The Death of our Liberty. (Discussion Thread)

Free-Stater 101

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Is it just me or does anybody genuinely give a damn about Liberty for its own sake anymore instead of using it as a platform for further advancement into authoritarianism of whatever flavor desired be it right or left with the only excuse for it being to stop one or the other?

Your thoughts?
 

ThatZenoGuy

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Is it just me or does anybody genuinely give a damn about Liberty for its own sake anymore instead of using it as a platform for further advancement into authoritarianism of whatever flavor desired be it right or left with the only excuse for it being to stop one or the other?

Your thoughts?
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH! D:<<<
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Is it just me or does anybody genuinely give a damn about Liberty for its own sake anymore instead of using it as a platform for further advancement into authoritarianism of whatever flavor desired be it right or left with the only excuse for it being to stop one or the other?

Your thoughts?

Nobody with any real power, yes.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Pretty much; authoritarians on both sides are more preeminent than people who openly love liberty and are willing to say that liberty is more important than safety.

And the one's who are supposed to value liberty the most "Big L Libertarians" consistently show they view liberty through a distinctly Ferengi-like lens of contracts and the NAP, while ignoring that liberty is often in danger because of that sort of legalese and ideological fart-huffing mindset does jack and shit to actually preserve or protect liberty.

Also, liberty is not profitable to advertisers who do not want controversy anywhere near their product advertisements, and since most online social media and tech is driven by what advertisers want, they get to encourage and promote removing any liberty online or offline that hurt's their ability to sell their goods.

That, and very few people who go in to government service of any time value free speech, rather than their own paychecks and pensions, so limiting liberty and free speech is something they gravitate towards, as it makes it easier to cruise on into retirement if you just toe the party line and don't stand up against madness being pushed down from above.

These days the only people who actually seem to care about liberty and truly act on it are comics like Trey Parker and Matt Stone, few others in media or society in general are willing to put liberty and freedom before profit or security.
 

S'task

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Pretty much; authoritarians on both sides are more preeminent than people who openly love liberty and are willing to say that liberty is more important than safety.

And the one's who are supposed to value liberty the most "Big L Libertarians" consistently show they view liberty through a distinctly Ferengi-like lens of contracts and the NAP, while ignoring that liberty is often in danger because of that sort of legalese and ideological fart-huffing mindset does jack and shit to actually preserve or protect liberty.

Also, liberty is not profitable to advertisers who do not want controversy anywhere near their product advertisements, and since most online social media and tech is driven by what advertisers want, they get to encourage and promote removing any liberty online or offline that hurt's their ability to sell their goods.

That, and very few people who go in to government service of any time value free speech, rather than their own paychecks and pensions, so limiting liberty and free speech is something they gravitate towards, as it makes it easier to cruise on into retirement if you just toe the party line and don't stand up against madness being pushed down from above.

These days the only people who actually seem to care about liberty and truly act on it are comics like Trey Parker and Matt Stone, few others in media or society in general are willing to put liberty and freedom before profit or security.
This entirely depends on what you define as "Liberty" and if you go with the modern "the right to do whatever I want" or the classical definition of Liberty, which was "the right to do what is moral."

If you go by the second, which most traditional conservatives do, then there are many who support classical Liberty, and push policies that support it. Outlawing activities which are immoral does not actually infringe on Liberty as classically understood. However, those who adopt the modern interpretation see many of those policies as infringing on their "right to do whatever I want."

Of course, nobody actually believes in true "unlimited liberty", they always hold there are limitations to it, after all, nobody calls to be allowed to kill people or other such activities, in reality, they actually hold to the second definition, the quibble is actually over the "what is right" part, even though they won't admit it.

Which is why Libertarians at least are honest about the debate. Their "what is moral" is founded in the NAP. The "authoritarian Christians" you whine about are also honest about the debatable part of Liberty, founding their "what is moral" in Christian Morality (the historical basis for Liberty that was commonly understood in the 18th century). Most everyone who pretends to hold to the first do so so they can avoid having the debate about "what is moral", as they frequently don't even have a strong sense of the basis of their morality and even if they do, when they break it down into a philosophy it ends up being philosophical Hedonism, which is unpopular to admit. Instead, they seek to reframe what liberty means to instead put people they dislike outside it's bounds and label them "authoritarian".
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
This entirely depends on what you define as "Liberty" and if you go with the modern "the right to do whatever I want" or the classical definition of Liberty, which was "the right to do what is moral."

If you go by the second, which most traditional conservatives do, then there are many who support classical Liberty, and push policies that support it. Outlawing activities which are immoral does not actually infringe on Liberty as classically understood. However, those who adopt the modern interpretation see many of those policies as infringing on their "right to do whatever I want."

Of course, nobody actually believes in true "unlimited liberty", they always hold there are limitations to it, after all, nobody calls to be allowed to kill people or other such activities, in reality, they actually hold to the second definition, the quibble is actually over the "what is right" part, even though they won't admit it.

Which is why Libertarians at least are honest about the debate. Their "what is moral" is founded in the NAP. The "authoritarian Christians" you whine about are also honest about the debatable part of Liberty, founding their "what is moral" in Christian Morality (the historical basis for Liberty that was commonly understood in the 18th century). Most everyone who pretends to hold to the first do so so they can avoid having the debate about "what is moral", as they frequently don't even have a strong sense of the basis of their morality and even if they do, when they break it down into a philosophy it ends up being philosophical Hedonism, which is unpopular to admit. Instead, they seek to reframe what liberty means to instead put people they dislike outside it's bounds and label them "authoritarian".
Most of American society has never defined 'liberty' the second way (or more like "freedom to do what I want to my own person and property, so long as it does not infringe on others"), only Tradcons have defined it that way (and I'd never seen it defined that way before you asserted it, so definitely not the common definition) and you notice it is not the tradcon definition that modern society uses.

Because what is 'moral' is subjective between faith's and ethnicity's; where as the US Constitution and it's definition of liberty does not rely on any one faith's or ethnicity's definition of what is moral and what is not.

Also, the Tradcons thinking their definition of anything means shit to people outside their group is kinda hilarious, and shows how absorbed the tradcons have become in trying to pretend their definitions are the same as the public and society at large's definitions of things.
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
This entirely depends on what you define as "Liberty" and if you go with the modern "the right to do whatever I want" or the classical definition of Liberty, which was "the right to do what is moral."

If you go by the second, which most traditional conservatives do, then there are many who support classical Liberty, and push policies that support it. Outlawing activities which are immoral does not actually infringe on Liberty as classically understood. However, those who adopt the modern interpretation see many of those policies as infringing on their "right to do whatever I want."

Of course, nobody actually believes in true "unlimited liberty", they always hold there are limitations to it, after all, nobody calls to be allowed to kill people or other such activities, in reality, they actually hold to the second definition, the quibble is actually over the "what is right" part, even though they won't admit it.

Which is why Libertarians at least are honest about the debate. Their "what is moral" is founded in the NAP. The "authoritarian Christians" you whine about are also honest about the debatable part of Liberty, founding their "what is moral" in Christian Morality (the historical basis for Liberty that was commonly understood in the 18th century). Most everyone who pretends to hold to the first do so so they can avoid having the debate about "what is moral", as they frequently don't even have a strong sense of the basis of their morality and even if they do, when they break it down into a philosophy it ends up being philosophical Hedonism, which is unpopular to admit. Instead, they seek to reframe what liberty means to instead put people they dislike outside it's bounds and label them "authoritarian".

Let's attack this argument at the source.

What actually is Christian Morality? Obviously it incorporates God's Laws into it so let's look at those. Specifically, let's look at the biggest and most prominent example of them in the 10 commandments:
image.png


1-4 are completely irrelevant here, after all even the Christian founding fathers saw that it was a bad idea to try and enforce those on people for many, many reasons.

For the rest of them, let's look at the moral and logical basis for them. After all, God would not give an order that has no reason to be followed. So we'll go in order.

5: Honoring your elders ensures a somewhat stable society, if you look to those that came for you for advice you most likely will build up generational knowledge and wisdom that will help prevent you from making bad decisions. Pretty reasonable, but not something you can really legislate, but instead must teach and encourage through public policies. No real intersection with freedom there.

6: Don't kill others unlawfully, ok... why? What makes murder wrong? It destabilizes communities and infringes on the other person's right to life. This is... actually pretty close to the NAP principles libertarians follow. Not exactly, but close to it.

7: No adultery, so don't lust after or pursue a married man or woman. For why this is a good rule to follow, we can look to the previous two: it destabilizes the group and society along with harming the victim (though in a different way than murder does).

8: Do not take what isn't owed to you. Put that way, it makes it rather clear what the base morality is here: it harms the person you take from.

9: Bearing false witness, aka: accusing them of crimes they didn't commit. Directly harms them and their freedom.

10: Do not feel, or rather do not act upon, the emotion of Envy. Same deal as the last ones: it harms the victim and takes away from their freedom.


All of these follow a very simple principle, one oft quoted by both constitutional scholars and libertarians alike:
"Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins." -U.S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

Say what you will about some of his decisions while on the bench, but some of them were quite good. Others not so much, but most were still in the right direction at least.

So if Christian Morality follows this line of thinking then the question, instead of "what is moral?", is "where does the harm begin and what is the proper remedy to prevent that harm?" This is also the question more libertarian and utilitarian principles lead towards. Indeed, the only principles that do not lead there are Authoritarian ones, where the question becomes "at what point does my control become too much to bear for the populace?"
 

S'task

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Most of American society has never defined 'liberty' the second way
OK, look, don't blame me for your complete failure to have learned the philosophical history of the US. To say the second definition was not common nor understood historically is, well, completely false. In fact, the second definition was so common in the 19th century and earlier that it was explicitly noted as the working definition of Liberty used in the US at it's founding in "Democracy in America" by Alexis de Tocqueville:

Democracy In America said:
In the bosom of this obscure democracy, which had as yet brought forth neither generals, nor philosophers, nor authors, a man might stand up in the face of a free people and pronounce the following fine definition of liberty.

"Nor would I have you to mistake in the point of your own liberty. There is a liberty of a corrupt nature which is effected both by men and beasts to do what they list, and this liberty is inconsistent with authority, impatient of all restraint; by this liberty 'sumus omnes deteriores': 'tis the grand enemy of truth and peace, and all the ordinances of God are bent against it. But there is a civil, a moral, a federal liberty which is the proper end and object of authority; it is a liberty for that only which is just and good: for this liberty you are to stand with the hazard of your very lives and whatsoever crosses it is not authority, but a distemper thereof. This liberty is maintained in a way of subjection to authority; and the authority set over you will, in all administrations for your good, be quietly submitted unto by all but such as have a disposition to shake off the yoke and lose their true liberty, by their murmuring at the honor and power of authority."

de Tocqueville here is quoting an earlier work, Mather's "Magnalia Christi Americana," which was published in 1702. de Tocqueville further expounded on this a few paragraphs later:

These two tendencies, apparently so discrepant, are far from conflicting; they advance together, and mutually support each other. Religion perceives that civil liberty affords a noble exercise to the faculties of man, and that the political world is a field prepared by the Creator for the efforts of the intelligence. Contented with the freedom and the power which it enjoys in its own sphere, and with the place which it occupies, the empire of religion is never more surely established than when it reigns in the hearts of men unsupported by aught beside its native strength. Religion is no less the companion of liberty in all its battles and its triumphs; the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims. The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law and the surest pledge of freedom.

I do not deny that the traditional understanding is out of step with the modern worlds, the modern world has adopted, as Mather put it "a liberty of a corrupt nature which is effected both by men and beasts to do what they list", but to say that the traditional understanding was not common, nor understood by others besides that you dismissively label as "tradcon" is an utter falsity.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Is it just me or does anybody genuinely give a damn about Liberty for its own sake anymore instead of using it as a platform for further advancement into authoritarianism of whatever flavor desired be it right or left with the only excuse for it being to stop one or the other?

Your thoughts?
Late stage decadent empire where the dumbed down, obese masses do not give a damn about abstracts or long term thinking and where the few thdt still think are so marginalized and demoralized that they are increasingly stopping to give a fuck, checking out of society or eagerly awaiting their preferred form of apocalypse which will will usher their preferred radical ideology into power, with the whole thing being run by an increasingly out of touch, senile, corrupt and power grabbing elite made up of hereditary idiots living in an ivory tower.
And a state that is increasingly run by the crony capitalists for the crony capitalists and is quickly growing bankrupt.

Happened to Rome, happened to Tzarist Russia and happened to Weimar Germany.

For a nice look at the situation back then you can check out a lovely book called "The Black Obelisk".

"Liberty", or the desire to safeguard it, in this regard is just another part of the civic virtues that are being lost/degraded intentionally
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Liberals do not have a monopoly on liberty. And liberty can only be enjoyed when there is order. And order will always be prioritised over liberty as, whilst high minded ideas are nice, not being murdered by the axe wielding maniacs over the hill is at the forefront of peoples’s minds.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Liberals do not have a monopoly on liberty. And liberty can only be enjoyed when there is order. And order will always be prioritised over liberty as, whilst high minded ideas are nice, not being murdered by the axe wielding maniacs over the hill is at the forefront of peoples’s minds.
And here we come to the good old Hobbes vs. Locke debate.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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OK, look, don't blame me for your complete failure to have learned the philosophical history of the US.
I know the civics history of the US and the connection to the Magna Carta and the Iroquis Federation, and the stuff taught in US public schools civics classes, plus what is relevant to my politics inquires/views in the modern day.

However, no, I never found Tocqueville to be something I cared to read, or relevant or important to my politics or political leanings, nor even heard of Mather till now.

Likely because, simply put, the classical definition of pre-US thinkers on liberty has no real bearing on most people's views of modern US politics, nor on most US public school civics classes. And I've never put much stock in any sort of philosophy classes, because it's mostly useless navel gazing of whatever religious figure or authoritarian ruler the prof wants to show off, if it is not based sole on US Constitutional law.
To say the second definition was not common nor understood historically is, well, completely false. In fact, the second definition was so common in the 19th century and earlier that it was explicitly noted as the working definition of Liberty used in the US at it's founding in "Democracy in America" by Alexis de Tocqueville:



de Tocqueville here is quoting an earlier work, Mather's "Magnalia Christi Americana," which was published in 1702. de Tocqueville further expounded on this a few paragraphs later:
Again, never read Torqueville or Mather, and most of the modern US society hasn't either.

You keep forgetting it was not tradcon philosophy or politics that brought me over from the Left, it was populism as embodied by Trump and the Left losing the plot.
I do not deny that the traditional understanding is out of step with the modern worlds, the modern world has adopted, as Mather put it "a liberty of a corrupt nature which is effected both by men and beasts to do what they list", but to say that the traditional understanding was not common, nor understood by others besides that you dismissively label as "tradcon" is an utter falsity.
I'd never heard it described the way you did, and never seen it treated that way in modern politics or civics classes.

So I would say you overestimate the reach and importance of old tradcon definitions, internal propaganda, and philosophical navel gazing outside the dwindling tradcon bits of the GOP.

Maybe start asking why I've never heard of this stuff in modern media, modern public schools, and modern political discourse, before getting huffy about 'didn't do research into esoteric tradcon political theory'.
 

S'task

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Bacle, stop labeling everything you don't know and doesn't fit in your ideals "tradcon".

I just showed that the definition of Liberty I was citing had a long history OUTSIDE of what you dismiss as "tradcon" thinking. de Tocqueville, despite what you seem to think, was a very influential writer on American politics both in his time and through the 20th century. A recent republication his work in 2000 has been cited over 1000 times by other writers and researchers on politics, and that's just that ONE republication of a work that is literally FREE online due to being out of copyright and availably on Project Gutenburg for free.

The fact you never read "Democracy in America" is a failure of your schooling and education, but that doesn't make it somehow an obscure work or the realm of "tradcons" as you dismissively label it. Even Wikipedia indicates it is one of the most widely taught books on American historical democracy in undergraduate polsci classes in the US, and I think we can safely say colleges and universities are not some hotbed of tradcon political thinking.

So, let me say this: it's you who is in an intellectual bubble when it comes to this, not me or "conservatives". You are literally arguing that a definition of "liberty" found in one of the most influential works on American Democracy ever written is "not commonly known" because YOU never encountered it. Perhaps, instead of claiming it is myself who is in a bubble, you might need to consider that no, you've been failed by your education and what you consider "common knowledge" is, in fact, purposefully wrought ignorance by those who educated you and now by your own pride for being unable to admit that others might know more than you or be correct.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Bacle, stop labeling everything you don't know and doesn't fit in your ideals "tradcon".
No, I just point out that a lot of the assumptions you make about historical education in US schools is something based around 'Traditional conservative' world views of the modern day.
I just showed that the definition of Liberty I was citing had a long history OUTSIDE of what you dismiss as "tradcon" thinking. de Tocqueville, despite what you seem to think, was a very influential writer on American politics both in his time and through the 20th century. A recent republication his work in 2000 has been cited over 1000 times by other writers and researchers on politics, and that's just that ONE republication of a work that is literally FREE online due to being out of copyright and availably on Project Gutenburg for free.
And again, that definition is not the definition of liberty that the majority of the populace works off of, regardless of how famous Tocqueville is/you think should be.
The fact you never read "Democracy in America" is a failure of your schooling and education, but that doesn't make it somehow an obscure work or the realm of "tradcons" as you dismissively label it. Even Wikipedia indicates it is one of the most widely taught books on American historical democracy in undergraduate polsci classes in the US, and I think we can safely say colleges and universities are not some hotbed of tradcon political thinking.
Most of the nation are not poli-sci graduates, nor much interested in pre-US definitions of things as they relate to the modern day.

Maybe you should remember that your background in political philosophy is much deeper and more detailed than 90% of the American population, so references you think of as universal/obvious may not actually be to most people, particularly if they are not also from your type of social/political background.
So, let me say this: it's you who is in an intellectual bubble when it comes to this, not me or "conservatives". You are literally arguing that a definition of "liberty" found in one of the most influential works on American Democracy ever written is "not commonly known" because YOU never encountered it.
I think you are the one living in a bubble of the old world educational standards and expectations, along with definitional terms.

Modern discourse in the major public circles may not be what you like to define things by, but playing this 'well you were just uneducated, most people know this shit' is tiresome and frankly just arrogantly assuming that the majority of the populace is more politically educated in the fine details of philosophy and pre-US definitions than they actually are.
Perhaps, instead of claiming it is myself who is in a bubble, you might need to consider that no, you've been failed by your education and what you consider "common knowledge" is, in fact, purposefully wrought ignorance by those who educated you and now by your own pride for being unable to admit that others might know more than you or be correct.
Or maybe you are in a bubble of the old world schooling and old world expectations of the US education system and what people 'need' to learn in schooling.

You can call it ignorance, you can call it teachers not giving info you think is critical, in the end it doesn't matter, because at the end of the day I am far more educated about US civics than the average joe, and if I haven't heard of something in politics or political philosophy, the chance the average joe has either is slim to none.

Deal with the education level and social definitions of the modern day US populace as is, instead of how you wish it was, and start realizing the finer points of deep philosophical education mean jack and shit to most people, compared to the modern day definitions of things.

I'm not afraid to admit when I don't know something, but I also am not going to pretend that philosophical details or esoteric internal definitions that you so often try to cite as 'this is what it means to traditional/classical conservatives' mean anything to the average person most of the time.
 
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S'task

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Then you entirely missed the point of what I was doing.

The OP was asking who was supporting Liberty in these times, I pointed out that many are for their definition of liberty. My purpose was to spur discussion that perhaps the modern definition of liberty is, in fact, part of the problem and that perhaps we should actually harken back to an older understanding of the term. That the modern definition of Liberty leads people towards philosophical Hedonism which, in turn, leads to the downfall and collapse of society as Hedonism produces nothing but selfish narcissists who focus only on their own personal pleasure and what they can get, without caring about others or what is needed for society at large to function.

You just come in and go, "no that definition is invalid and it's not real outside of a small subset of people whom I politically dislike and thus invalid", and I, in response, showed you that no, that the definition of liberty I was expressing was both historically valid and known outside of the narrow circle... so now you are changing the goalposts and saying that the definition is invalid because it's not the common understanding... which I did acknowledge. I'm putting forward the idea that your understanding of Liberty is wrong and part of the inherent problem with society at large today.

The thing is, you utterly ignored half my original post to claim my second definition of liberty was ahistorical and invalid. So how about you engage with that? You don't actually define Liberty as being able to do what you want, now do you? You accept limits on your liberty as valid? So what are those limits? You mock the Libertarian Non-Aggression Principle, but they at least espouse an understandable and reasonable limitation on Liberty. So what's yours? You clearly don't think people have the freedom to just go and kill each other? To steal things? Why? What do you found that on? Do you accept Speed Limits on roads and obey traffic signals and do you think that those rules are moral or immoral? Have you moral? Have you even thought about this, or do you just throw the term out to use as an attack against people who's politics you don't like because you feel they would limit your ability to pursue personal pleasure?
 

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
This entirely depends on what you define as "Liberty" and if you go with the modern "the right to do whatever I want" or the classical definition of Liberty, which was "the right to do what is moral."

If you go by the second, which most traditional conservatives do, then there are many who support classical Liberty, and push policies that support it. Outlawing activities which are immoral does not actually infringe on Liberty as classically understood. However, those who adopt the modern interpretation see many of those policies as infringing on their "right to do whatever I want."

Of course, nobody actually believes in true "unlimited liberty", they always hold there are limitations to it, after all, nobody calls to be allowed to kill people or other such activities, in reality, they actually hold to the second definition, the quibble is actually over the "what is right" part, even though they won't admit it.

Which is why Libertarians at least are honest about the debate. Their "what is moral" is founded in the NAP. The "authoritarian Christians" you whine about are also honest about the debatable part of Liberty, founding their "what is moral" in Christian Morality (the historical basis for Liberty that was commonly understood in the 18th century). Most everyone who pretends to hold to the first do so so they can avoid having the debate about "what is moral", as they frequently don't even have a strong sense of the basis of their morality and even if they do, when they break it down into a philosophy it ends up being philosophical Hedonism, which is unpopular to admit. Instead, they seek to reframe what liberty means to instead put people they dislike outside it's bounds and label them "authoritarian".
Honestly don't think the shift of Liberty from "do what is moral" to "do whatever I want" was remotely accidental. Classical liberty both empowers the individual and requires the build up of a moral framework which in turn requires a close-knit group of family, friends and religious life. People for whom can impart values to you and whom you respect and value caring about their opinion of you.

Everything that makes you harder for a technocratic bureaucrat to control in the same way government fears honest, law-abiding citizens. They have no leverage, no chains of control, over such a citizen who has his own moral compass and when his ruling body is out of sync with it will work to correct it. Either at the ballot box or, if the problem persists long and hard enough, by more drastic measures.

In contrast a person who's concept of liberty is how much cocaine can I snort off of a prostitute is far more malleable since his concerns of liberty are more material than anything else.

Or at least that's kind of how I see it.
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
Then you entirely missed the point of what I was doing.

The OP was asking who was supporting Liberty in these times, I pointed out that many are for their definition of liberty. My purpose was to spur discussion that perhaps the modern definition of liberty is, in fact, part of the problem and that perhaps we should actually harken back to an older understanding of the term. That the modern definition of Liberty leads people towards philosophical Hedonism which, in turn, leads to the downfall and collapse of society as Hedonism produces nothing but selfish narcissists who focus only on their own personal pleasure and what they can get, without caring about others or what is needed for society at large to function.

You just come in and go, "no that definition is invalid and it's not real outside of a small subset of people whom I politically dislike and thus invalid", and I, in response, showed you that no, that the definition of liberty I was expressing was both historically valid and known outside of the narrow circle... so now you are changing the goalposts and saying that the definition is invalid because it's not the common understanding... which I did acknowledge. I'm putting forward the idea that your understanding of Liberty is wrong and part of the inherent problem with society at large today.

The thing is, you utterly ignored half my original post to claim my second definition of liberty was ahistorical and invalid. So how about you engage with that? You don't actually define Liberty as being able to do what you want, now do you? You accept limits on your liberty as valid? So what are those limits? You mock the Libertarian Non-Aggression Principle, but they at least espouse an understandable and reasonable limitation on Liberty. So what's yours? You clearly don't think people have the freedom to just go and kill each other? To steal things? Why? What do you found that on? Do you accept Speed Limits on roads and obey traffic signals and do you think that those rules are moral or immoral? Have you moral? Have you even thought about this, or do you just throw the term out to use as an attack against people who's politics you don't like because you feel they would limit your ability to pursue personal pleasure?

Honestly don't think the shift of Liberty from "do what is moral" to "do whatever I want" was remotely accidental. Classical liberty both empowers the individual and requires the build up of a moral framework which in turn requires a close-knit group of family, friends and religious life. People for whom can impart values to you and whom you respect and value caring about their opinion of you.

Everything that makes you harder for a technocratic bureaucrat to control in the same way government fears honest, law-abiding citizens. They have no leverage, no chains of control, over such a citizen who has his own moral compass and when his ruling body is out of sync with it will work to correct it. Either at the ballot box or, if the problem persists long and hard enough, by more drastic measures.

In contrast a person who's concept of liberty is how much cocaine can I snort off of a prostitute is far more malleable since his concerns of liberty are more material than anything else.

Or at least that's kind of how I see it.

Let's attack this argument at the source.

What actually is Christian Morality? Obviously it incorporates God's Laws into it so let's look at those. Specifically, let's look at the biggest and most prominent example of them in the 10 commandments:
image.png


1-4 are completely irrelevant here, after all even the Christian founding fathers saw that it was a bad idea to try and enforce those on people for many, many reasons.

For the rest of them, let's look at the moral and logical basis for them. After all, God would not give an order that has no reason to be followed. So we'll go in order.

5: Honoring your elders ensures a somewhat stable society, if you look to those that came for you for advice you most likely will build up generational knowledge and wisdom that will help prevent you from making bad decisions. Pretty reasonable, but not something you can really legislate, but instead must teach and encourage through public policies. No real intersection with freedom there.

6: Don't kill others unlawfully, ok... why? What makes murder wrong? It destabilizes communities and infringes on the other person's right to life. This is... actually pretty close to the NAP principles libertarians follow. Not exactly, but close to it.

7: No adultery, so don't lust after or pursue a married man or woman. For why this is a good rule to follow, we can look to the previous two: it destabilizes the group and society along with harming the victim (though in a different way than murder does).

8: Do not take what isn't owed to you. Put that way, it makes it rather clear what the base morality is here: it harms the person you take from.

9: Bearing false witness, aka: accusing them of crimes they didn't commit. Directly harms them and their freedom.

10: Do not feel, or rather do not act upon, the emotion of Envy. Same deal as the last ones: it harms the victim and takes away from their freedom.


All of these follow a very simple principle, one oft quoted by both constitutional scholars and libertarians alike:


Say what you will about some of his decisions while on the bench, but some of them were quite good. Others not so much, but most were still in the right direction at least.

So if Christian Morality follows this line of thinking then the question, instead of "what is moral?", is "where does the harm begin and what is the proper remedy to prevent that harm?" This is also the question more libertarian and utilitarian principles lead towards. Indeed, the only principles that do not lead there are Authoritarian ones, where the question becomes "at what point does my control become too much to bear for the populace?"

As my post here shows... you're being a bit disingenuous here guys.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
As Bacle said, that's not the general defintion of Liberty today.

Note, I hadn't heard that stuff, either.


I do agree, there needs to be limits to freedom, and the NAP's a reasonable one.


From a certian point of view, we're freer now than almost any point in history. If you want to be a degenerate, now's a great time. Have kids and treat them like shit? Happens all over. Eat to the point of stupidity? Sure, why not? Be a con artist? Just choose the right con!


There's certain groups who have more of this freedom, but it's there. And it's showing me, at least, that freedom's not that good a thing. It needs a great deal of limits.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
As Bacle said, that's not the general defintion of Liberty today.

Note, I hadn't heard that stuff, either.


I do agree, there needs to be limits to freedom, and the NAP's a reasonable one.


From a certian point of view, we're freer now than almost any point in history. If you want to be a degenerate, now's a great time. Have kids and treat them like shit? Happens all over. Eat to the point of stupidity? Sure, why not? Be a con artist? Just choose the right con!


There's certain groups who have more of this freedom, but it's there. And it's showing me, at least, that freedom's not that good a thing. It needs a great deal of limits.
To be enslaved to your vices is no freedom at all.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
To be enslaved to your vices is no freedom at all.

True.

Yet, as the Scholastics noted on the subject of free will: to be forcibly witheld from ill behaviour is no virtue at all. To be called good at all, you must choose to be good.

The problem of "the Moderns" is that they are nihilists, by and large, who argue that there is no morality, and that "allowed" therefore equates to "good". Or at least "as good as anything else". The problem of many "conservatives" in the modern period is that they (often without understanding it!) think in the same paradigm, but just flip it around. They say: "...And because of this, everything we recognise as not good must be forbidden by law."

That, too, is against the traditional conception of morality, which recognised different spheres of authority. Meaning, generally: that by which you harm others is the province of the law, and that by which you harm your own soul is the province of the Church.

The traditional view is more nuanced than the modernist one, and essentially holds that things can be bad without being legally forbidden; and that therefore, the mere fact that something shouldn't be regulated by the law doesn't mean that it is therefore a good idea.

Of course, that view assumes that people are capable of exerting moral agency. Traditional approaches to morality are superior to the crude modernist attempts, but are wholly unsuited to a populace of vacuous idiots. Hence the current state of things.
 

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