The Attack on Pearl Harbor, 79 Years Ago

Harlock

I should have expected that really
If you saw the 70s film one of the memorable bits is when the attack planes are coming in and run into a civilian aircraft which is more than a little surprised.
That did actually happen though it was less amusing, a bright yellow sightseeing plane was up at the time of the attack and was shot down by a Zero. After the battle the pilot proudly claimed the kill at which point his CO gave him a massive telling off, called him an idiot bastard and demoted him for killing civilians.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
All the IJN had to do was not pull the trigger. By pulling the Trigger the Sleeping Giant woke up. And all hell broke loose on the IJN and Imperial Japan in the coarse of 4 years.
 

ATP

Well-known member
All the IJN had to do was not pull the trigger. By pulling the Trigger the Sleeping Giant woke up. And all hell broke loose on the IJN and Imperial Japan in the coarse of 4 years.

FDR made them ultimatum - which practically mean case to be superpower or war.They have no real choice - but they should attack only british and dutch India for oil and rubber.USA would must attacl them without public support,lost few battles,and agree to peace.

But - FDR relocated fleet from America to Hawaii in 1940 to made them target they could not ignore.They falled for that,and lost war.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
FDR made them ultimatum - which practically mean case to be superpower or war.They have no real choice - but they should attack only british and dutch India for oil and rubber.USA would must attacl them without public support,lost few battles,and agree to peace.

But - FDR relocated fleet from America to Hawaii in 1940 to made them target they could not ignore.They falled for that,and lost war.
There is always a choice. Only a fool starts a war they can not win. And Japan was never gonna win in the Pacific. And that all boiled down to logistics. In the end the US could cut off their fuel supply. It would take longer but it would have made the IJN fleet dead in the water.
 

ATP

Well-known member
There is always a choice. Only a fool starts a war they can not win. And Japan was never gonna win in the Pacific. And that all boiled down to logistics. In the end the US could cut off their fuel supply. It would take longer but it would have made the IJN fleet dead in the water.

If they agreed,they cease to be superpower.Nobody except USA led by Biden would do so - and Tojo was not Biden.
And they could win - take Dutch India and Malaya,win few battles ,and USA public opinion would made FDR stop.
Especially after yellow "underhumans" beat proud white american few times.

Japan lost,becouse they do not undarstandt USA nature.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
There is always a choice. Only a fool starts a war they can not win. And Japan was never gonna win in the Pacific. And that all boiled down to logistics. In the end the US could cut off their fuel supply. It would take longer but it would have made the IJN fleet dead in the water.

And the U.S. doing all of that via inducement by Soviet puppets, ironically:

Historians have long discussed whether foreign espionage was responsible for Japan’s military attack on Pearl Harbor. But new research has connected major pieces of that Soviet activity within the United States in much detail. And most of it leads to one man.​
Much of the evidence points to one American government worked-turned-spy: Harry Dexter White. He was the top official in FDR’s Treasury Department and had the ear of prominent New Dealers such as his boss Secretary Henry Morgenthau, as well as others in President Roosevelt’s Cabinet.​
White was in close contact with Vitaly Pavlov, the “second-in-command” in the NKVD (predecessor to the KGB). The two plotted a strategy—”Operation Snow”—that initiated a toppling of dominoes that utlimately led to December 7, 1941. The main issue was oil. Japan didn’t have any and had to acquire it from the Soviet Union or the United States. White worked furiously to pull levels of American government power to provoke an attack from Japan, sparing the Soviets.​
He did so by influencing the Roosevelt administration against reaching a diplomatic deal with the Japanese. White worked overtime once the Hitler-Stalin pact abruptly ended, since a Japanese attack on Russia would divert Russia’s forces away from its Western Front, making Germany’s conquest of the Soviet Union all the more likely.​
Much of what we know about White comes from his August 1948 testimony before the House Committee on Un-American Activities. But because the former Treasury official failed to exonerate himself in these committee appearance, he took his own life three days later in a disguised suicide​
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Doing "all of that via Soviet Inducement" would imply that the Undersecretary of the US Treasury Department's Director of the Division of Monetary Research. one Harry Dexter White, was responsible for America's Foreign Policy in regards to Japan. I haven't read the book but I would imagine the operating assumption is, we know Harry Dexter White is treasonous.

Then he attempts to induce the assumption that not only is Harry Dexter White treasonous, he is also the primary advisor of the Secretary of Treasury, Henry Morgenthau Jr and Morgenthau in turn is the primary influence of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and thus the State Department was overlooked and thus Harry Dexter White's outcome, through Pavlov of the NKVD, operating independent of Stalin (the NKVD had its own 'foreign policy' independent of Stalin as the latter assumed Nazi Germany was a more reliable ally). Thus Pavlov > Harry Dexter White > Henry Morgenthau Jr > Franklin Delano Roosevelt = Soviet Inducement of the Embargoes that lead to Pearl Harbor and most of this seemed to occur after the Spring of 1941 which is a full year after Japan attempted a "Strike North" resulting in the not so spectacular Battle of Nomonhan.

Doing very lazt and low effort (because it's me) internet searching the Roosevelt Administration did the following, allegedly large because of Soviet Inducement:

July 1939: Sent Japan a six month notice of the implementation of the Export Control Act which would be implemented in 1940.
June 1940: FDR ordered the movement of the Pacific Fleet to Pearl Harbor.
October 9th 1940: FDR reiterates moving the Pacific Fleet to Pearl Harbor is meant as a check on potential Japanese aggression.
November 12th, 1940: Plan Dog Memo sent to FDR refining the long standing War Plan Orange and envisioning the two-front war with Germany First.
April 1941: Extending Lend Lease to China.
Spring 1941: FDR approves of the American Volunteer Group "Flying Tigers" to operate in China against the Japanese.
July 1st 1941: Congress granted FDR the ability to ban or restrict the export of resources necessary for national defense which FDR did in regards to scrap metal etc.
July 26th 1941: FDR freezes all Japanese assets under the (I guess convenient or compromised) purview of State Department official Dean Acheson who wanted to engage in "full financial warfare" with the Japanese.
July through November 1941: The State Department under Secretary Hull (not a friend of Communism) engages in negotiations with the Japanese of which Harry Dexter White purportedly had no involvement with.
August 1941: FDR does the same with oil.
November 26th 1941: The Hull Note is the response to Japan's final proposal where Japan would stay in China, withdraw from Indochina, remain part of the Tripartite Pact, and in exchange for ending the embargo, also promised not to attack European or US possessions in Asia and in return said powers would stop aiding China.

Now keep in mind, along with all of this, we had FDR's inducements against Nazi Germany and the rest of the Axis powers. Pushing for a Revision of the Neutrality Acts in 1939, Increased Arms Transfers to Britain, Appointing two Republicans to War and Navy Secretaries, Destroyers for Bases Agreement, Lend Lease to Britain then extending it to the Soviet Union, Neutrality Patrols and the Atlantic Charter etc which I'm assuming helped Hitler in his decision to Declare War on the United States on December 11th independent of Soviet Inducement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP

History Learner

Well-known member
That relations were bad as a result of the China War is not in question, but what is in question is if that made war with Japan inevitable and what role the Soviets played in forcing that about. It's worth noting that their had been war scares stretching back to the 1890s between Japan and the United States, with all, including the Panay Incident, being resolved peacefully. What made 1941 different, and what pushed both sides into conflict?

As late as November of 1940, President Roosevelt had advised Pacific commanders in meetings that the United States would not go to war over a Japanese invasion of European colonies according to the Joint Committee on the Investigation of the Pearl Harbor attack. In February of 1941, Gallup conducted a poll in which respondents were asked “Do you think the United States should risk war with Japan, if necessary, in order to keep Japan from taking the Dutch East Indies and Singapore?”. The response was Yes (39%), No (46%) and No opinion (15%). In October of 1940, American strategic planning groups were still expecting Japan to not only be neutral, but even a part of an American-led "Grand Area" that would contain the Italo-German bloc in Europe according to Tomorrow, the World by Stephen Wertheim:

BAhA9y4b_o.png


Outside of the civilian side of planning, the Victory Plan of 1941, which was the chief military document outlining U.S. strategy in the 1941-1942 phase, also had as one of its baseline assumptions that Japan would remain neutral and the United States would be fighting a Europe-only conflict:

To attain the overall numerical superiority of 2 to 1 normally considered necessary before undertaking offensive operations, the Allied powers would therefore have to field 700 to 900 divisions, or a force, together with appropriate supporting and service troops, of approximately 25 million men. Wedemeyer believed that it was dangerous to depend upon a maximum effort from all of the present Allied belligerents in order to raise the requisite forces. In the interests of forestalling disaster, he had to assume that the war would proceed along the lines of the worst possible case. Thus he hypothesized that, as of 1 July 1943 (the earliest date America could enter the ground war), the only effective ally in the European Theater of Operations would be Great Britain, which would have reinforced its armed forces by drawing on the Dominions and India for manpower. Russia would be effectively out of the war, although far eastern Siberia would continue to resist. France would continue passive collaboration with Germany. On the positive side, he expected Japan to be decisively engaged in China and Axis military strength to be materially weakened through the economic blockade, British air and sea operations, and losses absorbed in the Russian campaign.​
While Germany would be weakened until it could organize and exploit the conquered territory of the Soviet Union, and while Japan would probably pose no threat except in China, the upshot was that Great Britain was the only significant ally America could expect to heave. All of the ground forces needed to defeat Germany would have to come from the United States and Great Britain, both of which had to avoid debilitating their economic and industrial base through excessive calls on manpower. The two democracies, however, could not create a ground force of 25 million soldiers. England and the Dominions were nearing the end of their reserves, and the United States was unable to raise the bulk of a 25-million-man force unaided without grave disruption of the national economy. As early as September of 1941, Wedemeyer pointed out that the United Kingdom could not provide more than one million fully equipped and well-trained troops for battle in Europe. England still had to protect her home islands and far-flung empire, as well as sustain her economic and industrial effort.4 He therefore had to consider ways in which the smaller army America could field could still do the jobs required of it.​

Outside of the strategic realm, the institution of the Export Control Act in 1940 had not removed Japan as the chief Asian trading partner of the United States, with the volume of exports to Japan constituting 56% of Asiatic trade in 1941. So too, was the United States the chief trading partner of Japan overall, and American companies in late 1940 were helping the Japanese to develop Manchuria oil prospects. From "First Well Stimulates Search for Oil in Manchoukuo", Far Eastern Survey, Vol. 9, No. 21 (Oct. 23, 1940), pp. 252-253 -

Geological surveys, started in 1938 by the Manchuria Petroleum Co. and two other mining development companies, confirmed the original discovery and found several anticlines in the Fuhsin area which indicated the presence of a large oil field. Test borings were begun in August 1939, and oil was finally struck on April 28 at a depth of about 100 meters. The extent of the new oil field is not definitely known, but apparently it is potentially important. Japanese reports not only state that further investigations have disclosed the presence of four oil-bearing strata running 100 kilometers east and west, but they also suggest that other deposits are to be found in the locality up to a depth of several thousand meters.​
In the exploitation of the new field, Manchoukuo is reported to be negotiating with Japan for a supply of mining materials and for engineers, and the Japan Petroleum Co. may take a part in its development. However, the problem of who is to work the Fuhsin field is still up in the air. Three plans are said to be under consideration: first, development by the Manchuria Petroleum Co., which runs the Manchouku oil monopoly and operates an oil refinery at Dairen using imported crude oil; secondly, the formation of a new company; and thirdly, the detachment of the Fuhsin coal field from the Manchuria Coal Mining Co., and the formation of a new company for the joint exploitation of coal and iron resources. The latter seems the more logical method, for the oil strata at Fuhsin are said to be found above and below the coal seams. At Fushun, where the oil shale overlies the coal beds, both the coal mine and the oil shale plant are run by one company, the S.M.R. It is also important that the exploitation of the new oil field should not interfere with the expansion of coal production. The Fuhsin mines are the most successful of the new mines developed by the Manchuria Coal Mining Co. and are now second only to Fushun in output.​

Here we have American oil companies helping the Japanese in Manchuria after said Japanese had occupied Northern French Indochina and then signed the Tripartite Pact in September. So what changed?

Besides John Koster's book, we also have Stalin's War: A New History of World War II by Sean McMeekin, which is both recent (released last year) and by a mainstream historian, who accepts the vast majority of Koster's premise. By early 1941, Stalin was fully aware of the coming battle for dominance with Hitler, having effectively instigated it in part, and sought to secure his flank. To that end he divided the Japanese from the Germans, at least initially, by signing the Non-Aggression Pact in April and concurrently using the network of Soviet spies and unknowing agents to push American policy as hostile to Japan as possible in order to provoke a conflict. Whatever his formal role, Harry Dexter White had an outsized influence to his station given his connections to the White House and he wasn't alone in his efforts. When reading the timeline of events provided by Husky Khan, you see a sudden acceleration in mid-1941, which reflects what had been going on since Spring and helped to buildup tensions between the two countries, preventing a peaceful resolution of their issues as had happened every single time before.

I can hardly do justice to either book in a single post, so as a service to the board, I'm attaching a link here so that others may get a PDF copy of Koster's book to review the evidence for themselves. I cannot do the same for McMeekin's book, but I highly encourage everyone to get it; it's worth every penny.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Since I can't supply McMeekin's book directly, I thought I would at least share this article he penned in the Wall Street Journal last year titled The Other Day of Infamy in 1941:

There was nothing inevitable about the world-altering neutrality pact. Matsuoka, who had long opposed Soviet expansionism and favored the Axis, began to doubt what he had done once he sobered up. Stalin had charmed him into violating his own principles. After Hitler attacked Russia on June 22, 1941, Matsuoka advocated tearing up the neutrality pact and declaring war on the Soviets. After failing to convince the cabinet, in July 1941 he was forced to resign in disgrace.​
By then the revolution in Japanese foreign policy was a fait accompli. To capitalize, Stalin activated his top asset in Washington, Assistant Treasury Secretary Harry Dexter White. White was enlisted in Operation Snow, a Soviet plot to get America to impose draconian export controls that would provoke Japan into attacking the U.S. White was also the main author of the insulting “Hull note” handed to Japan’s ambassador on Nov. 26, 1941, which furnished Tokyo’s pretext for the Pearl Harbor attack.
Precisely as Stalin intended, the neutrality pact with Japan secured his Far Eastern frontier, just in time to save Moscow from the German onslaught in December 1941. Well-informed about deteriorating Japanese-American relations by his spy in the German Embassy in Tokyo, Richard Sorge, Stalin had begun transferring armor and troops from Siberia to his European fronts months earlier, in September 1941. Sorge, we now know, had advance knowledge of Japanese plans to attack U.S. and British positions in the Pacific once negotiations broke down—knowledge Stalin could have shared with Churchill and Roosevelt but didn’t.​
Stalin withheld the intelligence from his accidental allies against Hitler because he wanted Japan to attack them. As he had told Matsuoka, “As for the Anglo-Saxons, Russians have never been friendly to them, and do not want now to befriend them.” Though in July 1941 Stalin had demanded from Roosevelt a pledge that Japanese “encroachments in Siberia not be tolerated,” when Roosevelt’s envoy asked Stalin that September whether the U.S. could count on Soviet help if hostilities developed with Japan, Stalin smiled and responded that “Russia might be neutral.”​
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Since I can't supply McMeekin's book directly, I thought I would at least share this article he penned in the Wall Street Journal last year titled The Other Day of Infamy in 1941:

There was nothing inevitable about the world-altering neutrality pact. Matsuoka, who had long opposed Soviet expansionism and favored the Axis, began to doubt what he had done once he sobered up. Stalin had charmed him into violating his own principles. After Hitler attacked Russia on June 22, 1941, Matsuoka advocated tearing up the neutrality pact and declaring war on the Soviets. After failing to convince the cabinet, in July 1941 he was forced to resign in disgrace.​
By then the revolution in Japanese foreign policy was a fait accompli. To capitalize, Stalin activated his top asset in Washington, Assistant Treasury Secretary Harry Dexter White. White was enlisted in Operation Snow, a Soviet plot to get America to impose draconian export controls that would provoke Japan into attacking the U.S. White was also the main author of the insulting “Hull note” handed to Japan’s ambassador on Nov. 26, 1941, which furnished Tokyo’s pretext for the Pearl Harbor attack.
Precisely as Stalin intended, the neutrality pact with Japan secured his Far Eastern frontier, just in time to save Moscow from the German onslaught in December 1941. Well-informed about deteriorating Japanese-American relations by his spy in the German Embassy in Tokyo, Richard Sorge, Stalin had begun transferring armor and troops from Siberia to his European fronts months earlier, in September 1941. Sorge, we now know, had advance knowledge of Japanese plans to attack U.S. and British positions in the Pacific once negotiations broke down—knowledge Stalin could have shared with Churchill and Roosevelt but didn’t.​
Stalin withheld the intelligence from his accidental allies against Hitler because he wanted Japan to attack them. As he had told Matsuoka, “As for the Anglo-Saxons, Russians have never been friendly to them, and do not want now to befriend them.” Though in July 1941 Stalin had demanded from Roosevelt a pledge that Japanese “encroachments in Siberia not be tolerated,” when Roosevelt’s envoy asked Stalin that September whether the U.S. could count on Soviet help if hostilities developed with Japan, Stalin smiled and responded that “Russia might be neutral.”​

HL, what do you think would have happened without Pearl Harbor?
 

History Learner

Well-known member
What else can Japan do to provoke the US into fighting it in the Pacific?

As for Europe, there wasn't any way at all that Nazi submarines could eventually bring the US into the war?

Well, if the U.S. goes through with an oil embargo on Japan as a result of a Japanese attack on the Soviets, the Japanese reaction might be to go South anyway if they overreact instead of compensate with the Northern Karafuto oil fields. As for the U.S. there was numerous incidents in 1941 which failed to move the needle much, if any. Hitler had moved to reign in the Kriegsmarine, and Congress in September had already started showing some spine with the President over provocations in the Atlantic.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Well, if the U.S. goes through with an oil embargo on Japan as a result of a Japanese attack on the Soviets, the Japanese reaction might be to go South anyway if they overreact instead of compensate with the Northern Karafuto oil fields. As for the U.S. there was numerous incidents in 1941 which failed to move the needle much, if any. Hitler had moved to reign in the Kriegsmarine, and Congress in September had already started showing some spine with the President over provocations in the Atlantic.

Interesting. It seems foolish for the Japanese to spark a new war with the US when they're already fighting the Soviets, but if they think that the Soviets will capitulate soon in any case, well, ...

It does seem like a mistake for Hitler to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor, no?
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Interesting. It seems foolish for the Japanese to spark a new war with the US when they're already fighting the Soviets, but if they think that the Soviets will capitulate soon in any case, well, ...

It does seem like a mistake for Hitler to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor, no?

The rationale at the time was pretty solid. The U.S. was about to declare war regardless, so Hitler pre-empted it and was able to unleash the U-Boats to decisive effect.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The rationale at the time was pretty solid. The U.S. was about to declare war regardless, so Hitler pre-empted it and was able to unleash the U-Boats to decisive effect.

But I thought that the American people were still hostile towards war with Nazi Germany? Or did Pearl Harbor make them willing to support war against Nazi Germany as well as Japan even if Hitler would have, purely hypothetically, completely denounced the Pearl Harbor attacks?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top