Versus Match Star Trek vs Star Wars

[The Original Sixth]

The Galactic Empire, two years before the Empire launches the Death Star, discovers a wormhole on the edge of Federation and Cardassian Space. They begin an invasion. This occurs just before the Dominion War in Star Trek.

Sources:
Star Wars -- Disney and Real Cannon (Legends), but keep it reasonable
Star Trek -- TV/Movie and Technical/Field Manuals, but keep it reasonable

Yes, we're really doing this.

 

[LTR]

So quickly do we abandon Versus Forum Opening Post Guidelines...

 

[The Original Sixth]

Those guidelines only served to undermine new posters.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

So quickly do we abandon Versus Forum Opening Post Guidelines...

Well they were crap

 

[Battlegrinder]

What time is this as far as ST goes? It doesn't really matter for SW, but earily TNG era starfleet is a very differant force than late TNG, and by late DS9/Voyager it's even more different.


Hm, come to think of it, I wonder if there's ever been a book set in the post DS9 era where a ship from right before TNG winds up there because of time travel or something. It'd be an awesome way to contrast the two eras together.

 

[LTR]

What time is this as far as ST goes? It doesn't really matter for SW, but earily TNG era starfleet is a very differant force than late TNG, and by late DS9/Voyager it's even more different.


Hm, come to think of it, I wonder if there's ever been a book set in the post DS9 era where a ship from right before TNG winds up there because of time travel or something. It'd be an awesome way to contrast the two eras together.

Darn if only someone in the OP could provide such basic information from the beginning so we wouldn't have to ask such perfunctory and basic questions...

 

[The Original Sixth]

What time is this as far as ST goes? It doesn't really matter for SW, but earily TNG era starfleet is a very differant force than late TNG, and by late DS9/Voyager it's even more different.


Hm, come to think of it, I wonder if there's ever been a book set in the post DS9 era where a ship from right before TNG winds up there because of time travel or something. It'd be an awesome way to contrast the two eras together.

Sorry, good point. I'd guess just before the breakout of the Dominion War

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

Darn if only someone in the OP could provide such basic information from the beginning so we wouldn't have to ask such perfunctory and basic questions...

That's half the fun in a versus debate.

 

[LTR]

That's half the fun in a versus debate.

Don't be basic...

 

[The Original Sixth]

I think it's obvious the Federation would stall out any invasion by the Empire.

 

[Harlock]

Already our standards have slipped, four hours, gotta be a record

 

[Emperor Tippy]

I think it's obvious the Federation would stall out any invasion by the Empire.

If the Federation gets to use plot device technology, probably.

But scale, FTL speed, and yields all favor the Empire.

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

Don't be basic...

I may be a bitch, but I ain't basic. I simply enjoy more organic discussions.

 

[The Original Sixth]

If the Federation gets to use plot device technology, probably.

But scale, FTL speed, and yields all favor the Empire.

I disagree, I think the Empire will have issues with power projection. Indeed, the invasion is likely not to be well coordinated because of poor officer training and culture that promotes political social climbers over competent commanders.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Well, define "reasonable", because there is plenty of things even when not taken to the absurd that a reasonable person could abuse. Such as sending a strong willed person into the Nexus, I'd say using a shuttle craft plus a spacesuit to ensure their survival. The Federation can then have this person go back in time, and warn them of the Empire's coming, so that they can set a trap.

Or, the Federation can just make everything out of whatever those boxes are made of.

Though I am not saying that the Federation will do this, but this is the sort of thing a "reasonable person" might do with what the Federation has available.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Well, define "reasonable", because there is plenty of things even when not taken to the absurd that a reasonable person could abuse. Such as sending a strong willed person into the Nexus, I'd say using a shuttle craft plus a spacesuit to ensure their survival. The Federation can then have this person go back in time, and warn them of the Empire's coming, so that they can set a trap.

Or, the Federation can just make everything out of whatever those boxes are made of.

Though I am not saying that the Federation will do this, but this is the sort of thing a "reasonable person" might do with what the Federation has available.

That all seems unreasonable. We're looking for how they act reliably in wwr time.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

That all seems unreasonable. We're looking for how they act reliably in wwr time.

Good. This is the sort of clarification that is needed. How it is by nature unreasonable? I don't think it is, and that is why I asked, because all sorts of crazy things could be considered reasonable based on the standpoint you are looking from. I was thinking of how a real person who likes Star Trek, but isn't a big fan might think.

So on how they would act in war time. Well, off the top of my head I'd figure that Section 31 and the above board intelligence of the Federation would try to get into contact with the Rebels and other enemies of the Empire. After all getting the Empire into a two-front war would be advantageous to both the Feds and the Rebels et al. And the Cardies would be even more willing to play dirty, and so are the Romuluans.

As I remember pretty sure the Federation has backed rebel movements during war time.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I think it's obvious the Federation would stall out any invasion by the Empire.

Federation vs empire, in a vacuum.....maybe. In this scenario, no, not likely. Even assuming generally equal firepower ton for ton, the empire just has more tons and more ships, with greater FTL speed, and the federation can't easily devote resources to trying to fight the empire without compromising thier other commitments. They're already skirmishing with the Klingons and need at least some forces there to at least hold the line, and if they move too many ships in they're likely going to have dominion ships come pouring out of the wormhole, so they also need a force there to keep guard. Presuming the Empire is halfway sane and aim for just the federation (or just the cardies) rather than trying to attack the entire quadrant at once, they could easily cause enough damage to force the federation to sue for peace, if not just flat out conquer them.

I disagree, I think the Empire will have issues with power projection. Indeed, the invasion is likely not to be well coordinated because of poor officer training and culture that promotes political social climbers over competent commanders.

That sounds like just a biased sample set, though. Yeah, the empire has a fair number of terrible officers, but they've got a decent number of good ones too. Even in the more cartoonish bits of Disney canon, the average level of capability seemed alright, with a few geniuses and a few fools mixed in.

Saying the empire's officers are poor as a whole just doesn't seem to fit the evidence, any more than saying all the federation admirals are nuts and incompetant just because we see a whole bunch of them that are.

EDIT:

Well, off the top of my head I'd figure that Section 31 and the above board intelligence of the Federation would try to get into contact with the Rebels and other enemies of the Empire.

And....then what? Like, they could maybe help a bit, trade technologies and the like, but they don't have anything that's going to be an outright game changer. Transporters and the like, while useful, are sill blocked by shields and we've known for ages that anything that's important to the empire has a shield in place.

After all getting the Empire into a two-front war would be advantageous to both the Feds and the Rebels et al.

The empire is already engaged in a two front war. Well, one front and one insurgency, but you get the idea.

And the Cardies would be even more willing to play dirty, and so are the Romuluans.

The cardies are too busy getting their butts kicked by the Klingons, and while the Romulans will play dirty, they have no particular reason to do so on behalf of the federation. Remember, when the dominion invaded, they just signed a non-aggression pact and let the feds deal with it themselves, and the Empire is arguably less malevolent than the dominion.

 

[S'task]

Even assuming generally equal firepower ton for ton, the empire just has more tons and more ships, with greater FTL speed, and the federation can't easily devote resources to trying to fight the empire without compromising thier other commitments.

Is it though? Given that the Empire is invading through a wormhole it means they can only bring over a limited number of ships at a time. Further, the Empire doesn't appear to have any intel on strategic knowledge of the Milky Way powers.

Further, my understanding of Hyperspace is such that for it to be very fast it needs pre-charted paths, something the Empire will also lack, limiting their blitz potential in the early periods. In fact, the initial period is going to be mostly the Empire pushing in blind, without any knowledge of the political situation of the Milky Way and very limited methods to gather intel.

On the flip side, the Federation will have a much easier time gathering intel due to Trek's ridiculously superior sensor technology. They also don't have the issue of having to figure out the political lay of the land, they're just dealing with a single hostile invader who, while faster and with potentially more powerful shield and weapons, isn't actually an outside context problem for the Federation to consider (how is the Galactic Empire much different than the Borg in this scenario from a strategic sense?).

There's also an open question on how well the Empire can even bring to bear it's superior firepower. Trek ships are very fast and maneuverable for their size compared to Star Destroyers and the like, and the Empire clearly uses volume of fire to make up for accuracy. While one on one a Trek Cruiser likely would lose against a Star Destroyer, a wolf pack of Birds of Prey or other similar sized ships (Saber class, Defiant class, etc.) would play merry hell on a Star Destroyer given their maneuverability. They would be able to whittle them down over time and while the Star Destroyer could hyperspace away it would have to fall back away from the engagement, not continue to press forward since it would lack the navigation charts to do so. The Empire's fighter craft would likely be... a non-factor. TIE Fighters, which are the vast bulk of their forces, lack even basic protective shields which means that any Phaser could take them out, and Trek phasers are much more accurate than Turbolasers based on on screen showings. Heavier TIEs might be more of a threat, but those have very limited production runs.

If the Federation can act quickly and decisively early on, concentrate their forces while the Empire is still figuring out where to hit the Federation, they might actually be able to bottle up the Empire at the wormhole and then proceed to use that as a choke point, or simply collapse the wormhole. Trek sensors are definitely up the the task of backtracking and figuring out a wormhole is involved, and there's a multitude of different ways to collapse a wormhole in Trek.

 

[Flintsteel]

If the Federation gets to use plot device technology, probably.

But scale, FTL speed, and yields all favor the Empire.

with greater FTL speed

Why do people always forget that SW hyperdrive, while extremely fast, required well-mapped and established routes?

There are multiple instances that heavily imply hyper-routes can take years to map and establish. In a completely new galaxy that hasn't been being mapped for thirty thousand years, we have absolutely no idea how fast hyperdrive will actually be.