Soviet plans for offensive war in 1941

[Aldarion]

So what do you think, was Suvorov right and was Stalin planning to attack Hitler in 1941.? Because I know Soviet Union had planned aggressive expansion after 1917. revolution which was beaten back in Poland, Finland and Baltic countries, so it seems logical that they wouldn't give up such plans easily.

I have found answers ranging from "yes" to "no" to everything in between:

Stalin’s Gambit – Did the Soviets Plan for a 1941 Offensive War Against Nazi Germany? - MilitaryHistoryNow.com

Private Site

historyandwar.org

Did Stalin Plan to Attack Hitler in 1941? The Historiographical Controversy Surrounding the Origins of the Nazi-Soviet War

The controversy surrounding the origins of the Nazi-Soviet War in 1941, namely over the issue of whether or not Stalin intended to launch an offensive against Nazi Germany that year, has produced a contentious debate between revisionist (i.e. those...

www.inquiriesjournal.com

 

[ATP]

So what do you think, was Suvorov right and was Stalin planning to attack Hitler in 1941.? Because I know Soviet Union had planned aggressive expansion after 1917. revolution which was beaten back in Poland, Finland and Baltic countries, so it seems logical that they wouldn't give up such plans easily.

I have found answers ranging from "yes" to "no" to everything in between:

Stalin’s Gambit – Did the Soviets Plan for a 1941 Offensive War Against Nazi Germany? - MilitaryHistoryNow.com

Private Site

historyandwar.org

Did Stalin Plan to Attack Hitler in 1941? The Historiographical Controversy Surrounding the Origins of the Nazi-Soviet War

The controversy surrounding the origins of the Nazi-Soviet War in 1941, namely over the issue of whether or not Stalin intended to launch an offensive against Nazi Germany that year, has produced a contentious debate between revisionist (i.e. those...

www.inquiriesjournal.com

Of course,Suworow proved,that he was right,becouse:
1.22.6.41 in some places NKWD border units was replaced by army - which would happen ONLY if soviets plan to attack soon.
2.Barbed wire was in many cases removed - which also happened ONLY if they want to attack
3.Radios was in middle of changing codes - which also happened only if war would happen
4.Planes was on airfields even 8km from border - and in many cases destroyed by artilery or tanks.It would happen ONLY if soviet planned to attack.
5.Artillery was on border,wit ammo stocked on land - if they planned attacking in 1942,they would build schelters,becouse schells after winter on fresh air could be scrapped.
6.Soviets had 16 paratrooper brigades there - no need for defence - and their gliders do not have schelters,too.
After one winter it would become wet wood.

I am sure,that there was more - but i remember only this.

 

[PsihoKekec]

The problem is that ''Suvorov'' is a con man who is not above lying to his target audience in order to get money from them. His Cold war era books about Soviet Army, GRU and Spetnaz are full of fabrications, portraying the Soviet forces as much stronger than they actually were. His books on WWII are in the same vein, pandering to ''Hitler dindu nuffin'' crowd.

Fact is that Winter war badly shocked Stalin, who realized that his vaunted army is actually shit and opposing him is Wehrmacht, which defeated French and Brits in mere six weeks. That is why a mayor reform and modernization of Red Army started, a process that at most optimistic estimates would take them at least until the second half of 1942 to conclude. Red Army was not ready for any kind of offensive operations in 1941 and Stalin knew that, it's why he was trying to play for time with Hitler.

 

[ATP]

The problem is that ''Suvorov'' is a con man who is not above lying to his target audience in order to get money from them. His Cold war era books about Soviet Army, GRU and Spetnaz are full of fabrications, portraying the Soviet forces as much stronger than they actually were. His books on WWII are in the same vein, pandering to ''Hitler dindu nuffin'' crowd.

Fact is that Winter war badly shocked Stalin, who realized that his vaunted army is actually shit and opposing him is Wehrmacht, which defeated French and Brits in mere six weeks. That is why a mayor reform and modernization of Red Army started, a process that at most optimistic estimates would take them at least until the second half of 1942 to conclude. Red Army was not ready for any kind of offensive operations in 1941 and Stalin knew that, it's why he was trying to play for time with Hitler.

Suworow used soviet and german sources from 1941 in his work.
You said,that soviet army do not wanted to attack?Fine.

But explain,why they removed barbed wire on frontier,or replaced NKWD with army there.
Becouse according to soviet manuals,it happened ONLY if they plan to attack in next few weeks.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Suvorov cherry picked the little bit of data that supported his theory and ignored the mountains of data that didn't.

But explain,why they removed barbed wire on frontier,or replaced NKWD with army there.

Soviets did not remove barbed wire at border, at some sectors barb wire entanglements were moved to fortified areas of Molotov line, because production of barbwire was insufficient. You do know that Soviets were building their version of Maginot line at their western border at the time, right?

Soviets also didn't remove NKVD border guards anywhere, at some places army and NKVD shared garrisons, like in Brest fortress.

Soviet defense doctrine envisioned that the first echelon would engage the enemy right at the border, that is why Molotov line was being built in newly annexed territories and the first line forces were garrisoned so close to border. However the construction of fortifications had priority, so construction of new garrisons, depots and airfields lagged behind, with Soviet forces having to do with what existed before the annexation.

 

[ATP]

Suvorov cherry picked the little bit of data that supported his theory and ignored the mountains of data that didn't.



Soviets did not remove barbed wire at border, at some sectors barb wire entanglements were moved to fortified areas of Molotov line, because production of barbwire was insufficient. You do know that Soviets were building their version of Maginot line at their western border at the time, right?

Soviets also didn't remove NKVD border guards anywhere, at some places army and NKVD shared garrisons, like in Brest fortress.

Soviet defense doctrine envisioned that the first echelon would engage the enemy right at the border, that is why Molotov line was being built in newly annexed territories and the first line forces were garrisoned so close to border. However the construction of fortifications had priority, so construction of new garrisons, depots and airfields lagged behind, with Soviet forces having to do with what existed before the annexation.

Nope.According to soviet doctrine,they amassed troops on border ONLY if they wanted to attack.If they plan to defend,that main forces would be far from border.
Suworow proved it using soviet manuals.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Wrong, according to soviet manuals the first echelon meets the enemy at the border, that's why they were building Molotov line there, or do you believe that they were building all those bunkers for shit and giggles?

 

[ATP]

Wrong, according to soviet manuals the first echelon meets the enemy at the border, that's why they were building Molotov line there, or do you believe that they were building all those bunkers for shit and giggles?

bunkers - not.But they built airfields even 8km from border - which mean,that they plan to attack.
The same goes for artllery regiments.
Germans captured thousends of guns on border,becouse they were arleady there,but rest of their dyvisions was still coming.

You take artillery to border,only if you want attack.
The same goeas for tanks.

 

[PsihoKekec]

But they built airfields even 8km from border

Wrong, these were airfields from before the soviet occupation, the airfields they started building during occupation were not finished yet.

Artillery captured on the border was from the rifle divisions deployed on the border, though most of these divisions were not at full personal strength as they were still at peacetime status, not something you do if you are about to attack.

The same goeas for tanks.

The only tanks at border were from the battalions attached to rifle divisions (military reforms were not finished yet). Tank divisions were further back.

 

[ATP]

Wrong, these were airfields from before the soviet occupation, the airfields they started building during occupation were not finished yet.

Artillery captured on the border was from the rifle divisions deployed on the border, though most of these divisions were not at full personal strength as they were still at peacetime status, not something you do if you are about to attack.



The only tanks at border were from the battalions attached to rifle divisions (military reforms were not finished yet). Tank divisions were further back.

1.Poland practically do not built airfields there.Those who existed were made mostly later by soviets - near border.If they wanted to defend themselves,all would be bukit at least 100k from border.

2.Most soviet Mechanized corps on first vave was on border. in Białystok case - mechanized corp there have road only leading to german hold territories.
They were delivered there by trains through forest.
All they could do there was attack germans.

3.When soviet commanders opened their orders after german attack,they found orders to attack.Which they tried to do - but,since people thought tat german come to liberate tem,most sodiers run without fight.

If half of soviet fought,they would stop german on border.If all of them fought,Berlin would fall in 1942.

 

[History Learner]

The problem is that ''Suvorov'' is a con man who is not above lying to his target audience in order to get money from them. His Cold war era books about Soviet Army, GRU and Spetnaz are full of fabrications, portraying the Soviet forces as much stronger than they actually were. His books on WWII are in the same vein, pandering to ''Hitler dindu nuffin'' crowd.

Fact is that Winter war badly shocked Stalin, who realized that his vaunted army is actually shit and opposing him is Wehrmacht, which defeated French and Brits in mere six weeks. That is why a mayor reform and modernization of Red Army started, a process that at most optimistic estimates would take them at least until the second half of 1942 to conclude. Red Army was not ready for any kind of offensive operations in 1941 and Stalin knew that, it's why he was trying to play for time with Hitler.

There's been a lot of movement on this in favor of Suvorov in recent years.

David Glantz in the most recent addition of When Titans Clash directly states the Spring of 1942 as the most likely date and Antony Beevor states the Winter of 1941-1942; these are both mainstream, established historians in the West. In Russia itself, Boris Sokolov adds credence to their claims by outlining what he considers offensive preparations stretching back as far as 1940. In particular, we know from Glantz that Stalin ordered a partial mobilization in April of 1941 and this accelerated in the weeks leading up to the invasion; the American military attache in Moscow at the time Barbarossa began actually thought the Soviets had beat the Germans to the punch.

Certainly, we also know Stalin greatly accelerated air base construction in the Western frontier regions leading up to Barbarossa and that Zhukov had completed offensive planning in May of 1941 just prior to the attack. Soviet force dispositions were also geared to the attack, particular with mechanized units and airborne division allocations. Whether Suvorov was wrong if the attack was imminent in June of 1941 or not is one thing, but nobody seems to really deny nowadays that the Germans got the jump on the Soviets, the question remains by how much. Ergo, at least directionally correct on his part.

 

[ATP]

There's been a lot of movement on this in favor of Suvorov in recent years.

David Glantz in the most recent addition of When Titans Clash directly states the Spring of 1942 as the most likely date and Antony Beevor states the Winter of 1941-1942; these are both mainstream, established historians in the West. In Russia itself, Boris Sokolov adds credence to their claims by outlining what he considers offensive preparations stretching back as far as 1940. In particular, we know from Glantz that Stalin ordered a partial mobilization in April of 1941 and this accelerated in the weeks leading up to the invasion; the American military attache in Moscow at the time Barbarossa began actually thought the Soviets had beat the Germans to the punch.

Certainly, we also know Stalin greatly accelerated air base construction in the Western frontier regions leading up to Barbarossa and that Zhukov had completed offensive planning in May of 1941 just prior to the attack. Soviet force dispositions were also geared to the attack, particular with mechanized units and airborne division allocations. Whether Suvorov was wrong if the attack was imminent in June of 1941 or not is one thing, but nobody seems to really deny nowadays that the Germans got the jump on the Soviets, the question remains by how much. Ergo, at least directionally correct on his part.

Indeed.
Suworow used only soviet and german sources - and all lead to conclusion,that soviets would attack in 1941.

 

[Pef]

There are 3 extra reasons not mentioned above at all.

1. Border guards in Soviet Union were mostly used to keep the people in. For example, thousands of civilian Romanians gunned down in 1940-41 as they tried to flee to Romania after the annexation of eastern parts.
2. Poland had barely been conquered in 1939 and mass executions were taking place, either civilians or military prisoners.
Same for the Baltics States. Military occupation means military.
3. Some hints of a German attack were given, then disregarded as the Germans struck south instead, towards Yugoslavia and Greece. Plus, Hitler assured Stalin of his friendship and that he totaly wasn't attacking.
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4. Stalin did plan to attack Germany too, but waited for an opportunity, such as a second front in the West. He wasn't building 100k tanks and airplanes for a parade, when Germany had 3k each. Still, he would have liked to rebuild the military and integrate the conquered lands.

 

[ATP]

There are 3 extra reasons not mentioned above at all.

1. Border guards in Soviet Union were mostly used to keep the people in. For example, thousands of civilian Romanians gunned down in 1940-41 as they tried to flee to Romania after the annexation of eastern parts.
2. Poland had barely been conquered in 1939 and mass executions were taking place, either civilians or military prisoners.
Same for the Baltics States. Military occupation means military.
3. Some hints of a German attack were given, then disregarded as the Germans struck south instead, towards Yugoslavia and Greece. Plus, Hitler assured Stalin of his friendship and that he totaly wasn't attacking.
---------
4. Stalin did plan to attack Germany too, but waited for an opportunity, such as a second front in the West. He wasn't building 100k tanks and airplanes for a parade, when Germany had 3k each. Still, he would have liked to rebuild the military and integrate the conquered lands.

1.True - that is why replacing those units with army mean coming soviet attack.During next few weeks,to be precise.
2.Only partially true - in Poland conspiracy was almost completly destroyed by soviets,to the point that it must be rebuild later under german occupation.
Soviets were much better then germans in destroing population will to fight.
3.And sralin never belived Hitler - but he knew,that german army is using fuel and lubricant for weapons which do not worked during winter/in 1941 germans could not use HMG as result/ - so he do not belived that they would attack.
4.Yes,initially he planned to wait for few years - BUT,France capitulated ,so he must work with what he had.