Versus Match Star Trek vs Star Wars

S'task

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Yeah, that would be a bit iffy.

Still, it might have local disruption effects, like making it difficult for a fleeing ship to escape into hyperspace.
That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. It would make fighting a proper Romulan wolf pack a terrifying thing for an Imperial ship. Not only would they be getting attacked by ships they can't see until they're getting fired upon and then almost immediately losing track of them, but they also couldn't escape them for an unknown reason because of the near constant gravity disruptions coming and going.

Of course, the Romulans are the one power I would actually say could take down a ISD 1 v 1. Of course, they do that by cheating the hell out of the encounter and depending totally on sabotage and subterfuge rather than a stand up fight. We've seen ISDs get infiltrated all the time by the Rebels in the various media, and infiltration, sabotage, and subterfuge are the Romulan's bread and butter. An unsuspecting ISD, a cloaked warbird, a few beamed in infiltration teams, a few captured prisoners, and a few well placed bombs and a beamed out exfiltration team, and the ISD goes up like a torch and the Warbird leaves with nobody the wiser as to what happened.
 

The Original Sixth

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Well, you have hyper space "jammer" craft in the universe as well, those star destroyers with really big bulges. The difficulty with messing with hyperdrive ships is not so much the principles, but having enough raw energy to, well, create planetary scale effects. The Imperial system for it, an Immobilzer 418 cruiser, is a bit bigger than a Galaxy D class vessel, which it is my understanding represented a significant investment for the federation.

You'd be mistaken in this case. The UFP can actually generate a great deal of gravitational power with relatively smaller devices.

One other issue I'm wondering is if the need to map hyperspace routs is actually relevant to the scale being discussed.

Yes, yes it does.

The hyperspace routs seem to be most relevant for the very long range galaxy wide trips Star Wars, where your talking about 1,000 light year+ jumps. Naboo to Coresaunt for example, seems to be a 50-100k light year trip.

Because it's effectively existing infrastructure. A car still needs a road to travel effectively, even if back home they have a massive interstate system that means you can travel around in days.

The federation seems to be under a 1,000 light years across, generally. For jumps from solar system to solar system, I'm not sure that all that extensive mapping is necessary, which can still be done at pretty high speed.

Is there something like a good estimate on the actual size of the Federation? A lot of this analysis is partially dependent upon how much space the Federation really has to work with.

The most canon map is the one I've already posted. It gives the size in the far right, as well as the population.

In short, the Empire will undoubtedly need to map those locations. It will be far easier than mapping a very long or large route as we see in SW, but it must still be done.


That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. It would make fighting a proper Romulan wolf pack a terrifying thing for an Imperial ship. Not only would they be getting attacked by ships they can't see until they're getting fired upon and then almost immediately losing track of them, but they also couldn't escape them for an unknown reason because of the near constant gravity disruptions coming and going.

Of course, the Romulans are the one power I would actually say could take down a ISD 1 v 1. Of course, they do that by cheating the hell out of the encounter and depending totally on sabotage and subterfuge rather than a stand up fight. We've seen ISDs get infiltrated all the time by the Rebels in the various media, and infiltration, sabotage, and subterfuge are the Romulan's bread and butter. An unsuspecting ISD, a cloaked warbird, a few beamed in infiltration teams, a few captured prisoners, and a few well placed bombs and a beamed out exfiltration team, and the ISD goes up like a torch and the Warbird leaves with nobody the wiser as to what happened.

I think it more likely a Romulan Warbird will drop on them with a cloak, guns blazing. The Warbird actually has some seriously heavy disruptor cannons, 20 GWs. That's more than enough to give any ISD a very bad day. I'd argue the same for Klingon Neg'Var and K'Tinga Class as well. Without that drop...the ISD will probably still take a beating, but I expect that Warbird to get chewed at the very least.
 

S'task

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is a bit bigger than a Galaxy D class vessel, which it is my understanding represented a significant investment for the federation.
The investment in a Galaxy class is more in the experienced crew, not the hulls. The Federation was throwing around a lot of Galaxy hulled ships in the Dominion War.

Power also isn't really a concern, nor is being able to channel it, the Navigational Deflectors on Starships are tied directly to the warp cores of the vessels, which are matter/anti-matter reaction cores, which means they generate a LOT of power. Building a dedicated interdiction ship for the Federation is probably not as massive an investment as you think, as they have all the prerequisite tech to do so, just no need because Trek Warp drive isn't impacted the same way by gravity wells as Hyperspace is. Oh, it IS impacted by them, don't get me wrong, but combine warp drive with stellar scale gravity wells doesn't result in the warp drive not working... it results in time travel...
 

The Original Sixth

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The investment in a Galaxy class is more in the experienced crew, not the hulls. The Federation was throwing around a lot of Galaxy hulled ships in the Dominion War.

Power also isn't really a concern, nor is being able to channel it, the Navigational Deflectors on Starships are tied directly to the warp cores of the vessels, which are matter/anti-matter reaction cores, which means they generate a LOT of power. Building a dedicated interdiction ship for the Federation is probably not as massive an investment as you think, as they have all the prerequisite tech to do so, just no need because Trek Warp drive isn't impacted the same way by gravity wells as Hyperspace is. Oh, it IS impacted by them, don't get me wrong, but combine warp drive with stellar scale gravity wells doesn't result in the warp drive not working... it results in time travel...

Well, time travel is a best case result. Probably more often you get thrown out of warp and suffer heavy damage.
 

S'task

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I think it more likely a Romulan Warbird will drop on them with a cloak, guns blazing. The Warbird actually has some seriously heavy disruptor cannons, 20 GWs. That's more than enough to give any ISD a very bad day. I'd argue the same for Klingon Neg'Var and K'Tinga Class as well. Without that drop...the ISD will probably still take a beating, but I expect that Warbird to get chewed at the very least.
Depends on the mission the Romulans are undertaking. If they're going to intel gathering, they'll never leave cloak and just steal everything they can before destroying the target. If they're going hunter-killer, yeah, the cloaked ambush with all guns blazing is more common.

That said, I do think we have to take how the Romulans fought in the Dominion War with some grains of salt. The D'Deridex Warbird was clearly not designed for standing engagements, but were forced to have to do so in the Dominion War due to how the Federation and Klingon fleets operated, thus forcing them into engagements that were not exactly on their design profile. The more obvious tactics for the Romulans to use, especially including their smaller ships, is cloak strafing as they did in "Balance of Terror" preferably with a small fleet. The Imperials have no good counter to Trek cloaking technology and while they could just try and saturate space with weapons fire, that's not an unknown tactic (I mean... again, that's one of the first things Kirk tried when facing down the Romulan BoP in "Balance of Terror" and also a tactic used by Picard in "Nemesis"...) so they know to expect it and likely have doctrinal counters to it.

But regardless, this is getting into a derail, the Romulan's aren't exactly one of the main combatants in this right now, just the Feddies. :p
 
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To come in here with a very milquetoast and middle of the road comment, I think the issue is that in the past the Star Wars faction would selectively promote a very, very maximalist view of Star Wars and push a very, very minimalist view of Star Trek. Both franchises have gigaton-scale weaponry and times that main battery fire produces less effect than some Syrian rebel's Hell Cannon on troops standing nearby a detonation. It really comes down to strategic mobility and numbers. Superficially, the Empire has huge advantages in both, but strategic mobility seems a wash without extensive recon to build routes first. That leaves numbers, and that really begs the question of whether or not the Empire really had massive Ansel Hsiao-type strategic reserve fleets of very heavy ships which simply did nothing during the civil war because of a lack of targets...
 

The Original Sixth

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To come in here with a very milquetoast and middle of the road comment, I think the issue is that in the past the Star Wars faction would selectively promote a very, very maximalist view of Star Wars and push a very, very minimalist view of Star Trek. Both franchises have gigaton-scale weaponry and times that main battery fire produces less effect than some Syrian rebel's Hell Cannon on troops standing nearby a detonation. It really comes down to strategic mobility and numbers. Superficially, the Empire has huge advantages in both, but strategic mobility seems a wash without extensive recon to build routes first. That leaves numbers, and that really begs the question of whether or not the Empire really had massive Ansel Hsiao-type strategic reserve fleets of very heavy ships which simply did nothing during the civil war because of a lack of targets...

Yeah, that did happen.

Star Wars is a behemoth though, there is no denying that. The ST powers, aside from maybe the Dominion or the Borg, can only really hope to hold off an invasion, simply by making it too painful. They probably couldn't meaningfully alter the Empire itself.
 

Scottty

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Ah, those old debates.
The Warzies would go on and on inflating the power of their turdo-lasers, while seemingly ignoring pretty much everything else.
Weapon accuracy? Firing rate? Targeting range? None of that seemed to matter to them.

Point out that a Federation starship could drop out of warp on the underneath side of an ISD, pop off a volley of photon torps right into that ventral hanger-bay, and warp away again before the ISD could even bring its guns around?
They'd just accuse one of trolling.
 

S'task

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Yeah, that did happen.

Star Wars is a behemoth though, there is no denying that. The ST powers, aside from maybe the Dominion or the Borg, can only really hope to hold off an invasion, simply by making it too painful. They probably couldn't meaningfully alter the Empire itself.
Ehh, meaningfully alter via conventional means? Certainly.

But unconventional means via espionage and supporting rebellion in the Empire? That's a hole 'nother ball of wax. A few industrial replicators, cloaking devices, phasers, and tricorders would give the Rebellion some significant advantages over the Empire by freeing up logistics, letting them move even more freely, and getting them considerable ground based intel and firepower/flexibility advantages. Also if they can smuggle over some Trek sensor suites to install on Rebel ships that would be yet another advantage.

For reference consider this: nothing necessarily stops a Trek replicator from being able to synthesize bacta (though if the Trek goodies included Trek medical tech, the Rebels might not even need bacta anymore) or the various gasses used in SW blasters, or even the basic fuel for their ships, so long as they have energy and some mass to reorder, replicators would fundamentally alter the Rebellion's logistics train to a near unimaginable degree. That frees up the Rebellion from a lot of logistics issues that is suffers, having to raid for fuel, having to convince companies to supply weapons and arms and the like. That's a huge alteration to the status quo in the SW Galaxy that could be accomplished with fairly little effort by the Federation.
 

JagerIV

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The most canon map is the one I've already posted. It gives the size in the far right, as well as the population.

Ah. A bit higher population than I expected, much, much smaller than I expected.

Your talking about a mere 50 light years to earth. And basically all the important bits of the federation are in that 50 light year radius sphere (Earth, Vulcan, the other founding members).

This contains only about 130 star systems with a bright enough star to be, well, nice to live around. Now, there are about 1,400 star systems, but a lot of those are brown dwarfs. They may have facilities, outposts, and other such things which make them not totally ignorable, but they're probably not likely to be major hubs.

The tiny number of places that need to be surveyed makes me think hyperspace really isn't going to be a huge problem: most of the jumps they're going to be doing are exceedingly close ranged: even before things are fully explored, just charting out a very conservative path (say, jumping to the edge of a star system, surveying where everything is, then jumping to the edge of the next one, excertera) is only going to be, well, maybe six days to earth?

Hell, the distance involved may be short enough that simple telescope and gravitational readings from the wormhole may be enough to figure out a direct rout to earth (its possible that there might just be a perfectly clear line of site jump that can be done to earth itself: with the distances involved there's only really likely to be maybe 1-2 stars in the way: there may simply be no large objects between earth and the starting point at all at such relatively short galactic distances).

With such a small area to explore, you could probably well map things out pretty quickly with one Star Destroyer fleet (a star destroyer plus support vessels) Especially if you equipped it with FTL capable fighters. Plus, well, Droid spam. With only about 200 star systems to really focus on, that's probably well within the capacity of a Star Destroyer to spam.

So, I think getting a clear hyperspace rout figured out isn't really going to be that big of an issue. The distances involved are just too short. Plus of course there's the issue that a lot of this sphere is already explored: its probably not going to be hard for the Empire to find someone with a fairly complete star chart: I mean, every random freighter who finds themselves in such an unfortunate position to be captured by the Imperials probably has a huge wealth of astrological information, which can serve as a major building block for Imperial mapping.

Star Fleet has basically zero strategic depth against Star War's hyperdrive here: the distances are near instantly transversable by the hyperdrive, and the distances are so short that nothing but local short range jumps are really necessary, and the number of targets that need to be surveyed is so small that whatever level of "field engineering" is necessary is almost certainly well within the capacity of basically a single Star Destroyer. The imperial bureaucracy approving the deployment of a team of, whatever they would be called, hyper space mappers? Is probably going to be more of a time delay for the Empire than actually figuring out a safe rout to Earth. Assuming this is beyond the capacity of the standard navigation team for a star destroyer, which I'm not sure would be a reasonable assumption.

Edit:

and ignoring the Federation interfering in various ways with the Empire performing a leisurely, throughow by the books star mapping. That could delay things further: destroying the drones before they get the chance to collect a lot of data, maybe hacking one to purposefully provide bad Intel, Destroying any explorer craft, messing with gravity and such, exectera.

Plus there does seems to be a difference between "charted rout" and "totally safe" routs. Maybe something like the difference between a well pathed and smoothed highway vs a quickly built dirt road through the forest.

Though normally things going wrong with the rout seem to result in the craft being pulled out of hyperspace, rather than destruction.

Edit 2: 8/16

Secondly, on the scale variation.

The Federation is listed above to have a population of a little under a Trillion. Coresant itself has a listed population of over a trillion. Coresant thus, as a single planet (admittedly the capital), has more people than the entire federation. A couple trillion is a reasonable number for a city planet, due to population density.

Coresant is not the only city planet in the Galactic Empire. A previous spacebattles thread said the EU Empire had a population estimate of about 100 quadrillion, or 100,000 Trillion. This is is probably a good idea of the scale difference between the two - 100,000 - 1. The economic scale is probably a little bit less lopsided in favor of the Empire, since there's a lot of poor areas of the galaxy, though an overall average is pretty difficult to actually determine.

But, the scale difference does make Federation resistance, difficult. The Empire wouldn't necessarily even have to do much: for example, on Earth, a fairly well controlled and survailed place, there were still some 200 pirate attacks. Lets say, for ease of numbers, that this involves a 1,000 people. Lets say this is a rate of 1,000 Pirates per 10 Billion people. If only this many people were pirates as a ratio in the Star Wars Galaxy, then this suggests you have 100,000 Pirates per trillion people, 100 million per quadrillion. So even based on our rate, there would be an estimated 10 Billion pirates in the Star War's galaxy. Given how much more lawless parts of the Star War's galaxy is, and how much easier piracy is, I wouldn't be shocked if there were nearly a trillion or more full time pirates, and an even larger number of part time ones (say, a salvage ship that is generally legitimate, but sometimes salvages something that's not quite free game).

So, as an example of what the Empire could do if they can't deploy enough forces to outright conquer, they could simply set up the beach head, and declare that everything outside their border outlaw: outside the law of the Empire. Let pirates and mercenaries strip the federation of valuable equipment, setting up an Imperial base to buy all the valuable things, and maybe set bounties for certain things: for example, if you learn the name of a brilliant scientist in some field your interested in, you can set a bounty and let a bobba fet or somesuch grad them for you. This way, Empire commitment is minimized, you draw some pirates and nardowells out to bug someone else, and get most of the main advantages of conquest anyways: the technology, extremely educated slave labor, more ships, exautic materials: the extent of the pirate activity is only limited by how profitable piracy can be made in the Federation.

You can even use this to go the Norman option if the piracy and ambitious warlords are damaging and demoralizing enough: keep open the possibility to bring planets from "outlaw" status to "inlaw" status: at the lowest level, extracting protection money from planets, at best getting them to agree to annexation. Try to negotiate planet by planet instead of federation wide.

Occasional attacks into Federation space, say limited one system offenses, would further degrade the federations ability to prevent the pirates from threatening federation worlds, drawing in fleets and assets off anti piracy patrols to fight the major battle.

But, once again, extracting tributes and annexing a couple of worlds will net probably 90% of the benefit of outright conquest.

And you can add to this another thing that the Star War's galaxy can do thanks to the immense disparity: just flood it with migrants. Many of the Federation worlds have such low populations that outnumbering them with new colonists would be pretty trivial to achieve. This would help to undermine Federation unity and complicate its ability to control its own space.

All of these are the long and slow options that seem pretty impossible to fight effectively. Of course, that "long term" is going to be a bit of a problem: unlike the Muslims or Romans in spain, who used similar tactics to conquer that difficult terrain over a hundred or so year campaign, the Empire doesn't actually have a 100 years to slowly annex the area through a long campaign of piracy and steady subjugation.
 
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Yokkiziikzekker

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Does SW have anything like The Borg? I feel like the Borg would fuck up anything in SW with trivial ease, if not necessarily due to any particularly OsOM power gap but just because how utterly relentless, methodical and machine-like logic and reason they use as opposed to SW which is more 'woo woo' and more suited to fighting more 'woo woo' ideological villains
 

The Original Sixth

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Does SW have anything like The Borg? I feel like the Borg would fuck up anything in SW with trivial ease, if not necessarily due to any particularly OsOM power gap but just because how utterly relentless, methodical and machine-like logic and reason they use as opposed to SW which is more 'woo woo' and more suited to fighting more 'woo woo' ideological villains

The Borg aren't involved in this scenario.
 

Scottty

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Does SW have anything like The Borg? I feel like the Borg would fuck up anything in SW with trivial ease, if not necessarily due to any particularly OsOM power gap but just because how utterly relentless, methodical and machine-like logic and reason they use as opposed to SW which is more 'woo woo' and more suited to fighting more 'woo woo' ideological villains

If any factions from the StarWars galaxy start exploring the Trek galaxy at random, they will sooner or later either encounter the Borg, or learn about them.
 

Husky_Khan

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If any factions from the StarWars galaxy start exploring the Trek galaxy at random, they will sooner or later either encounter the Borg, or learn about them.

Alpha and Beta Quadrant didn't encounter them until the mid 24th century though. And no whiff of them from the Dominion/Gamma Quadrant either AFAIK.
 

Scottty

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Alpha and Beta Quadrant didn't encounter them until the mid 24th century though. And no whiff of them from the Dominion/Gamma Quadrant either AFAIK.

That we are told about. But in TNG and following, there are obviously Borg on the loose in the Federation area of the galaxy - Hugh can tell.
 

Husky_Khan

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I can't believe this was the oldest thread in the whole forum, buried under so many Carl Manverings.

Now it's the latest thread in the whole forum. :cool:
 

Sailor.X

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I am just gonna say it now within a years time the Empire will be infiltrated and nerfed by Changelings. Every Moff, Ship Captain and major General will be a Dominion operative. Then Super Happy Fun Time happens in the Star Wars Galaxy. The Dominion will see the Empire as the primary major threat and deal with them.
 

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