The Annals of Baaaaad Infantry Small Arms...

Well, that's not as bad as the idea of installing a bayonet lug on said LMGs...I get the Japanese POV, but it kind of defeats the basic purpose of an LMG, it's meant to lay down a base of fire, not get up close and stick people. If you're that close with an LMG, something has gone very, very wrong, and you're better off grabbing your pistol or a grenade.

Of course the IJA would have bayonets on their LMG's...how dare you refute the Rule of Cool, gaijin! 😎

In all seriousness, the Imperial Japanese along with the Italian Blackshirts had some rather, eh, unique POV on some of their weapons. Not to rag on the IJA again...oh who am I kidding, consider another firearm of theirs, the Arisaka Type 99.

The Type 99 in itself is actually a very sturdy rifle and quite strong, at least the early versions were anyway. In itself it wasn't a bad rifle...but it had several glaring problems.

A: For shorter-stature Japanese infantrymen, the rifle was rather long, clumsy and heavy at anywhere from 44 to 50 inches in length depending on which variant. It go especially long if one mounted the Type 30 bayonet which in itself was another 20 inches and could practically function as a machete of sorts, which wasn't a bad thing to have at all for the jungle...but bayonet fighting with something that long in a jungle environment? Probably better off using that in a banzai charge...which they often did, and we know how those usually worked out.

B: It had some rather unnecessary gadgets. A dust cover for the bolt, which fit loosely and tended to rattle and make unnecessary noise, the soldiers would often take them off or ditch them. A folding wire monopod for shooting from the prone position, again, seemed useful on paper but it was clumsy and tended to break if not careful, and again soldiers would often take them off. And the kicker, anti-aircraft sights that one was supposedly able to use to manually calculate range and speed of an aircraft with the sight markings to fire at said aircraft. Needless to say, while the use of bolt action rifles to try to down aircraft wasn't quite as uncommon as some might think, as the British infantry drilled for this when they had a lack of AA guns for some time(!), trying to purposefully build a bolt action rifle to shoot down aircraft is, erm, extremely optimistic. The gadgets in themselves were arguably a waste of materials when Japan already had shortages of vital raw materials.

C: As the war wore on to the final years the craftsmanship and quality of the rifles took a sharp downturn for obvious reasons, but didn't help the rifle regardless. Apparently they became as bad as some Mauser 98K rifles that were manufactured in the final year of Nazi Germany, hence very much last ditch weapons.
 
Of course the IJA would have bayonets on their LMG's...how dare you refute the Rule of Cool, gaijin! 😎

I shall slit open my belly and ask for repentance! :p

C: As the war wore on to the final years the craftsmanship and quality of the rifles took a sharp downturn for obvious reasons, but didn't help the rifle regardless. Apparently they became as bad as some Mauser 98K rifles that were manufactured in the final year of Nazi Germany, hence very much last ditch weapons.

That's assuming in Japan ca. 1945, you were lucky enough to get a rifle. Bamboo staves were all the rage apparently. :oops: But hey, the Germans had their Volksstumgehwehr (say that three times fast!) and it was inaccurate and had shoddy manufacturing quality, but it worked...after a fashion!
 
That's assuming in Japan ca. 1945, you were lucky enough to get a rifle. Bamboo staves were all the rage apparently. :oops: But hey, the Germans had their Volksstumgehwehr (say that three times fast!) and it was inaccurate and had shoddy manufacturing quality, but it worked...after a fashion!

Very true....and not just bamboo staves in 1945 Japan, homemade grenades consisting of black powder stuffed in clay pots, over 100-year old (if not older) muskets, farm implements, etc. etc....all the chosen weapons of the dubiously vaunted "Volunteer Fighting Corps" that would have opposed Operations Olympic and Coronet if it had gone through. I think "bloodbath" severely underestimates just how much of a slaughter it would have been, more like outright genocide.

As for the Volksstumgehwehr...that was pretty indicative of the Volkssturm in itself...another lie perpetuated by a country that had lied to itself so often it still actually somehow believed it stood a chance of victory. Personally I wish we'd captured Goebbels just to parade him at Nuremberg and humble the smug little shit before hanging him, but that's another topic...
 
Last edited:
Nobody savages the Berthier as much as it should be savaged. It started as a "stopgap weapon to arm colonial troops", which ended up being extensively used on the front line in WWI. And it only had a three round magazine, which somehow still was open at the bottom for mud to get into despite already being only a three-round design (you couldn't afford to seal the magazine when it's already that small!?). The 1916 version with the five-round en-bloc clip fixed these issues, but ... It was selected for service, and served for nine years in the original configuration.
 
The problem is that the French stuck with utterly outdated Lebel rifle for far too long, the rifle which was rushed through procurement process via political process, so they got outdated rifle for cutting edge ammo at the time.
 
The Label was not that bad it a rifle but the outdated rifle it was is why they needed soemthing new, so the MAS series came
 
My other candidate for bad infantry small arms, or at least overrated? The Dryse Needle Gun. That's right, the gun that helped the Prussian Army win in 1866:

According to the Wiki article, which is always questionable...
Considering that it was still leagues ahead of literally every other firearm used en masse by the armies of the time, the Dreyse Needle Gun is still an absolutely amazing weapon for the mid 19th century.
 
Considering that it was still leagues ahead of literally every other firearm used en masse by the armies of the time, the Dreyse Needle Gun is still an absolutely amazing weapon for the mid 19th century.


Yeah, it's important to remember that the Dreyse Needle Gun was a whole generation ahead of everything else. The first generation was the Ferguson, the Kammerlader, and Hall rifle, and of those, only the Kammerlader ever saw mass deployment to an Army. The second generation was basically the Sharps and the Dreyse Needle Gun. Both were successful weapons in the field, though the Sharps took much longer to refine and field and so had a relatively short service life in comparison.
 
Well, that's not as bad as the idea of installing a bayonet lug on said LMGs...I get the Japanese POV, but it kind of defeats the basic purpose of an LMG, it's meant to lay down a base of fire, not get up close and stick people. If you're that close with an LMG, something has gone very, very wrong, and you're better off grabbing your pistol or a grenade.

I mean, a popular Japanese marching song from that period literally had "we don't know the tactics to retreat" in its lyrics.
 
I mean, a popular Japanese marching song from that period literally had "we don't know the tactics to retreat" in its lyrics.

That ties into the claims that there was no word for "surrender" in Japanese. Which IMHO seems to have been a combination of failure-to-translate between English and Japanese, and also the twisted form of Bushido (or, Imperial Bushido, if you will) that was instituted by Imperial Japan around that time. "Cease to resist" seemed to translate better to Japanese, though how many actually did...well, history speaks for itself.
 
Okay, so now a more modern small arm, an Indian one, sadly...the INSAS. Or rather, "how to Rube Goldberg a modern small arm design and screw it up horribly."

To make a basic summary, I shall quote one of our own members, Isem.

From what I know from hearing about it on SB and my own digging, the Indians tried to make a gun based off the AK a gun which is famous for reliability and the FAL and instead got a gun that amongst other things jammed, had it's magazines break in the cold of the Himalayas, randomly went from 3 round burst to full auto, spat hot oil into the eyes of the people firing it and broke the magazines that it used. The Nepalese called it substandard (because they literally stopped working during a 10 hour battle after they overheated) and said it made their men's jobs harder meanwhile the Indians tried to say both the Nepalese and their own troops were just mishandling it. Their police force dropped the gun saying it was unreliable. And there was an inquiry by the courts into it though the DOD managed to defend it by saying that causalities couldn't be blamed on the weapon and that they were replacing it soon. In the end they abandoned it and swapped to AKs and other non homemade weapons. Oh and it was also needlessly complicated, expensive to make (significantly more expensive then an AK) and had important parts that were prone to breaking.

So in summary, not only was the gun massively more expensive, it was complete dogshit in every aspect it could be.

:oops: 😲

Now, how you Frankenstein a modern assault rifle that costs more than the weapons it would replace, is substandard quality, and for giggles actually has the magazines break and spits oil is utterly beyond my comprehension. And to top it off, the Indian DOD pretends that there's nothing wrong with the weapon whatsoever...
 
Yeah.

But the INSAS is being abandoned AFAIK for the new AK and other weapons like the Tavor and whatnot depending on the service unit.

It seems worse then the Arjun MBT for example which after a decade of teething issues is going to have a production run of an improved Mark 2 variant which is apparently pretty decent (though in addition to ten times that number of T-90's) mostly built in Russia as well.
 
Last edited:
I mean, a popular Japanese marching song from that period literally had "we don't know the tactics to retreat" in its lyrics.



Japanese marching songs are just amazing. And a nationalist sound truck will drive around your neighbourhood blaring them at 0500 if you live in Japan!
 
If you want a really bad small-arm? It’s hard to go past the Italian Breda 30. An LMG fed from a fixed side-mounted magazine reloaded with stripper clips and requiring oiling of the ammunition to facilitate proper feeding? To be used in a desert campaign, amidst all that dust and grit? :eek:
Oh, this one is hard to beat. The Breda 30 has got to be one of the top three most God-awful firearm designs to be developed by professionals and fielded by a serious army.

Needless to say, while the use of bolt action rifles to try to down aircraft wasn't quite as uncommon as some might think, as the British infantry drilled for this when they had a lack of AA guns for some time(!), trying to purposefully build a bolt action rifle to shoot down aircraft is, erm, extremely optimistic. The gadgets in themselves were arguably a waste of materials when Japan already had shortages of vital raw materials.
Meh. It's not as bad as it sounds. The AA sights were meant to be used by whole platoons at a time, with one officer shouting speed and range corrections. The platoon would fire in a volley. The intended target was the slow biplane scouts and bombers used by the Chinese, to whom volley after volley of 6.5mm Arisaka was a legitimate threat.

If you want a really bad small-arm? It’s hard to go past the Italian Breda 30. An LMG fed from a fixed side-mounted magazine reloaded with stripper clips and requiring oiling of the ammunition to facilitate proper feeding? To be used in a desert campaign, amidst all that dust and grit? :eek:
Oh, this one is hard to beat. The Breda 30 has got to be one of the top three most God-awful firearm designs to be developed by professionals and fielded by a serious army.

Needless to say, while the use of bolt action rifles to try to down aircraft wasn't quite as uncommon as some might think, as the British infantry drilled for this when they had a lack of AA guns for some time(!), trying to purposefully build a bolt action rifle to shoot down aircraft is, erm, extremely optimistic. The gadgets in themselves were arguably a waste of materials when Japan already had shortages of vital raw materials.
Meh. It's not as bad as it sounds. The AA sights were meant to be used by whole platoons at a time, with one officer shouting speed and range corrections. The platoon would fire in a volley. The intended target was the slow biplane scouts and bombers used by the Chinese, to whom volley after volley of 6.5mm Arisaka was a legitimate threat.

While there have been some good suggestions in this thread, I’m going to go with the unorthodox choice and say that one of the worst military rifles was… the M-14.

Yes. The M-14. The finest rifle of WWII, except it was developed and fielded in the Atomic Age when everyone else had learned the lessons of that war and moved on to better weapons like the G3 or the FN FAL.

But to understand just how bad the M-14 is, we need to look back to the genesis of the rifle. That would be the US Army’s Lightweight Rifle Program, an effort to find a successor to the M1 Garand. This successor would be a select-fire rifle weighing less than seven pounds and chambered in a cartridge not one bit less powerful than the .30-06. It was to replace not just the M1 Garand, but the 1918 BAR, the M1 Carbine, and the M3 submachine gun.

Yes. The Ordnance Department was serious. They wanted a do-it-all rifle that could be issued to everybody, and that rifle was going to be a magazine-fed select-fire M1 Garand. That was seriously in the program requirements. At one time, they required that the new rifle share 75% parts commonality with the existing Garand rifle.

To illustrate just how futile this idea was, let’s look at one of the prototypes that went into the Lightweight Rifle Program, entered by Winchester. Under the direction of CEO Edwin Pugsley (Yes, that Pugsley), senior Winchester engineers modified the M1 Garand with a selector switch and the ability to accept modified Browning Automatic Rifle magazines. One of those engineers had this to say about the project later:

One of his first projects at Winchester was to develop a modified M-1 capable of full-automatic fire. Sefried, Roehmer, Pugsley and Williams took the model to Aberdeen Proving Ground to demonstrate it to John Garand and a host of army brass. In honor of his position, Garand was given the first opportunity to fire the gun. Before Sefried could explain the light trigger pull and 1,000-round-per-minute cyclic rate, Garand raised the rifle to his shoulder, touched the trigger and. .. you guessed it! While the assembled dignitaries scrambled for cover, Sefried grabbed Garand and held on. He says it was the high point of his career-“to have John Garand by the ass.”

The Garand was designed from the ground up to be semi-automatic, so it had an incredibly high cyclic rate. The recoil impulse was so harsh that .30-06 ball ammunition would destroy the BAR magazine, and Winchester engineers suggested treating the magazines as disposable. M2 AP ammunition would dent the front plate so heavily that it would prevent the cartridge stack from rising after a few shots.

Parallel programs ran by Remington and Springfield Armory ran into the same problems, and it would take another twelve years of slow, iterative development to deliver the M-14. By that time, almost none of the program requirements survived. The M-14 had zero parts commonality with the M1 Garand, its select-fire capability and integral bipod were abandoned, and it was still a shitty option compared to the FN FAL and the G3.

So why did the Ordnance Department insist on developing the Garand into a select-fire rifle, when anyone who fired the damn thing could tell you it was an exercise in futility? Well, the answer has two parts.

The first part of the answer is logistical commonality. In both WWI and the interwar period, the US Army rifleman squad had one M1918 BAR and a bunch of bolt-action Springfields, and the Ordnance Department dreamed of the day when all soldiers in the rifleman squad could be issued the same weapon. It was thought that a general-issue selfloading rifle could replace both the Springfield and the BAR, but this didn’t work out. Squads still carried the BAR, sometimes two BARs, in both WWII and Korea.

But the Ordnance Department had hope. Maybe by making incremental improvements to the M1 Garand, maybe by giving it full-auto capability and a detachable magazine, America could have a weapon that could do it all, and the Rifleman squad could achieve logistical unity.

The other half of the blame falls on the broad Teutonic shoulders of those fucking Krauts who invented the FG-42. The Fallshirmjägergewehr had its shortcomings, but it was a viable automatic rifle that was controllable when fired from the shoulder. It made the Ordnance Department’s fever dream look like a tangible possibility. There is a reason why the Lightweight Rifle Program was originally a requirement for a paratrooper rifle.

Of course, the Ordnance Department and the boys at Springfield Armory could have looked at the FG-42 and realized all the compromises needed to make the damn thing work in the first place. To make automatic fire controllable in such a light rifle, you need an inline stock, plenty of room for the bolt carrier to reciprocate, and one hell of a muzzle brake on the far end. To make the rifle lightweight and handy, you need an almost hollow receiver and a short overall length.

But the bureaucrats kept demanding something conventional and inexpensive, not realizing that Garand’s magnum opus into an automatic rifle was as doomed to fail as their earlier requirement that the selfloading rifle be built from the 1903 Springfield. And that’s why we entered Vietnam with such a shitty rifle that couldn't hold zero.
 
Last edited:
Oh, this one is hard to beat. The Breda 30 has got to be one of the top three most God-awful firearm designs to be developed by professionals and fielded by a serious army.


Meh. It's not as bad as it sounds. The AA sights were meant to be used by whole platoons at a time, with one officer shouting speed and range corrections. The platoon would fire in a volley. The intended target was the slow biplane scouts and bombers used by the Chinese, to whom volley after volley of 6.5mm Arisaka was a legitimate threat.


Oh, this one is hard to beat. The Breda 30 has got to be one of the top three most God-awful firearm designs to be developed by professionals and fielded by a serious army.


Meh. It's not as bad as it sounds. The AA sights were meant to be used by whole platoons at a time, with one officer shouting speed and range corrections. The platoon would fire in a volley. The intended target was the slow biplane scouts and bombers used by the Chinese, to whom volley after volley of 6.5mm Arisaka was a legitimate threat.

While there have been some good suggestions in this thread, I’m going to go with the unorthodox choice and say that one of the worst military rifles was… the M-14.

Yes. The M-14. The finest rifle of WWII, except it was developed and fielded in the Atomic Age when everyone else had learned the lessons of that war and moved on to better weapons like the G3 or the FN FAL.

But to understand just how bad the M-14 is, we need to look back to the genesis of the rifle. That would be the US Army’s Lightweight Rifle Program, an effort to find a successor to the M1 Garand. This successor would be a select-fire rifle weighing less than seven pounds and chambered in a cartridge not one bit less powerful than the .30-06. It was to replace not just the M1 Garand, but the 1918 BAR, the M1 Carbine, and the M3 submachine gun.

Yes. The Ordnance Department was serious. They wanted a do-it-all rifle that could be issued to everybody, and that rifle was going to be a magazine-fed select-fire M1 Garand. That was seriously in the program requirements. At one time, they required that the new rifle share 75% parts commonality with the existing Garand rifle.

To illustrate just how futile this idea was, let’s look at one of the prototypes that went into the Lightweight Rifle Program, entered by Winchester. Under the direction of CEO Edwin Pugsley (Yes, that Pugsley), senior Winchester engineers modified the M1 Garand with a selector switch and the ability to accept modified Browning Automatic Rifle magazines. One of those engineers had this to say about the project later:



The Garand was designed from the ground up to be semi-automatic, so it had an incredibly high cyclic rate. The recoil impulse was so harsh that .30-06 ball ammunition would destroy the BAR magazine, and Winchester engineers suggested treating the magazines as disposable. M2 AP ammunition would dent the front plate so heavily that it would prevent the cartridge stack from rising after a few shots.

Parallel programs ran by Remington and Springfield Armory ran into the same problems, and it would take another twelve years of slow, iterative development to deliver the M-14. By that time, almost none of the program requirements survived. The M-14 had zero parts commonality with the M1 Garand, its select-fire capability and integral bipod were abandoned, and it was still a shitty option compared to the FN FAL and the G3.

So why did the Ordnance Department insist on developing the Garand into a select-fire rifle, when anyone who fired the damn thing could tell you it was an exercise in futility? Well, the answer has two parts.

The first part of the answer is logistical commonality. In both WWI and the interwar period, the US Army rifleman squad had one M1918 BAR and a bunch of bolt-action Springfields, and the Ordnance Department dreamed of the day when all soldiers in the rifleman squad could be issued the same weapon. It was thought that a general-issue selfloading rifle could replace both the Springfield and the BAR, but this didn’t work out. Squads still carried the BAR, sometimes two BARs, in both WWII and Korea.

But the Ordnance Department had hope. Maybe by making incremental improvements to the M1 Garand, maybe by giving it full-auto capability and a detachable magazine, America could have a weapon that could do it all, and the Rifleman squad could achieve logistical unity.

The other half of the blame falls on the broad Teutonic shoulders of those fucking Krauts who invented the FG-42. The Fallshirmjägergewehr had its shortcomings, but it was a viable automatic rifle that was controllable when fired from the shoulder. It made the Ordnance Department’s fever dream look like a tangible possibility. There is a reason why the Lightweight Rifle Program was originally a requirement for a paratrooper rifle.

Of course, the Ordnance Department and the boys at Springfield Armory could have looked at the FG-42 and realized all the compromises needed to make the damn thing work in the first place. To make automatic fire controllable in such a light rifle, you need an inline stock, plenty of room for the bolt carrier to reciprocate, and one hell of a muzzle brake on the far end. To make the rifle lightweight and handy, you need an almost hollow receiver and a short overall length.

But the bureaucrats kept demanding something conventional and inexpensive, not realizing that Garand’s magnum opus into an automatic rifle was as doomed to fail as their earlier requirement that the selfloading rifle be built from the 1903 Springfield. And that’s why we entered Vietnam with such a shitty rifle that couldn't hold zero.

And then the M16 came along...and almost every other veteran from the old days loves to bitch about that....not that they were necessarily wrong, mind you, the platform in itself is brilliant and stood the test of time. It's just that the original execution was shoddy and rather idiotic, again not helped by the Garand/M14 fanboy club who didn't realize that warfare was changing and there were more close-to-medium range type engagements that had already started to occur in WW2 at infamous battles like Berlin and Stalingrad that necessitated automatic weapons that were reasonably controllable and accurate. The close confines of the jungle environment in Vietnam didn't help either. One gets the feeling that some folks were too proud to learn from the Soviets who were equipping everyone with AK rifles based on their own experiences in urban warfare. Then again, the AK rifle in spite of all the Russian fanboys screaming the opposite is clearly inspired by, and rather borrowed and stolen from the Nazi's MP44 Sturmgewehr assault rifle.
 
The M16 was horrible when it first was used, the 3 prong muzzle, the 3 round burst over full auto, the terrible early ergonomics.
I am glad the M16 was replaced by the Carbine, even though people complain the M16 was perfect as a rifle, I say the Carbine can work just as well
 
Then again, the AK rifle in spite of all the Russian fanboys screaming the opposite is clearly inspired by, and rather borrowed and stolen from the Nazi's MP44 Sturmgewehr assault rifle.
Bullshit. The only thing they have in common is the stamped sheet metal construction, and the Soviets were already experimenting with stamped metal construction in the PPSh. Internally, the Sturmgewehr resembles an SKS, not an AK.

The AK rifle borrowed and stole from the Garand rifle.
 
Bullshit. The only thing they have in common is the stamped sheet metal construction, and the Soviets were already experimenting with stamped metal construction in the PPSh. Internally, the Sturmgewehr resembles an SKS, not an AK.

The AK rifle borrowed and stole from the Garand rifle.
It stole from both German and American weapons because the Soviets were not unique
 
It stole from both German and American weapons because the Soviets were not unique
It was borrowed mostly from American guns because the Sturmgewehr was a mechanical dead end. The Germans, at best, proved that the select-fire assault rifle was a viable concept. The Soviets were already looking in that direction because their own experiments with self-loading rifles proved that a full-power rifle cartridge was unnecessary, and an intermediate cartridge was already in development for a light machine gun.

The Soviets did not steal designs though. They did extensive testing of infantry firearms, they examined foreign designs, and then they synthesized some of those ideas into their own weapons. They fully understood the designs and the intents behind those designs, which is what let them build an effective weapon.

'Not invented here's syndrome is how you get a piece of crap like the M14.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top