The Guy in every situation (although our sheer size and the resources we can bring to bear as a result mean that if we have to, we absolutely can).

With Russia and Ukraine? We really don't want to have to remilitarize Europe like we did post-1945, and worry about what's currently going on being repeated over and over in other countries. And part of the reason is that we've been shipping equipment and other support to Ukraine so we *don't* have to take a more active role.

With China and Taiwan, it's because the latter is actually a democracy and a friendly country, whole the former is our biggest geopolitical rival and even if we tried to ignore them, they are going to focus on us, simply because we are too big to be ignored. Likewise we really don't want the Korean War going hot again, nor do we want China deciding to start wars on its borders again and causing who knows how many humanitarian crises as well as massive disruptions in the economy. Like it or not, it impacts the U.S. directly.

Burying our heads in the sand does not and has never worked. We have tried that, repeatedly, and it failed.

Oh, and a final note on the Monroe Doctrine: The only reason it stuck was because there was a global power willing to help us enforce it (the British). The U.S. never had the ability during that time to project power beyond Mexico and the Caribbean...and even by 1914 it was clear we couldn't do *that* much in response to what went on even south of the border.
Why does it matter whether another nation is a democracy? The only reason we have "interests" in Europe and Asia is because the rich capitalist class keeps dragging us over there. Also no we haven't tried isolationism and it failed. It kept getting sabotaged by people like you who want the US to be involved in other nations business. Like world war 1 was not a failure of isolationism. If the U.S. did not join and Germany won, who cares? They would be stuck in Europe they would not be able to come here to the New World. Same with every other war. So what if China is the master of Asia? Why should America be involved in Asia, America should stay in America? The same for the world wars why should America care if Germany is master of Europe, or later Russia becomes master of Europe? Why should someone in the New World care what happens in the old?

More like Erdrogan wants to pretend he’s a sultan with his dreams, er, delusions of restoring the Ottoman Empire.
Except he does have some authority and influence. Namely the veto power. Without his approval Finland, and Sweden can't join NATO.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
More like Erdrogan wants to pretend he’s a sultan with his dreams, er, delusions of restoring the Ottoman Empire.
Except he does have some authority and influence. Namely the veto power. Without his approval Finland, and Sweden can't join NATO.
Turkey has considerable ambitions, no doubt. Russia getting bloodied only helps those ambitions along.

I'm not sure that pretending that Turkey is a friend/ally is actually helpful in any way. They're the token evil team-mate of the NATO club anyway. Perhaps it's time to just kick them out, sanction the hell out of them, and be done with it.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder


So Edry's being dipshit again.

This time it seems like the buried demand is that Sweden and Finland stop supporting 'anti-Turkish groups' in Syria.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Turkey has considerable ambitions, no doubt. Russia getting bloodied only helps those ambitions along.

I'm not sure that pretending that Turkey is a friend/ally is actually helpful in any way. They're the token evil team-mate of the NATO club anyway. Perhaps it's time to just kick them out, sanction the hell out of them, and be done with it.
What possible logical reason do you have for this stance? Again don't act emotionally because of liberal beliefs. Finland and Sweden are not that useful. Sweden especially with their liberalism. Turkey is useful because of it's location and ability to control the route from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea. Why is having Finland and Sweden in NATO and protecting them so important to you?
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
What possible logical reason do you have for this stance? Again don't act emotionally because of liberal beliefs. Finland and Sweden are not that useful. Sweden especially with their liberalism. Turkey is useful because of it's location and ability to control the route from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea. Why is having Finland and Sweden in NATO and protecting them so important to you?
"Again"? We haven't discussed this before, so hardly "again". Nor am I motived by liberal beliefs. My motivation is that Turkey is not a friend, and not even an ally. They are a scorpion that we have pressed to our chest, and I see no reason to keep the damned creature there.

I don't care much about Finland or Sweden, but the Turkish stance is clear: they don't care about the interests of the West, or NATO. They care about Turkey, to our detriment. They'll readily -- eagerly -- sacrifice NATO's collective security to srve their own goals. Even if those are the pettiest of goals.

So what if push comes to shove? Do you think the Turks will stand with us? No. They'll betray us at the earliest convenience, and it'll be all the easier from their position within NATO. So remove them now. Cast out these fifth columnists. Know them for the enemy they really are.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Turkey has considerable ambitions, no doubt. Russia getting bloodied only helps those ambitions along.

I'm not sure that pretending that Turkey is a friend/ally is actually helpful in any way. They're the token evil team-make of the NATO club anyway. Perhaps it's time to just kick them out, sanction the hell out of them, and be done with it.
Good job blocking even more energy project that can supply the EU and turning the Black Sea into a Russo-Chinese lake if that happens. 😂
This will make building pipelines from Azerbaijan and the other countries in the area and drilling for gas and oil around Cyprus, and putting pipelines there, impossible.
But hey, a grand Russo-Slavic-Turkic-Chinese alliance ruling over most of Asia and a nice chunk of Eastern Europe has been something of a fantasy of mine, and the West doing this to Turkey shall be sliding the last piece of the puzzle in place.

Anyways, here is some cool Turkic music to go with that:
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Why does it matter whether another nation is a democracy? The only reason we have "interests" in Europe and Asia is because the rich capitalist class keeps dragging us over there.

Now you're just spouting off like some dipshit socialist. It's not "the rich" who drive this, it's the fact that the U.S., as a whole, has an interest in making sure no single power dominates Europe and Asia, because that would pose a security threat to the U.S. Perhaps less direct today, but it's a situation that would not serve American interests. Not just those of some class of oligarchs who don't exert the kind of power you seem to think.

As to whether a country is a democracy or not? It doesn't have to be to serve American interests, and I think you're misreading my reasons for backing Taiwan over mainland China. One is a democratic country that is overall quite friendly to U.S. interests (and is the hub of all semiconductor production, without which the rest of the world would be screwed if the PRC took it over). The other is a genocidal totalitarian state bent on trying to bully the rest of the Pacific Rim countries, which is problematic for the U.S. because of longstanding ties and for a variety of reasons.

Also no we haven't tried isolationism and it failed. It kept getting sabotaged by people like you who want the US to be involved in other nations business.

The 1920s and 1930s say hi and would like to point out you're full of it. Also 1945-1950, when it became clear that the Soviet Union wasn't interested in peaceful coexistence with the West despite American attempts otherwise. Including a massive disarmament post war that ended up biting us in the ass when the Korean War broke out.

And notably I'm not saying "we need to be involved everywhere", I'm saying "We have interests in various parts of the world, and sticking our heads in the sand doesn't work."

Like world war 1 was not a failure of isolationism. If the U.S. did not join and Germany won, who cares? They would be stuck in Europe they would not be able to come here to the New World. Same with every other war.

The question isn't whether they could invade, the question is whether they could drive us into the ground economically and basically force a collapse or at least severe weakening of the U.S. economy, which would in turn lead to a massive political crisis the likes of which would make the Great Depression look like a minor hiccup.

So what if China is the master of Asia? Why should America be involved in Asia, America should stay in America? The same for the world wars why should America care if Germany is master of Europe, or later Russia becomes master of Europe? Why should someone in the New World care what happens in the old?

Because as I noted above, there are complex factors that can result in threats to the U.S. that don't involve being invaded, something you really don't seem to get. So let me try to put it this way:

1) The distance from New York to London is about 3,500 miles. That's only a few hundred miles more than the distance to LA, and about a thousand miles closer than Alaska or Hawaii. So, they aren't anywhere near as "distant" as you seem to think.

2) Alaska and Hawaii, by virtue of their locations, are much more vulnerable to threats on the Pacific Rim (like China) than the Northeast, and that doesn't even take into account territories like Guam which are even closer. Unless you're saying we should cede American territory and American citizens to the enemy, we *have* to be concerned about what the Chinese will do -because they have a much stronger focus on fighting and defeating us than we have in fighting them (take the propaganda films about fighting in Korea or leveling Guam as two examples).

3) If you can't figure out why it's not in our interests to be pushed around by genocidal dictatorships who despise America and would love nothing more than to see us destroyed, whether at their own hands or via internal pressures they heat up...might I suggest reading a history book on what exactly the Germans *did* to occupied Europe during World War II? There's this thing called "The Holocaust" for one.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Turkey has considerable ambitions, no doubt. Russia getting bloodied only helps those ambitions along.

I'm not sure that pretending that Turkey is a friend/ally is actually helpful in any way. They're the token evil team-mate of the NATO club anyway. Perhaps it's time to just kick them out, sanction the hell out of them, and be done with it.
Turkey is a frenemy for sure, but with their pretty significant military power and strategic location they can certainly compensate for that. In this specific situation, well, its not like they are giving some crazy long wishlist or demanding something absurd. In the grand scheme of things, from western perspective his blackmail with migrants was far worse, and yet he got his deal for that. Consider who the questioned support is going for. Is anyone prepared to argue that Gulenists or Kurdish communists are such important or deserving allies that western countries cannot afford to throw them under the bus for any reason?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Turkey is a frenemy for sure, but with their pretty significant military power and strategic location they can certainly compensate for that. In this specific situation, well, its not like they are giving some crazy long wishlist or demanding something absurd. In the grand scheme of things, from western perspective his blackmail with migrants was far worse, and yet he got his deal for that. Consider who the questioned support is going for. Is anyone prepared to argue that Gulenists or Kurdish communists are such important or deserving allies that western countries cannot afford to throw them under the bus for any reason?

TBH, I also think that Turkey deserves respect for taking in and sheltering over 3.5 million Syrian refugees. That's much more than the wealthier Gulf states (also nominal US allies) have taken. I guess that the legendary Arab generosity only goes so far while Turkish generosity goes much further. Not surprising since Turkey used to be a multiethnic and multinational empire.

Just give Gulenists and Kurdish Communists asylum somewhere in the West where they won't cause much trouble and be done with it, no?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
TBH, I also think that Turkey deserves respect for taking in and sheltering over 3.5 million Syrian refugees. That's much more than the wealthier Gulf states (also nominal US allies) have taken. I guess that the legendary Arab generosity only goes so far while Turkish generosity goes much further. Not surprising since Turkey used to be a multiethnic and multinational empire.
If it was just that, it would have been great. Extorting the EU with facilitating illegal immigration though, that's not respectable, that's a hostile move against fellow NATO countries mostly.
Just give Gulenists and Kurdish Communists asylum somewhere in the West where they won't cause much trouble and be done with it, no?
Why? Doesn't the west have enough problems with islamists and communists already?
Let the islamists seek asylum in one of the many regional countries with Sharia based constitution, and let commies fuck off to China, Venezuela, Cuba or North Korea.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
If it was just that, it would have been great. Extorting the EU with facilitating illegal immigration though, that's not respectable, that's a hostile move against fellow NATO countries mostly.

Well, it's not unreasonable for Turkey to want some financial help for its expenses in taking care of millions of Syrian refugees.

Why? Doesn't the west have enough problems with islamists and communists already?
Let the islamists seek asylum in one of the many regional countries with Sharia based constitution, and let commies fuck off to China, Venezuela, Cuba or North Korea.

Yeah, fair point. Though I do like any Kurds who are vehemently hostile to ISIS.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Well, it's not unreasonable for Turkey to want some financial help for its expenses in taking care of millions of Syrian refugees.
But by who, why Europe, and even if asking would have been fair, blackmail probably still goes beyond the line.

Yeah, fair point. Though I do like any Kurds who are vehemently hostile to ISIS.
So? Commies and Nazis hated each other too, didn't make either of them sympathetic. Its not like Kurds are even hostile to ISIS out of some kind of charity, or as a favor to the west. Its just like ISIS wants to kill any they stumble upon, like many other people, and they can either fight or die, so its not like they have much of a choice in the matter.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
But by who, why Europe, and even if asking would have been fair, blackmail probably still goes beyond the line?


So? Commies and Nazis hated each other too, didn't make either of them sympathetic. Its not like Kurds are even hostile to ISIS out of some kind of charity, or as a favor to the west. Its just like ISIS wants to kill any they stumble upon, like many other people, and they can either fight or die, so its not like they have much of a choice in the matter.

I think the argument is that the West is wealthy and thus has some extra money to give. But Yes, blackmail is definitely going over the line here.

TBF, Kurds could declare themselves pro-ISIS. It's not like their religion is an obstacle. They're Sunni Muslims, not Shi'a Muslims. But they nevertheless choose to fight ISIS instead.

OK, male Kurds could declare themselves pro-ISIS. Female Kurds are unlikely to have any place in an ISIS Caliphate other than as mass breeders.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I think the argument is that the West is wealthy and thus has some extra money to give. But Yes, blackmail is definitely going over the line here.
Saudis and Gulf States have even more to spare, and are clearly closer related to the region in question, in geographic and cultural sense.
The real argument is that the EU is too soft for its own good and is more likely to take this kind of bullshit than anyone else.
TBF, Kurds could declare themselves pro-ISIS. It's not like their religion is an obstacle. They're Sunni Muslims, not Shi'a Muslims. But they nevertheless choose to fight ISIS instead.

OK, male Kurds could declare themselves pro-ISIS. Female Kurds are unlikely to have any place in an ISIS Caliphate other than as mass breeders.
They could...
But that would mean they would have to stop being commies, as that is an obstacle. And if they were willing to stop being commies, that would have opened some other options for them in this and any other scenario.
But they aren't, so they can't.
 

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