Star Wars The Mandalorian

Skallagrim

Well-known member
To clear up some major confusion here:

Leia's father being revealed as having been Darth Vader didn't come up in the original EU at all. It was literally never a point, to the extent that we don't even know if (or if so, when) the wider galaxy ever learned of it. Several characters know, but for the rest, nothing is clear.

This in complete opposition to the Disney canon, where it actually is a huge plot point. And indeed is the reason for Leia's big political eclipse. This being pretty much the entire plot of the novel Bloodline.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
To clear up some major confusion here:

Leia's father being revealed as having been Darth Vader didn't come up in the original EU at all. It was literally never a point, to the extent that we don't even know if (or if so, when) the wider galaxy ever learned of it. Several characters know, but for the rest, nothing is clear.

This in complete opposition to the Disney canon, where it actually is a huge plot point. And indeed is the reason for Leia's big political eclipse. This being pretty much the entire plot of the novel Bloodline.

I disagree that it "was literally never a point" in the original EU; Leia being "Lady Vader" was a *key* plot point in the Thrawn Trilogy, as in it's ultimately the entire reason the Noghri end up switching sides and killing Thrawn, and the root of the ongoing loyalty that the Noghri have to the Skywalkers and Solos throughout the rest of the EU. It's fair to say it wasn't a point in New Republic politics, certainly, but it absolutely was something that came up.

As to Bloodline, that is set much, much later in the timeline than Aftermath, so Leia's being outed as Vader's daughter had nothing to do with her political unpopularity at the time of the Galactic Concordance and military disarmament. Aftermath is basically a new-canon epilogue to ROTJ, Bloodline is new-canon prologue to Force Awakens.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
To clear up some major confusion here:

Leia's father being revealed as having been Darth Vader didn't come up in the original EU at all. It was literally never a point, to the extent that we don't even know if (or if so, when) the wider galaxy ever learned of it. Several characters know, but for the rest, nothing is clear.

This in complete opposition to the Disney canon, where it actually is a huge plot point. And indeed is the reason for Leia's big political eclipse. This being pretty much the entire plot of the novel Bloodline.

Lady Vader only came up really for the extremely minor Noghri electorate with whom she polled extremely well with... I have doubts they were even a significant voting block of course. :p
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
. . . Finally got to watch the episode and...

The entire thing was bullshit. Well, ok, the pre-title screen part was fun, just some good ol' fashioned Star Wars dogfighting and the ending part was also, well, it went exactly as expected from the set up. Looks like Bo is now officially a regular part of the show. I actually like that and hope she sticks around she and Dinn make for a good team so long as they resist the urge to have him constantly be incompetent when she's around.

That said, everything else this episode was about? What the actual fuck? Is this what Andor was like? If so, I double down on it having no place in Star Wars. It was slow, plodding, and the "twist" at the end was so telegraphed that my wife was calling it out less than part way through. It's also systemic character assassination of the New Republic, which I guess is par for the course for Disney Star Wars. At the same time, this does retroactively make what happens in The Force Awakens LESS of a tragedy since apparently the New Republic was Evil, Corrupt, and Incompetent to the point where they deserved to be put down...
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
. . . Finally got to watch the episode and...

The entire thing was bullshit. Well, ok, the pre-title screen part was fun, just some good ol' fashioned Star Wars dogfighting and the ending part was also, well, it went exactly as expected from the set up. Looks like Bo is now officially a regular part of the show. I actually like that and hope she sticks around she and Dinn make for a good team so long as they resist the urge to have him constantly be incompetent when she's around.

That said, everything else this episode was about? What the actual fuck? Is this what Andor was like? If so, I double down on it having no place in Star Wars. It was slow, plodding, and the "twist" at the end was so telegraphed that my wife was calling it out less than part way through. It's also systemic character assassination of the New Republic, which I guess is par for the course for Disney Star Wars. At the same time, this does retroactively make what happens in The Force Awakens LESS of a tragedy since apparently the New Republic was Evil, Corrupt, and Incompetent to the point where they deserved to be put down...
A lot of Andor eas like this yes
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
I'd argue that an Alliance founded in no small part by corrupt politicians from a rotting house was never going to be capable of building anything but another rotting house. From that point of view, Mon Mothma's idea that the central government had to be heavily disarmed because it would inevitably plunge into another galactic conflict if it retained such power isn't completely insane; after all, the post-Rusaan Republic *was* almost completely disarmed and decentralized, and that was one of the best periods in Galactic history.

It's harder to argue that a disarmed Republic couldn't possibly work when canon galactic history did in fact show that it sometimes did.
Grief Carga was right to keep his planet out of the New Republic. The New Republic is acting like a more corrupt and brain dead version of the Old Republic. And to the episode title. I think it had to do with Dr Pershing rather than Bo Katan. You can see in the episode how he basically turns on the New Republic because in his eyes. The New Republic is not being just.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Also, just to add, Coruscant holds tremendous meaning to the Imperial identity and ideology. Why, when they surround it on all sides, would they allow the New Republic to have it?

That's exactly why this was a non-negotiable point for the New Republic -- they'd let the Empire continue to hold the Core Worlds except for Coruscant, which is to be turned over to a nominally-neutral caretaker government.

As for why the Empire agreed to the deal, Mas Amedda agreed to it mostly to save his own skin.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Also, just to add, Coruscant holds tremendous meaning to the Imperial identity and ideology. Why, when they surround it on all sides, would they allow the New Republic to have it?

Because the Imperial rump government doesn't surround Coruscant on all sides.

As I understand it, the Galactic Concordance peace treaty was basically a "status quo" peace deal except for Coruscant switching from Imperial control to a nominally-neutral single-system government of its own. The Empire and New Republic ceased all offensive activity against each other, so worlds that were still by the Empire stayed Imperial, worlds that had already been liberated by the Rebels became New Republic, and worlds that were actively contested at the time held elections to pick a side later on.

This means the Imperial rump government (which unlike EU Legends isn't officially named anything) controls an unstated number of worlds in the Core, Colonies, and Inner Rim sectors of the Galaxy, canonically including Commenor, Humbarine, Tinnel IV, Rendili, and Denon, while the New Republic controls the rest of former Old Republic territory, i.e. the rest of the Core, Colonies, and Inner Rim, the entire Mid-Rim, and the entire Outer Rim.

The Imperial factions like Moff Gideon's, which didn't accept the peace deal, mostly retreated to the Outer Rim because the New Republic's actual hold there is even more tenuous than that of the Old Republic. A specific set of very hardline Imperials retreated even further than that into the Unknown Regions, where they formed the faction that deccades later came back into New Republic territory as the First Order.

In other words: most anti-peace Imperials became their own pocket factions in the Outer Rim. The First Order are the equivalent of the Clans, they fucked ALL the way out into unexplored territory in order to give themselves more time to rebuild and come back with better technology and shit. The 90% disarmament of the New Republic was based on, "The inner systems Imperial rump is keeping to the treaty and the 10% of our current fleet that we're keeping is more than they have left, we don't give a shit about the riffraff in the Outer Rim, and we don't know about the First Order hardliners that went further out."
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
But...

my dude.

If the Empire's issue was that most of its offensive forces were gone so it has to make nice with the Rebellion, then it still has its Core and Home Fleet.

Where the fuck would that Home Fleet be stationed!?

Think. Disney. Think!!!

I'm pretty sure that Disney canon takes a minimalist view of both the Empire and NR's fleet sizes, so the massive reserve fleets seen in things like Dark Empire simply don't exist in this timeline. Which in some ways makes more sense than, "The Empire always had these reserves, but they just sat around while the New Republic conquered everything because...reasons, until the Emperor was reborn and brought them into action, but then he accidentally blew them all up himself."
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
Why let the Rebellion have Coruscant? so they can BANKRUPT them. How much territory does the NR control? Can it safely feed and water Coruscant? How much will this cost the NR.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Why let the Rebellion have Coruscant? so they can BANKRUPT them. How much territory does the NR control? Can it safely feed and water Coruscant? How much will this cost the NR.

It's all super vaguely described, so we have no idea whether the Imperial Remnant (they do refer to it as that on the Wook, at least) still controls all of the surrounding Core, or whether the New Republic has some sort of salient extending towards Coruscant.

The underlying issue is that this all comes from Wendig's shitty books, and Wendig is both a terrible writer and a terrible world-builder. So we know nothing for certain, except that everything he does mention makes all involved sound like blithering idiots.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
It's all super vaguely described, so we have no idea whether the Imperial Remnant (they do refer to it as that on the Wook, at least) still controls all of the surrounding Core, or whether the New Republic has some sort of salient extending towards Coruscant.

The underlying issue is that this all comes from Wendig's shitty books, and Wendig is both a terrible writer and a terrible world-builder. So we know nothing for certain, except that everything he does mention makes all involved sound like blithering idiots.
Yeah.

The EU got a lot of things wrong, but the Empire going full on “Three Kingdoms” with the Emperor’s death, and the nascent Republic having to still overcome some long odds, made sense. One of the mightiest war machines in sci-fi isn’t simply beaten overnight.

Edit: Hell, going off that and with Disney’s obsession with diversity, they could have brought in a Chinese casted “Moff Cao Cao”, and people would have lapped that up.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Yeah.

The EU got a lot of things wrong, but the Empire going full on “Three Kingdoms” with the Emperor’s death, and the nascent Republic having to still overcome some long odds, made sense. One of the mightiest war machines in sci-fi isn’t simply beaten overnight.

Edit: Hell, going off that and with Disney’s obsession with diversity, they could have brought in a Chinese casted “Moff Cao Cao”, and people would have lapped that up.
The Space Villain Cao Cao!!!! :p
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I hate that somehow Disney canon has made the NR a more fucked up gov than the pre-Palp OR, and made the treatment of Imperial defectors/POWs into Orwellian nightmares with the scrapyard sentences and the 'low voltage mindflayer'.

Legends had the NR actually welcome most Imperial defectors, so long as they weren't high level war criminals, or rogues like Bevel Lemlisk who nearly gave the Hutts a Death Star.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Edit: Hell, going off that and with Disney’s obsession with diversity, they could have brought in a Chinese casted “Moff Cao Cao”, and people would have lapped that up.

You could cast Chow Yun-fat, for instance. He already portrayed Cao Cao in another film, even. If you want to go for more of a character playing the role that Werner Herzog didn't get to play (because they really wasted him, too) you could consider Tzi Ma, perhaps. Naturally, there are many other options.

I'm totally in favour of "Moff Cao Cao". You can have him as a major background threat first, then see him unite the Imperial faction, and finally have him narrowly defeated in an epic space battle anaolgous to the Battle of the Red Cliffs. This prevents Imperial re-conquest of the galaxy, but leaves him in charge of a third of it. (That third then becomes the "hermit kingdom" that later evolves into the First Order, presumably-- albeit hopefully a less moronic version thereof.)
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Why let the Rebellion have Coruscant? so they can BANKRUPT them. How much territory does the NR control? Can it safely feed and water Coruscant? How much will this cost the NR.

Again, the Galactic Concordance deal doesn't actually make Coruscant a New Republic system; it's a nominally independent puppet government with Mas Amedda as a Hirohito-style figurehead.

It's all super vaguely described, so we have no idea whether the Imperial Remnant (they do refer to it as that on the Wook, at least) still controls all of the surrounding Core, or whether the New Republic has some sort of salient extending towards Coruscant.

The underlying issue is that this all comes from Wendig's shitty books, and Wendig is both a terrible writer and a terrible world-builder. So we know nothing for certain, except that everything he does mention makes all involved sound like blithering idiots.

It's not explicitly laid out, but the idea is definitely that the Remnant doesn't control the Core entire; they're spread across the Core, Colonies, and Inner Rim, and effectively 'split' those regions with the New Republic. They definitely don't control the entire Core; Hosnian Prime is canonically a New Republic World, and that's Core.
 

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