Technology The Neo-Amish Movement: How To Preserve Tradition in a Technological World

LordDemiurge

Well-known member
here's no report because the report would be devastating to the narrative.
Citation needed, because communities like the Amish that insulate themselves from modern life are not going to be visiting therapists or keeping track psychiatrists unless things get extreme. Nor are they lining up for medical experiments and case studies for this claim to really solidified.

The reasons why you don't see diagnoses for ADHD and ADD is obvious. When it comes to physical health as well, they don't cut themselves off from the modern world either.

I can see a point in some cases. For example I can imagine that the obesity crisis doesn't affect them as much, nor the kind of digital addiction that's becoming common. However I'm really not sure where he's getting the claim the Amish don't suffer from chronic illnesses or epilepsy.

The life expectancy of the average Amish person is also not particularly higher or lower than the average American. So whatever cost-benefit trade-offs are being made, seem to mostly even out.

I disagree, having more conservative viewpoints in Big Tech is not going to change anything, because the change you want can't happen top down. 'Big tech' as it can be called is at best a mirror image of the whole, its a system fulfilling an existing demand.

What the solution is, I'm not entirely sure, I personally suspect that in the future societies will probably embrace some kind of stoic or Buddhist approach to life.

We live in a time where the average person has access to an all manner of easy pleasures or gratifications. Scarcity kept us in check before, now we need to learn how to police ourselves and avoid falling into the hedonic treadmill. You've brought it up, but one obvious way is to advertise to parents to stop having their kids be raised by screens of course.
 
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Simonbob

Well-known member
The reasons why you don't see diagnoses for ADHD and ADD is obvious. When it comes to physical health as well, they don't cut themselves off from the modern world either.

Different diet, no added chemicals etc, will have effects. They just eat an older, simpler diet. That leads to less of those sorts of problems. The best treatment for ADHD is a better diet. That, and letting boys be boys.


The exchange is if things go wrong enough, they don't have enough food.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Brain implants and other intrusive technologies that interfere with cognitive or physical functions raise valid ethical questions. Such interventions can undermine the essence of human identity and autonomy. They blur the boundaries between man and machine. By resisting these technologies, a Neo-Amish movement aims to safeguard the distinct human experience and ensure the preservation of individual freedom.
Long-term, avoiding brain implants and remaining competitive in the workplace will be impossible.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
That reminds me of home schooling vs public schooling debate. Yes, home schooled kids won't fit into larger society all that well, but by now this is an advantage rather than a flaw.
Same with technological advances, not taking the mRNA vaccines is better than taking them and the list of advances that are detrimental to their users, but will be pushed for the sake of conformity (like cashless economy) will just keep growing.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Even if true then we can be “uncompetitive” unless you are a capitalist who worships muh numbers go up there are more important things.
You can be....
You can also suffer the consequences of being uncompetitive.
If you have capitalist bleeding hearts with their biggest sticks take care of any potential wider world problems like certain groups in USA, you can afford to ignore it.
But if you have your own country and live in a spicier part of the world, it's just a matter of time before some local wannabe empire decides that you are an easy target to conquer because you are uncompetitive and as such you can't possibly afford a competitive military.
Especially not when you also have to worry about trying to get talented young people to not migrate somewhere else to make much money (what, are you going to ban leaving and also western media like North Korea so that they don't know?), getting functioning first world infrastructure and keeping foreign secret services with all their fancy tech and stinky capitalist money from getting an edge in.

Learn from the tragic history of commies and the consequence of scoffing at capitalist competitivness. Their governments fell (Soviet Union), or became competitive (Vietnam), or are making their people wish they fell (North Korea) or some combination of the above.

And don't you dare bring up western shitlibs, they aren't for being competitive, they have their dumb pet peeves that they put above being competitive, and when they bring it up, it's usually macroeconomic version of a scam that will lift up the numbers short term but crash and burn a bit later when they got their money already, instead of what you would expect to sound like a challenge to the position of industrial-technological powers like China, Japan and South Korea, western shitlibs don't even want to try that and have a list of excuses for not trying.
That reminds me of home schooling vs public schooling debate. Yes, home schooled kids won't fit into larger society all that well, but by now this is an advantage rather than a flaw.
Same with technological advances, not taking the mRNA vaccines is better than taking them and the list of advances that are detrimental to their users, but will be pushed for the sake of conformity (like cashless economy) will just keep growing.
There are advances and "advances". A laptop from 2020 is clearly an advance over one from 2000.
Most people who promote homeschooling do not promote it as the superior alternative for elite private school. The promote it as a very valid alternative to shit like this:
 
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DarthOne

☦️
You assume that a plutocratic, oligarchical cybernetic hellscape is what the future is destined to become. When nothing could be further from the truth.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
You assume that a plutocratic, oligarchical cybernetic hellscape is what the future is destined to become. When nothing could be further from the truth.

the system is brand new and already shows massive cracks in the facade think about how it looks a few generations from now.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
A laptop from 2020 is clearly an advance over one from 2000.

Yes and no. Laptop from 2000 is still perfectly functional for everything you absolutely need, a modern one can do fancy stuff like modern games but that's about all. I can still do my job on 20 years old computer. And that is one of the points of Neo-Amish thinking - a community that accepts certain level of discomfort in exchange for preserving their humanity - for example, refusing smartphone brainrot, mRNA vaccines.

Most people who promote homeschooling do not promote it as the superior alternative for elite private school.

Just like majority of people can't afford to send their children to elite private schools, the majority of people can't resist mRNA mandates, bugs in food, cashless economy and similar measures that dehumanise us, they need a community to do so, a community that will say no to what is harmful to people, instead forcing every latest tech fad down people's throats, no matter the harm.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Yes and no. Laptop from 2000 is still perfectly functional for everything you absolutely need, a modern one can do fancy stuff like modern games but that's about all. I can still do my job on 20 years old computer. And that is one of the points of Neo-Amish thinking - a community that accepts certain level of discomfort in exchange for preserving their humanity - for example, refusing smartphone brainrot, mRNA vaccines.
>absolutely need
No, it won't, unless you play silly games with that term. You won't be able to do any kind of CPU or GPU intensive applications with it, especially 3d graphics, browse internet properly because modern sites are resource hogs, if you even get a compatible browser, many modern communication apps will run it out of RAM, and so on. Yes, you can use it as a glorified typewriter or a toy for a kid, but that's about it.
Just like majority of people can't afford to send their children to elite private schools, the majority of people can't resist mRNA mandates, bugs in food, cashless economy and similar measures that dehumanise us, they need a community to do so, a community that will say no to what is harmful to people, instead forcing every latest tech fad down people's throats, no matter the harm.
And the Amish model doesn't work for that, as it only works while protection of US law continues to cover it. They aren't resisting it themselves, they are hiding in a corner while those who push it are busy fighting the more active opposition.
And it's very important for that purpose to notice how many of these "advances" are not advances at all, they are sidegrades at best, and outright cons at worst, which has a much wider appeal than just being a community of weirdos that seemingly randomly declare things harmful, like certain other zealots.

They aren't being pushed or even getting popular because they are comfortable, they are pushed because they are useful and/or politically correct. There is nothing comfortable about in particular the green side of the leftist agenda like mentioned bugs in food, it's just their ideological zealotry to push it regardless.

Likewise, "cashless economy" is a golden grail for government power-mongers, it's not for you or any other average person. Continuing existence of cash doesn't stop anyone from using any of the cashless way of holding and transferring money, it only stops some of the rather shady government schemes that can only be done with cashless economy.
As for the vax, maybe it will be an improvement... In 30 years, after all the quirks, questions and problems are ironed out... As things stand, it was a mass medical experiment snuck in under the guise of an emergency, the full results of which we may not know for many years.
And the aggressive push is also not as global and universal as some media imply.
Dodging it is not "for the rich only", even in the first world about a fifth of adults did dodge it (and demographically it's not the richest fifth by far), and more than that dropped keeping up with the repeating doses.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
You can be....
You can also suffer the consequences of being uncompetitive.
If you have capitalist bleeding hearts with their biggest sticks take care of any potential wider world problems like certain groups in USA, you can afford to ignore it.
But if you have your own country and live in a spicier part of the world, it's just a matter of time before some local wannabe empire decides that you are an easy target to conquer because you are uncompetitive and as such you can't possibly afford a competitive military.
Especially not when you also have to worry about trying to get talented young people to not migrate somewhere else to make much money (what, are you going to ban leaving and also western media like North Korea so that they don't know?), getting functioning first world infrastructure and keeping foreign secret services with all their fancy tech and stinky capitalist money from getting an edge in.

Learn from the tragic history of commies and the consequence of scoffing at capitalist competitivness. Their governments fell (Soviet Union), or became competitive (Vietnam), or are making their people wish they fell (North Korea) or some combination of the above.

And don't you dare bring up western shitlibs, they aren't for being competitive, they have their dumb pet peeves that they put above being competitive, and when they bring it up, it's usually macroeconomic version of a scam that will lift up the numbers short term but crash and burn a bit later when they got their money already, instead of what you would expect to sound like a challenge to the position of industrial-technological powers like China, Japan and South Korea, western shitlibs don't even want to try that and have a list of excuses for not trying.

There are advances and "advances". A laptop from 2020 is clearly an advance over one from 2000.
Most people who promote homeschooling do not promote it as the superior alternative for elite private school. The promote it as a very valid alternative to shit like this:
I was not going to bring up western shitlibs. I was just going to address the first part the Amish do it: and so we don’t talk past each other we should be clear about what we mean when we say becoming competitive. I’m talking about transhumanism think cyberpunk 2077 as a minimum or ghost in the shell. In that case couldn’t we be Amish and stay human. Or if we had a country just let the “educated” who want cyborg parts to move we don’t want that here. As for your point about conquest that would be a sorry in the short and medium term but as long as you have a nuclear deterrent that can’t be hacked because it’s all manual you should be fine. In the long term if the become full post human who could easily conquer us their technology would also advance and Japan and South Korea would instead expand into space they have much more resources and what would be the point to conquer primatives we don’t feel the need to conquer sentinel islands or an ant colony in the uninhabited parts of the Sahara. So why would future cyborgs and AIS conquer us if we don’t have anything they want?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I was not going to bring up western shitlibs. I was just going to address the first part the Amish do it: and so we don’t talk past each other we should be clear about what we mean when we say becoming competitive. I’m talking about transhumanism think cyberpunk 2077 as a minimum or ghost in the shell. In that case couldn’t we be Amish and stay human. Or if we had a country just let the “educated” who want cyborg parts to move we don’t want that here. As for your point about conquest that would be a sorry in the short and medium term but as long as you have a nuclear deterrent that can’t be hacked because it’s all manual you should be fine.
If we go that far with technology, "nuclear deterrent" is no longer the be all end all unless people are retarded, delivery methods are the name of the game if everyone gets really cutthroat competitive, if western leadership wasn't kowtowing to peacenik retards they already would be.

And no, hacking is not the main defense against enemy nuclear weapons, even against current ones, never was, never will be, anti missiles and point defenses are the main point of interest here.
Assuming the kind of computer technology needed to enable this kind of mass transhumanism, those would be very capable indeed.
Can you keep up with the "sword vs shield" race of defenses and delivery methods with such an economic and technological handicap? Maybe... But probably not. In which case, imagine trying to nuke modern USA but all you have are 1950's nuclear bombers and weapons, that's a fitting illustration of the problem at hand.
In the long term if the become full post human who could easily conquer us their technology would also advance and Japan and South Korea would instead expand into space they have much more resources and what would be the point to conquer primatives we don’t feel the need to conquer sentinel islands or an ant colony in the uninhabited parts of the Sahara. So why would future cyborgs and AIS conquer us if we don’t have anything they want?
>we
"We" have a lot of hang-ups about these things. Imagine what would happen to the Sentinelese if they were located near Russia or China.
Being on Earth is probably enough of a reason for at least few centuries. Doesn't even need to be the great powers of the advanced world. In South America there are controversial cases where mere gangs of illegal miners and poachers wiped out whole primitive tribes for getting in the way of their business.

Another issue is that international economic competition would de facto force such a country into a North Korea like corner in terms of ability to import and export due to not being competitive at all. Living at stone age level like the Sentinelese dodges that problem, but for more advanced civilization there are things that needs to be imported unless you have an actually massive country with a good selection of domestic resources.

Also a big unknown in this calculation is how far the cybernetic technology manages to get. If it's at the lower level, it may be in many ways inferior to flesh, possibly combined with manufacturer shenanigans, having little use rationally beyond medical organ/limb replacements for the old, sick and disabled, in which case it would not be such a major advantage, though it still would be significant if, say, sufficient cyborgization allowed most people functional and working life past the age of around 60-70 into early 100's, nevermind the PR and political concerns.

Meanwhile at the higher end, especially brain-computer interfaces and brain augmentation, that would allow one or few people to control a whole drone swarm, warship or factory complex, this is going to be as much of a crushing advantage as industrial countries had competing with pre-industrial ones.
 
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King Arts

Well-known member
If we go that far with technology, "nuclear deterrent" is no longer the be all end all unless people are retarded, delivery methods are the name of the game if everyone gets really cutthroat competitive, if western leadership wasn't kowtowing to peacenik retards they already would be.

And no, hacking is not the main defense against enemy nuclear weapons, even against current ones, never was, never will be, anti missiles and point defenses are the main point of interest here.
Assuming the kind of computer technology needed to enable this kind of mass transhumanism, those would be very capable indeed.
Can you keep up with the "sword vs shield" race of defenses and delivery methods with such an economic and technological handicap? Maybe... But probably not. In which case, imagine trying to nuke modern USA but all you have are 1950's nuclear bombers and weapons, that's a fitting illustration of the problem at hand.
When I was talking about hacking I was saying how cyberpunk hacking seems to be able to hack almost everything that is electronic and not manual based because even peoples cyberbrains can be hacked to make them hallucinate or body hack them to force them to kill themselves that kind of stuff should be way more protected if you are able to be hacked other things should be easier.

Though I do see what you mean by nuclear bombers vs a modern nation with ICBMs.
>we
"We" have a lot of hang-ups about these things. Imagine what would happen to the Sentinelese if they were located near Russia or China.
Being on Earth is probably enough of a reason for at least few centuries. Doesn't even need to be the great powers of the advanced world. In South America there are controversial cases where mere gangs of illegal miners and poachers wiped out whole primitive tribes for getting in the way of their business.

Another issue is that international economic competition would de facto force such a country into a North Korea like corner in terms of ability to import and export due to not being competitive at all. Living at stone age level like the Sentinelese dodges that problem, but for more advanced civilization there are things that needs to be imported unless you have an actually massive country with a good selection of domestic resources.

Also a big unknown in this calculation is how far the cybernetic technology manages to get. If it's at the lower level, it may be in many ways inferior to flesh, possibly combined with manufacturer shenanigans, having little use rationally beyond medical organ/limb replacements for the old, sick and disabled, in which case it would not be such a major advantage, though it still would be significant if, say, sufficient cyborgization allowed most people functional and working life past the age of around 60-70 into early 100's, nevermind the PR and political concerns.

Meanwhile at the higher end, especially brain-computer interfaces and brain augmentation, that would allow one or few people to control a whole drone swarm, warship or factory complex, this is going to be as much of a crushing advantage as industrial countries had competing with pre-industrial ones.
But China and Russia could wipe out the Sentinnelise and we wouldn’t do anything besides complain. The sentinel people are protected by India and not us they are touchy about colonialism cause it happened to them so they wouldn’t take kindly to colonialism happening in their backyard. But even beyond that most would still ignore them because there isn’t anything useful on those islands.

Your example of North Korea being similar to what we propose also doesn’t apply North Korea is not just isolationist it is actively hostile towards us and we are hostile towards them for a variety of factors. But nations like Tokugawa Japan were able to have a prosperous period of isolation without famine for hundreds of years. You said that being on earth would be reason to occupy it, fine then what about a space colony. Where there is no need for a conflict over resources because it is so plentiful. What would be the benefit of reason for trans humans to conquer normal human O’Neil cylinder? Again resources are plentiful in space the normals are not on strategic land of importance, and there are no unique resources. Honestly taking them over would not be very profitable either since they aren’t cyborgs who are smart enough to do well in the future economy. Most cyborgs would see it as a nature preserve.
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
When I was talking about hacking I was saying how cyberpunk hacking seems to be able to hack almost everything that is electronic and not manual based because even peoples cyberbrains can be hacked to make them hallucinate or body hack them to force them to kill themselves that kind of stuff should be way more protected if you are able to be hacked other things should be easier.
That's a fiction thing, like hitscan guns, single commandos gunning down whole companies of enemy mechanized infantry firing a machinegun from one hand and RPG from another, and martial artists punching and kicking their way through squads of armed police, gangers or infantry. Hacking doesn't work like that. In reality, even most advanced powers still fire million dollar missiles at the electronics packed jet fighters that cost over a hundred millions of dollars, most of it in electronics, instead of just hacking them to turn off the engine and make them crash, or to make their sensors hallucinate that there are no enemies or missiles and just obliviously wait to get shot down.
Even in Ukraine where everyone uses cheapass Chinese civilian drones you or i can get off Alibaba hacking is not prominent at all, jamming and to some degree Chinese government mandated backdoors are.
It is possible to engineer good security into such complex machines in some circumstances, it's just that in many cases the user and/or manufacturer don't care.
For real case of... hostile state grade hacker attack, see Stuxnet.
One day people in your important power plant/factory/research lab notice some of their very important, very expensive and very hard to replace equipment is breaking for mysterious reasons. And then all that is left is investigating which idiot was careless with his personal electronics, or perhaps who's an agent.
Though I do see what you mean by nuclear bombers vs a modern nation with ICBMs.

But China and Russia could wipe out the Sentinnelise and we wouldn’t do anything besides complain. The sentinel people are protected by India and not us they are touchy about colonialism cause it happened to them so they wouldn’t take kindly to colonialism happening in their backyard. But even beyond that most would still ignore them because there isn’t anything useful on those islands.
For the moment, and because these are tiny. The larger you are, and the more time elapses, the more chance someone will find some use and want to take it, even if just for a military base.
Your example of North Korea being similar to what we propose also doesn’t apply North Korea is not just isolationist it is actively hostile towards us and we are hostile towards them for a variety of factors. But nations like Tokugawa Japan were able to have a prosperous period of isolation without famine for hundreds of years.
And look at what happened to it afterwards, and that was when the world was a lot "larger" by being harder to travel and out of the way places could avoid the notice of great power.
You said that being on earth would be reason to occupy it, fine then what about a space colony. Where there is no need for a conflict over resources because it is so plentiful. What would be the benefit of reason for trans humans to conquer normal human O’Neil cylinder? Again resources are plentiful in space the normals are not on strategic land of importance, and there are no unique resources. Honestly taking them over would not be very profitable either since they aren’t cyborgs who are smart enough to do well in the future economy. Most cyborgs would see it as a nature preserve.
Real estate is always to some degree a resource. Close resource asteroids would be more valuable than the more distant ones, radio frequency spectrum rights, specific orbits and lagrange points, there's always going to be something, not necessarily much, and not necessarily obsessed over by everyone, but something...

As the example with illegal miners shows, could even be the outcasts, political crazies or criminals of the transhuman society, which could get incredibly dangerous by our standards, and getting an idea that it's going to be easier to prey on the technologically backwards weirdos than their equally well equipped peers.

But that again courses back towards the problem of keeping with the bleeding edge of technology. What are the chances the cyborg nations won't already be having thousands of space colonies and mining all the nicer asteroids before you scrounge up resources to make a few of your own?
 
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King Arts

Well-known member
That's a fiction thing, like hitscan guns, single commandos gunning down whole companies of enemy mechanized infantry firing a machinegun from one hand and RPG from another, and martial artists punching and kicking their way through squads of armed police, gangers or infantry. Hacking doesn't work like that. In reality, even most advanced powers still fire million dollar missiles at the electronics packed jet fighters that cost over a hundred millions of dollars, most of it in electronics, instead of just hacking them to turn off the engine and make them crash, or to make their sensors hallucinate that there are no enemies or missiles and just obliviously wait to get shot down.
Even in Ukraine where everyone uses cheapass Chinese civilian drones you or i can get off Alibaba hacking is not prominent at all, jamming and to some degree Chinese government mandated backdoors are.
It is possible to engineer good security into such complex machines in some circumstances, it's just that in many cases the user and/or manufacturer don't care.
For real case of... hostile state grade hacker attack, see Stuxnet.
One day people in your important power plant/factory/research lab notice some of their very important, very expensive and very hard to replace equipment is breaking for mysterious reasons. And then all that is left is investigating which idiot was careless with his personal electronics, or perhaps who's an agent.

For the moment, and because these are tiny. The larger you are, and the more time elapses, the more chance someone will find some use and want to take it, even if just for a military base.

And look at what happened to it afterwards, and that was when the world was a lot "larger" by being harder to travel and out of the way places could avoid the notice of great power.

Real estate is always to some degree a resource. Close resource asteroids would be more valuable than the more distant ones, radio frequency spectrum rights, specific orbits and lagrange points, there's always going to be something, not necessarily much, and not necessarily obsessed over by everyone, but something...

As the example with illegal miners shows, could even be the outcasts, political crazies or criminals of the transhuman society, which could get incredibly dangerous by our standards, and getting an idea that it's going to be easier to prey on the technologically backwards weirdos than their equally well equipped peers.

But that again courses back towards the problem of keeping with the bleeding edge of technology. What are the chances the cyborg nations won't already be having thousands of space colonies and mining all the nicer asteroids before you scrounge up resources to make a few of your own?
I mean you can look down on science fiction. But remember that Jules Verne and his stories of flying machines and submarines used to be sci fi now they are reality. As for hacking maybe aggressive hacking will be easier in the future I don't know.

Also military bases are only useful if they are in an important location. If the region is literally a backwater deep in the main transhuman societies borders far away from other transhuman societies then why take it?

Also you are not looking at one other factor by becoming transhuman it's basically glorified suicide, you are replacing yourself and your nation for another group of people to puppet. Would you be willing to let Russians come into Poland and rule everything as long as they promise to keep the same flag and wear the same colors? That is still the end of Poland it's corpse is just being puppeted by something else.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
I’m talking about transhumanism think cyberpunk 2077 as a minimum or ghost in the shell. In that case couldn’t we be Amish and stay human. Or if we had a country just let the “educated” who want cyborg parts to move we don’t want that here. As for your point about conquest that would be a sorry in the short and medium term but as long as you have a nuclear deterrent that can’t be hacked because it’s all manual you should be fine.
I feel obligated to crosspost DocBen's True Russianiam from alternatehistory forum.
DocBen said:
Inspired by Hyperborea and Kemerovo in the TNO timeline:

True Russianiam
The Ukrainian revolution shook the post Soviet territories, with it's ethnocentric, nationalistic, and anti Soviet sentiment. Although it was obviously a turning point in the history of Ukraine, at that time nobody thought that it would inspire similar movements in Russia, which would transform that country. The invasion of the Russian Federation into the Ukraine eventually degraded into a multi faction civil war in both of these countries, which eventually spilled over to the whole post Soviet territories, as competing warlords and parties fought one another for power. The movement that eventually won out emerged was the most bizarre of all.

Born of the existing Russian neopagan movement, and inspired by the ethnocentric, nationalistic, and anti Soviet former state of Ukraine, this ideology is called True Russianism. They are xenophobic not so much against foreigners, or non Slavic minorities of Russia, but against Russians who are not Russianized enough. Their definition of the "True Russian Culture" is pre-Peter the Great culture, the Kievan and Novgorodian Rus. They go about cleansing Russia of Soviet Union heritage and "foreign influences". They are anti cosmopolitan, anti Communist, anti Capitalist, anti atheist, and basically anti everything which was not invented in the medieval Russia.

The cultural police (who wear chain mail and carry real swords instead of rubber batons) enforces these policies, makes everyone wear embroidered robes and flower wreaths, and bans jeans, T shirts, baseball hats, and the like. The medieval Russian language is enforced as the only valid language in schools, and the "Soviet language" is banned. Verbal language tests keep the population in line, where a person may be randomly asked on the street to pronounce an ancient Russian word. The "Soviet" holidays are banned, and True Russian holidays are enforced. Like in OTL Iran, there is a strict dress code, for both women and men, to wear medieval looking Russian clothing. Many insufficiently Russianized buildings were demolished, including almost all of the Soviet apartment blocks. In their place were erected "True Russian" buildings, Tolkien-esque fairy tale architecture, made of wood or concrete imitations of wood, ornate to absurdity.

It's a weird kind of country, a mixture of North Korean hermit kingdom authoritarianism, and Amish self sufficient rural traditionalism, with an ancient Russian fairy tale aesthetic. All computers, televisions, and cars are banned, however refrigerators, tractors, sewing machines, diesel saws, and other tools which make life easier are allowed. There has been an effort to move people out of the cities into the country, and them demolishing the empty city buildings. "Urban culture" and "cosmopolitan culture" has been banned. Most of the population is now rural, living on self sufficient homesteads, as farmers. The people are allowed to own the land, and all mention of the collective farms of the Soviet period has been erased from the history books. Private property is informal, on a first come, first serve basis. People are allowed to go into the wilderness and build houses on their own, deep within the woods, without any governmental regulations.

Other than checking that the only crops grown are non-GMO ones, and combating illegal growing of drug plants, the government doesn't put it's nose into these family farms, and the people are free to grow any fruits and vegetables that they wish. Hunting, gathering, fishing, and foraging is mostly unregulated. Rural and agrarian lifestyles are encouraged by the government. Taxes are reasonable, and economic freedom is allowed, however the only currency that is used are bronze coins, and barter is the default exchange of goods and services in rural areas.

The government is content to keep their people at around a 19th century level of technology. For the people there are cottage industries, which are located in villages, and all clothes, kitchenware, farm tools, etc are produced by craftsmen. More complicated tools, such as the aforementioned diesel saws, tractors, and refrigerators (which are all typically knock offs of East Asian models) are produced by cooperative industries owned by village councils, and many of these small and medium scale industries are propped up by the government. The only heavy industries allowed are government controlled ones, which produce more advanced machinery, such as trains, parts of power plants and other critical infrastructure, solar panels, cargo airships, some approved modern medicines such as aspirin, and an insane amount of military hardware (which is for the most part up to date on modern standards, surprisingly enough) such as bombs, tanks, planes, helicopters, and nuclear weapons, in order to keep the rest of the world from taking over the country, something that the government is extremely paranoid about. Modern technology is limited to only where it is absolutely necessary, in government, military, or critical infrastructure facilities.

The government is also committed to staving off global warming. As mentioned above, all cars are banned. The dirt bike, and horse with buggy have replaced cars for short of medium distances. Wood trains, a modification of steam trains to burn wood chips instead of coal, are used to transport people and goods for long distances. Cargo blimps and helicopters are used by the government to provide transport to remote villages, several times per year. These flying machines are of course powered by Russian oil, from government owned refineries. All plastics are banned. Coal is used freely as a fuel source for government owned factories. Most of the electricity is produced by dams, solar panels, wind turbines, some coal plants, and the few extant nuclear power planets still in operation. All of this is still not enough, so most of the electricity only goes towards essential infrastructure, government owned factories, medical centers, the greatly reduced in size urban areas, and some other essential areas. Most of the villages aren't connected to the grid at all, and either make their electricity sporadically by use of solar panels, wind turbines, and portable diesel generators, or live without electricity at all, relying on wood stoves for heating.

The country of True Russia is closed off to the outside world as a giant hermit kingdom, it's economy being completely autarkic. The government is concerned about people escaping the country, and also about foreign ideas coming into the country, spoiling the "cultural purity" of this new civilization that they have created. This policy has become even more stricter with the rise of technologies such as transhumanism, augmentation, and genetic modification in the rest of the world, and the government is paranoid of the "cyborgs" and "GMO people" overrunning their civilization.

Civil liberties are a mixed bag. Computers and any modern technologies are banned, as is modern clothing, all plastics, junk food, and any leftovers of Soviet, Capitalist, or cosmopolitan culture. The government is very much North Korean like, and there is no semblance of a parliament. Villages are for the most part self governed though, however they have to attend government mandated "ancient Russian holidays". Arranged marriages (by parents) and large families are the norm, anything else is forbidden. A standardized form of the medieval Russian language is enforced, as are medieval Russian dress codes. Outwardly non traditional architecture is banned. Non Russian minorities have more freedom in cultural aspects, as long as they look "medieval enough" to government inspectors. Russians are subject to more thorough cultural and ideological tests. They are extremely superficial however, and LARPers and cosplayers have been able to outwit inspectors.

Compared to the rural areas, the cities have more modern amneties such as electricity and indoor plumbing, but life there is more regimented and subject to these cultural regulations, and curfews after sunset. People in rural areas generally are able to fly under the radar, especially if they go live in the forest as a hermit. Entertainment, except for government approved traditional cultural ceremonies, is banned as a "cosmopolitan" thing, as are restaurants, bars, and cafes, so that people would eat home cooked food only. Street food is allowed however, as are farmer's markets. Cities have population quotas in efforts to make most of the people live in rural areas. Cell phones are banned, and instead walkie talkies and 1950s phones are used. Productivity is a virtue, and anyone who is visibly slacking off, wandering around, squatting around, or littering may be whipped by the police on the spot.

While the government basically forces people to have a rural lifestyle, they don't interfere with farming, hunting, fishing, or other small scale economic activities. Although the urban areas are authoritarian and regimented, much of the forests outside of critical infrastructure or military facilities are completely ungoverned. In fact, the rural regions of this country are some of the most free areas of the world in this timeline. By the late 21st century, in this timeline, most of the other countries in the world have devolved into dystopian technocratic surveillance states, fear of which keeps the paranoid neo medieval True Russia state unified. An exodus of Amish people, Native Americans, traditional Europeans, and others have been accepted into Russia, as long as thorough medical inspections reveal that they are in fact humans, and not "cyborgs" or "terminators", as are most citizens in all other countries except the "Hermit Empire".
DocBen said:
Now that I think of it, the state of True Russia is a kind of Folky-ism, deliberately imposed by the state. So the state only exists to protect the borders both physical and informational, keep the infrastructure up and running, control the cities to keep them from degenerating, and make sure that the people stay in line of the folksy ideal. It's similar to North Korea, but extremely traditional, if a bit superficially so. It's an ultranationalist state, which is too busy making sure that the cultural and ideological purity of the main nationality is kept in check, to worry about the other nationalities. It's a kind of extreme reactionary state against the Russia of previous regimes, as well as against the rest of the world. So it's main goal is wiping out communism, capitalism, cosmopolitanism, liberalism, transhumanism, or any other foreign isms out of the Russian population.

The time frame of the True Russian state is somewhere from the mid 21st century onwards. In this timeline, the rest of the world eventually became a Draka esque nightmarish cyberpunk dystopia, ruled by Google/Bill Gates/WEF types, total digital surveillance states, with social/carbon credit scores, where people have to get cybernetic implants in order to even participate in society. So the True Russians are against pretty much the rest of the world, as a neo medieval Hermit Empire, with loads of nuclear weapons and EMP weapons. They aren't trying to take over the world, so maybe TNO Hyperborea isn't an exact analogy, but they are just trying to survive and preserve their civilization. They do a fair amount of surveillance themselves, but this surveillance is strictly non-digital, with police brandishing halberds coming to your door to check up on you every so often, and that's only in the cities.

Rural areas are much freer, simply because the paranoid xenophobic government doesn't have all the time in the world, and the rural residents are deemed "traditional enough" by default, without the need to check up on them for the possible presence of "cosmopolitan transhumanist mentality" or lack thereof. They don't have the internet there anyways. It's a good place, if you want to live the government approved medieval like conservative homesteader lifestyle. This is why American preppers and Amish are regarded by the True Russian government as model immigrants. But someone who is caught playing Dungeons & Dragons on their virtual reality headset may be placed into a real dungeon for an indefinite amount of time, without any semblance of a trial.

The ideology and rhetoric of the True Russian state is a mixture of Eurasianism, ultra nationalism and traditionalism, organic ruralism, anti-globalism, and anti-technocracy. The power of the government is held mostly by paranoia of the outside world, of the globalists, transhumanists, cyborgs, 9G antennas, and what not. The entire Russian border is surrounded by walls, barbed wire fences, and other fortifications, which is actually a pretty impressive feat. Since nobody from within Russia has even gone outside of the border, they tend to believe what the government says, that it's literally the Borg from Star Trek out there, which while an exaggeration, is not entirely wrong. The entire country has a fortress-at-siege state mentality.

Ethnic and cultural diversity is allowed, as long as it's traditional and close enough to True Russian ideals. Fortunately, this includes the vast majority of the ethnic groups already living in Russia. Traditional religions other than the state endorsed Slavic Neo-Pagan faith, such as Orthodoxy Christianity, Amish Christianity, Buddhism, Caucasian Islam, Zoroastrianism, and other ones are tolerated as well, as long as they enforce traditional mentalities. Well religion is actually banned in the rest of the world, in favor of atheism/technocracy, so such tolerance isn't a particularly huge feat.

The government uses religion a lot in it's propaganda, claiming that the rest of the world is under the rule of the antichrist, that artificial intelligence is actually a demonic alien technology, and so on. They say that if True Russia will be able to maintain it's purity for long enough, then God will punish the rest of the world. In reality, if True Russia would be able to hold on for another half century or so, then the crazy experiments of the technocratic elites will most likely cause the global system to implode from it's own weight and egregiously inefficient mismanagement. Then the True Russians will attempt to cleanse the world of plastic, electronic gadgets, and the "non-human anymore cyborgs".

Believe it or not, this ideology is based on other ideologies and social movements already existing in OTL Russia.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
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I mean you can look down on science fiction. But remember that Jules Verne and his stories of flying machines and submarines used to be sci fi now they are reality. As for hacking maybe aggressive hacking will be easier in the future I don't know.
Yes, you don't know. But those who know, doubt it. Such an advantage of sword over shield in cyberwarfare, if ever possible, would provoke a tightening of security protocols to a point when it's no longer possible, even with some loss to efficiency, unless you would want criminals, trolls and terrorists casually ruining everything, which no sane society would choose, because someone would casually ruin everything for some reason if it was that easy.
Also military bases are only useful if they are in an important location. If the region is literally a backwater deep in the main transhuman societies borders far away from other transhuman societies then why take it?
What is an important location changes with times and politics. Sometimes the range radius of particular missile or aircraft model imposed upon a map can catch something important, and that alone makes the island important as a place to base such missiles or aircraft alone.
Also you are not looking at one other factor by becoming transhuman it's basically glorified suicide, you are replacing yourself and your nation for another group of people to puppet. Would you be willing to let Russians come into Poland and rule everything as long as they promise to keep the same flag and wear the same colors? That is still the end of Poland it's corpse is just being puppeted by something else.
Depends greatly on degree and type of transhumanism. Every developed nation in existence now is in some way different from the same nation 100 ago, how is that different? Most are taller, fatter, have different hobbies and professions, some even speak in a slightly different way, and let's not even get into prevailing socio-cultural opinions.
So, what stops 150 IQ people with olympian physique and ability to communicate with computers at the speed of thought rather than the speed of keyboard use from being considered the same nation? For all practical purposes they might be less alien to us than an average millenial office worker's life is to the average village dwelling farmer of 100 years ago, but at the same time no one is saying that all first world nations got destroyed and remade into some puppet wearing the same colors.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
Point being, doomsday prepping for the singularity on a national scale with a nuclear deterrent to hold off invasion and autarky to prevent race-to-the-bottom economic competition with robot and transhuman workers who're objectively more capable than baseline human ones is completely different from doing so on an individual scale where you can't really do anything. No nuclear-armed nations have stated their willingness to do so and why would they, national leadership would be one of the very few political classes who'd stand to benefit from cheap robot labor and mindlessly loyal robot security.
Greedy_Celery3551 said:
 
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