Successful Irish Rebellion In 1798

[stevep]

Well,it was my repetition of your sad joke about reactionary aristocracy.Those dudes were Enlightened,and that is why France fall - only peasant fought for King.

And, England could mobilize army - but who would pay for that? When France only need to send some fast ships with guns and maybe muskets.Food and recruits would be there.

It would be bloody war without hope for quick victory.England would not go for it,if France do not attack neighbours anymore.



Yes,they could.Problem is - it still do not bring quick victory.They could,at best,retake part of island.
P.S in mentioned article Free Ireland would be not catholic state,so local protestants would support it,too.
One of them in this scenario even becomed irish President !

Ignoring the obvious delusions about the French revolution then:
a) Such an action would mean war with Britain which France can't afford.
b) Britain would be forced to fight because it couldn't afford Ireland as a French puppet on its western approaches.
c) It needs a lot more than a few muskets and powder, which would only last a short while anyway. As pointed out artillery isn't something that can easily be supported in Ireland without continued external aid. Also are you sure that an Ireland, even without an ongoing war, can feed itself?
d) Some Protestants supported, and even played a leading role in the rebellion. How long that would have lasted and how many are important questions.

 

[ATP]

Ignoring the obvious delusions about the French revolution then:
a) Such an action would mean war with Britain which France can't afford.
b) Britain would be forced to fight because it couldn't afford Ireland as a French puppet on its western approaches.
c) It needs a lot more than a few muskets and powder, which would only last a short while anyway. As pointed out artillery isn't something that can easily be supported in Ireland without continued external aid. Also are you sure that an Ireland, even without an ongoing war, can feed itself?
d) Some Protestants supported, and even played a leading role in the rebellion. How long that would have lasted and how many are important questions.

1.And England could not afford long war,too
2.That is why they agree to free Irish republic lead by irish protestant.
3.Not easy,but they manage.And about food - patatoes.
4.In this scenario,they supported it,becouse England and France agreed to neutral Ireland lead by protestant.Wolfe or sometching.

 

[edgeworthy]

Your one of those people who suffer from what I call the god delusion. That your an Abrahamic type deity that can warp reality to your desires. No your not. . There's a short story by the late Canadian writer Gordon R Dickson, in his "Ancient my Enemy" collection, called Tiger Green. I would suggest you read it but I doubt you have the capacity to understand it.

Try referencing the Stars and Stripes Trilogy. Its actually a worse What If, to being considered the definition of a Wank!

 

[stevep]

Try referencing the Stars and Stripes Trilogy. Its actually a worse What If, to being considered the definition of a Wank!

Very true. Definitely wankish and some astonishing howlers there. However Tiger Green is a good story. It just points out the advantages of an open over a closed mindset.

 

[stevep]

1.And England could not afford long war,too
2.That is why they agree to free Irish republic lead by irish protestant.
3.Not easy,but they manage.And about food - patatoes.
4.In this scenario,they supported it,becouse England and France agreed to neutral Ireland lead by protestant.Wolfe or sometching.

1) 1793-1815, albeit with a small break in 1801-03. Which they were already several years into at the point of the historical uprising.

2) They didn't OTL and definitely have incentives not to here - especially given the failure of your point 1.

3) Potatoes can only do so much. Not to mention the effects of a war and of a blockade of rebel areas.

4) You would wish they supported it.

 

[ATP]

1) 1793-1815, albeit with a small break in 1801-03. Which they were already several years into at the point of the historical uprising.

2) They didn't OTL and definitely have incentives not to here - especially given the failure of your point 1.

3) Potatoes can only do so much. Not to mention the effects of a war and of a blockade of rebel areas.

4) You would wish they supported it.

1.When they have aggresive France to stop and cannon fodder of other monarchs who must defend themselves.Now,they would be alone - and if choose to fight France alone it would end in french invasion.
Other Kings do not supported England becouse they loved them,but becouse they do not have choice for peace without french domination.

2.They do not agree to Irish republic,becouse french failed to take island.When Island arleady would be in french hands,and they agree to leave it in hands of protestant president,England would agree.

3.Entire Ireland would be rebel area.Blocking entire island is impossible.And patatoes there was able to feed 8M of people.

4.My friend,mine or yours wisches do not matter.None of us is God.
What is important,that irish protestants supported indopendence,as long as papist would not rule.
Which would happen here.President would be protestant.

 

[stevep]

1.When they have aggresive France to stop and cannon fodder of other monarchs who must defend themselves.Now,they would be alone - and if choose to fight France alone it would end in french invasion.
Other Kings do not supported England becouse they loved them,but becouse they do not have choice for peace without french domination.

2.They do not agree to Irish republic,becouse french failed to take island.When Island arleady would be in french hands,and they agree to leave it in hands of protestant president,England would agree.

3.Entire Ireland would be rebel area.Blocking entire island is impossible.And patatoes there was able to feed 8M of people.

4.My friend,mine or yours wisches do not matter.None of us is God.
What is important,that irish protestants supported indopendence,as long as papist would not rule.
Which would happen here.President would be protestant.

1) Which scenario are you taking about here - the historical one of the aggressive France under the republic or the alternative you suggest of Bourbon France waging a war they can't afford? Don't forget this rebellion only occurred because the monarchy had fallen in France, inspiring the rebels and also France was at war with the UK.

2) Your assuming the French could take the entire island and then manage to hold it in the face of British naval superiority and the greater need of Britain to deny France control of the island.

3) I suspect at least the bulk of the Ulster region and the area around Dublin where the main British presence was would stay outside French hands, especially given how easily they could be reinforced from Britain. Also its strange that you think a navy used to blockading both France and Spain with a large measure of success couldn't blockade a much smaller island like Ireland which is a lot closer to them than Spain or the Med coast of France

4) Some Irish Protestants supported independence. Most did not.

 

[ATP]

1) Which scenario are you taking about here - the historical one of the aggressive France under the republic or the alternative you suggest of Bourbon France waging a war they can't afford? Don't forget this rebellion only occurred because the monarchy had fallen in France, inspiring the rebels and also France was at war with the UK.

2) Your assuming the French could take the entire island and then manage to hold it in the face of British naval superiority and the greater need of Britain to deny France control of the island.

3) I suspect at least the bulk of the Ulster region and the area around Dublin where the main British presence was would stay outside French hands, especially given how easily they could be reinforced from Britain. Also its strange that you think a navy used to blockading both France and Spain with a large measure of success couldn't blockade a much smaller island like Ireland which is a lot closer to them than Spain or the Med coast of France

4) Some Irish Protestants supported independence. Most did not.

1.I speak about scenario from mentioned book - where France after revolution wonted peace,but England not,so they take Ireland from them as bargaing chip.

2.Yes,they could brits do not have real army there.

3.Maybe some strongholds would hold,but most would fall.And,they could blockade to their hear content after french send enough muskets there.

4.Enough to made opposition impossible.

P.S Fun thing - book is compilation scenarios about what Napoleon could do better - with one exception.
First chapter about France capturing Ireland in 1798,making peace with entire Europe,England agree becouse there was no cannonfodder on Continent who want die for them,and Napoleon retired from army meet also retired Nelson and start drinking over their shared misery =- lasting peace.

It seems,that you would join them,becouse for some reason you want Napoleon war in Europe no matter what happened !

 

[edgeworthy]

Try referencing the Stars and Stripes Trilogy. Its actually a worse What If, to being considered the definition of a Wank!

Very true. Definitely wankish and some astonishing howlers there. However Tiger Green is a good story. It just points out the advantages of an open over a closed mindset.

Have we ever done a thread on that one?

There's a good review of part one (On another site that some may have issues with) that ends with the reviewer screaming at the author to "Do some bloody research!"

 

[stevep]

Have we ever done a thread on that one?

There's a good review of part one (On another site that some may have issues with) that ends with the reviewer screaming at the author to "Do some bloody research!"

If you mean Tiger Green probably not as its a short story which probably isn't widely known. The basic plot is that an Earth ship has landed on a planet in another system and the crew seems to be plagued with madness and insanity. There are attempts of suicide and delusional behaviour. Most of the crew are incapacitated and only a couple, exhausted and angry are left on their feet and struggling to continue.

It turns out the that local population they have encountered are both brilliant bio-chemists and also having never considered the idea of anywhere existing outside their own world - I forget if there was a reason given for this - refuse to accept that anywhere outside their conceived universe, which is basically their world, could exist. As such their trying to cure the humans of their perceived insanity by biologically trying to change their minds.

It basically ends with one of the humans realising that and also that the most stubborn humans are the ones still active and confronts the aliens. The fact that the humans are resisting and confronting them with a reality that they can't accept forces the aliens to give up their 'cure'. The humans are given antidotes to the 'cure' for their colleagues with the understanding they will leave immediately.

The basic idea behind the story is that an open mind will always defeat a closed one because an open mind can envisage the actions of a closed one and fit that into their world view but the reverse is not possible.

 

[ATP]

I forget to mention one important thing - in Napoleon options book,England wanted peace,becouse spanish fleet come to Brest in 1797 and helped block british ships from that - which was possible,becouse daring admiral Jarvis died in 1796,and his replacment do not dare to stop spaniards.

And french landed in Ireland in late 1796.Peace happened,when brits hold only Dublin and few other places.

So,we need two changes - death of Jarvis,and succesfull french landing - and we have changed History.
Napoleon here tried putch,but almost nobody supported him,so he must run.
And meet Nelson in 1805 to drink over their shared misfortune....
In Trafalgar city.

 

[edgeworthy]

If you mean Tiger Green probably not as its a short story which probably isn't widely known. The basic plot is that an Earth ship has landed on a planet in another system and the crew seems to be plagued with madness and insanity. There are attempts of suicide and delusional behaviour. Most of the crew are incapacitated and only a couple, exhausted and angry are left on their feet and struggling to continue.

It turns out the that local population they have encountered are both brilliant bio-chemists and also having never considered the idea of anywhere existing outside their own world - I forget if there was a reason given for this - refuse to accept that anywhere outside their conceived universe, which is basically their world, could exist. As such their trying to cure the humans of their perceived insanity by biologically trying to change their minds.

It basically ends with one of the humans realising that and also that the most stubborn humans are the ones still active and confronts the aliens. The fact that the humans are resisting and confronting them with a reality that they can't accept forces the aliens to give up their 'cure'. The humans are given antidotes to the 'cure' for their colleagues with the understanding they will leave immediately.

The basic idea behind the story is that an open mind will always defeat a closed one because an open mind can envisage the actions of a closed one and fit that into their world view but the reverse is not possible.

The Stars and Stripes trilogy in comparison is an ACW what if based on the Trent Incident. Few people seem to realise just how angry the British actually were. The leading membership of the Anti-Slavery League were asking if the Americans were somehow trying to start a war.
The first book does start well, okay the opening chapter anyway, after which it descends into the Historical Accuracy of a Mel Gibson Movie, and the Lack of Consistency of Season 8 of Game of Thrones!

[The Ireland thing is particularly bad. The author coming out with an Irishman saying, and with this spelling, "Jayzus, but its a Divil of a Way!" is enough to condemn the entire work.]

I do occasionally threaten to do a review, but I don't hate myself, or anyone else, enough to put the effort in.