ASOIAF/GOT The 'Realism' of the World of ASOIAF/GOT

[Aldarion]

Medieval knights, allegedly highly concerned about being sent to hell for their misdeeds, thought nothing about chasing Pope Gregory VII into Hadrian's mausoleum and keeping him under siege at the behest of excommunicated King of the Germans Henry IV.

That is not an example of lack of piety, but rather an example of medieval concept of just rule and legality. Unlike some other faiths, it was always known in Christianity that Pope is not "mouthpiece of God", and thus can err. Reason why what you noted happened was that Gregory's second excommunication was widely felt to be unjust and, thus, illegitimate. Yet when he excommunicated Henry first time around, Henry was forced by his nobles to take a walk (to Canossa).

 

[Firebat]

Unlike some other faiths, it was always known in Christianity that Pope is not "mouthpiece of God", and thus can err.

Actually, modern Catholic Church insists on Pope's infallibility as a part of doctrine.
Admittedly, it's all a part of larger discussion about Papal supremacy which modern Papacy is quite content to keep on the down low, because (at least for a moment) it is more convenient to let parts of the Church larger degree of autonomy.
As opposed to medieval papacy that grasped at power to a ludicrous decree, turning anything into a pretext to claim even more authority.

Yet when he excommunicated Henry first time around, Henry was forced by his nobles to take a walk (to Canossa).

Previously, on Holy Roman Empire:
Henry engaged in attempts to centralize the realm and strengthen his power at the expense of Imperial Princes. As often happened to his successors, he let initial success go to his head and overreached, resulting in negative reaction by Imperial Princes and excommunication by the Pope.

However, when Henry was excommunicated, his nobles did not force him to take a walk. Instead, Henry spent almost a year gallivanting around and embarrassing himself - until his inability to contain Saxonians became clear. Not to be too harsh on Henry, that struggle continued on and off well into another century, so he wasn't the only one who got stuck in that pile of crap.

Then and only then did the Princes experience a surge in Christian feeling and decided to pressure Henry into reconciling with the Pope. They gathered in a meeting to discuss Henry's behavior as King. In a surprising turn of events, their first complaint was Henry's ungodly posture towards the Holy Father and overall un-Christian....

I know, I'm hilarious. Of course it wasn't. Their first complaint was that Henry hadn't involved them into Imperial governance. Aka tried to centralize the realm and stop Princes from running around like sword-armed monkeys in a madhouse. Then there was a negotiation, one which Henry wisely led at a head of his army mustered in Oppenheim. And then there was a walk to Canossa as a part of overall agreement between Henry and Imperial Princes, because the Princes benefited from cutting Henry down a notch. It secured their position - or at least that was the plan.

But Henry adapted, made concessions to certain noble parties and went for Round Two.

In short, it was never about whether Henry's excommunication was just or not. It was all, from beginning to the end, about power and politics. Imperial nobility's supposed feelings on whether Pope's treatment of Henry was just or not were too dependent on their own ability to benefit from siding with either Henry or the Pope for it to be a matter of justice.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Faith of the Seven is not magical, if that's what you are implying.
Then again, so are all other faiths. The Old Gods, the Drowned God, the Red God - they do not grant power or manifest themselves in any practical way. A few of their followers that have magic, but it's a case of a wizard being religious, not religion guaranteeing D&D-style divine powers.

"This magic has nothing to do with my god, now everyone stand around and wait while I chant my god's name fifty seven times or the magic wont work."

 

[CarlManvers2019]

"This magic has nothing to do with my god, now everyone stand around and wait while I chant my god's name fifty seven times or the magic wont work."

I think the more simplistic or less eldritch the “god” being worshipped is, the less likely it “exists” in-universe

Though guys like the Drowned God and Lord of Light may not exactly be as what their worshippers believe or even have the same doctrines as their worshippers

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Just thought, since it’s more or less extremely frequent for nobility to engage in lots of drinking and whoring and having bastards with ladies their sons’ age and such

How often do you guys think it is for Westerosi Nobility to secretly engage in the following:
1) Literally hunting down smallfolk
2) Doing cannibalism
3) Worshipping daemonic or eldritch horrors
4) Randomly abducting and torturing smallfolk to insanity
5) Randomly setting afire to smaller smallfolk villages
6) Doing necrophilia

And other atrocities and things only those with sufficient riches and power could do

Ramsay and Roose can’t just be relatively rare in GRRM’s world

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Just thought, since it’s more or less extremely frequent for nobility to engage in lots of drinking and whoring and having bastards with ladies their sons’ age and such

How often do you guys think it is for Westerosi Nobility to secretly engage in the following:
1) Literally hunting down smallfolk

Unlikely. Even Bolton looked on with distaste at Ramsay's actions. Besides him, the only other similar example is the Mountain/his possy; and again it was considered abhorrent by everyone who found out about it.

2) Doing cannibalism

Only rumored to occur on Skagos and gets a strong negative reaction.

3) Worshipping daemonic or eldritch horrors

The Drowned God is already one of those. Really depends on the religion. Unlikely given the prevalence of the Faith and Old Gods.

4) Randomly abducting and torturing smallfolk to insanity

Ramsay is the only one who can be said to do that.

5) Randomly setting afire to smaller smallfolk villages

Never? I mean burning down other lords villages is an act of war and isn't done unless it serves a purpose, and burning down your own villages is just bad for your bank account..

6) Doing necrophilia

Someone, somewhere has probably fucked a corpse.

Ramsay and Roose can’t just be relatively rare in GRRM’s world

Yes, they can.

You listed a bunch of stuff that is 1) basically an instant death sentence if it becomes public knowledge and 2) is pointlessly evil for the point of being pointlessly evil. That the odd individual every few generations might be in a position and with the desire can't be discounted, but if it was occuring at any kind of scale or with any degree of frequency then it would be a very different setting.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

You listed a bunch of stuff that is 1) basically an instant death sentence if it becomes public knowledge and 2) is pointlessly evil for the point of being pointlessly evil. That the odd individual every few generations might be in a position and with the desire can't be discounted, but if it was occuring at any kind of scale or with any degree of frequency then it would be a very different setting.

Admittedly I was thinking of characters being like this dude

The Count

Divine providence cannot be thwarted... by man's efforts.The Count The Count was an apostle nobleman presiding over a territory which Guts visited during the swordsman's two-year war against demonkind. He ultimately died in a bout with the Black Swordsman, dragged into the Vortex of Souls after...

berserk.fandom.com

I don’t recall this dude being said to be remotely reviled by his fellow lords

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Just thought, since it’s more or less extremely frequent for nobility to engage in lots of drinking and whoring and having bastards with ladies their sons’ age and such

How often do you guys think it is for Westerosi Nobility to secretly engage in the following:
1) Literally hunting down smallfolk
2) Doing cannibalism
3) Worshipping daemonic or eldritch horrors
4) Randomly abducting and torturing smallfolk to insanity
5) Randomly setting afire to smaller smallfolk villages
6) Doing necrophilia

And other atrocities and things only those with sufficient riches and power could do

Ramsay and Roose can’t just be relatively rare in GRRM’s world

Definitionally if entire regions exist where these things are tacitly acceptable, it cant be contained neatly to those regions. We know Littlefinger can easily sell prostitutes to torture dungeons after all.

 

[Navarro]

So the Faith of the Seven are nothing?

The worldbook and some stuff in the main text implies that they're a fake religion invented by the White Walkers.

 

[UltimatePaladin]

The worldbook and some stuff in the main text implies that they're a fake religion invented by the White Walkers.

I'm sorry, but what the hell?

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

I'm sorry, but what the hell?

Fatty probably chortled to himself like a pig. "Take that, DAD! Your religion IS FAKE AND EVIL!!1!"

 

[Deleted member 88]

The worldbook and some stuff in the main text implies that they're a fake religion invented by the White Walkers.

That’s not true? The faith of the seven isn’t from Westeros.

 

[Navarro]

That’s not true? The faith of the seven isn’t from Westeros.

Even if you're not going to reach that far, it's telling that it's the one major religion in the setting that lacks any supernatural power.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Even if you're not going to reach that far, it's telling that it's the one major religion in the setting that lacks any supernatural power.

Well yes, martin is an ex catholic. And so like most of his fellow ex Catholics he has a bit of an axe to grind.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Admittedly I was thinking of characters being like this dude
I don’t recall this dude being said to be remotely reviled by his fellow lords

Thats a very unfair way of looking at it, it's not like we get any commentary on him whatsoever, or really very much commentary from the nobles on anything at all. The few short conversations we see nobles have are generally about specific events they're currently dealing with. Further, it's not like he's livestreaming his crimes to the nobility, it would take a good while for anyone to realize he'd gone violently insane, considering the war and slow speed of communication.
It's not even clear when he became an apostle, and we know he was relatively normal before then.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Thats a very unfair way of looking at it, it's not like we get any commentary on him whatsoever, or really very much commentary from the nobles on anything at all. The few short conversations we see nobles have are generally about specific events they're currently dealing with. Further, it's not like he's livestreaming his crimes to the nobility, it would take a good while for anyone to realize he'd gone violently insane, considering the war and slow speed of communication.
It's not even clear when he became an apostle, and we know he was relatively normal before then.

He was around for the Eclipse, I recall

That said, I’d be incredibly suspicious if I hear that the nearby castletown has had a sudden number of extremely violent deaths

Not really sure which country that dude was in or what country the Snake Baron was in, nearby Lords finding out that their neighbor suddenly went or was replaced by someone who’s gone frankly insane and heard that the population is slowly if not rapidly declining would get suspicious

When I think about it, I guess Clegane Keep probably didn’t have many Smallfolk, since Gregor needs to have his bloodlust frequently sated....maybe Tywin allows him to go off and massacre other Lords’ smallfolk and pays said Lords off and reminds them “They’re just smallfolk, here’s some gold to compensate”

I’m guessing Gregor and his Mountain’s Men were killing and brutalizing 1-2 thousand Smallfolk per year

 

[Navarro]

On another note, look at holidays in ASOIAF - medieval Europe was awash with Saint's days and feasts. No parallel to this exists in ASOIAF. There's not even a bloody harvest festival, i.e. a human universal.

Come to think of it, the only religious myth in the story is the legend of Azor Ahai in its various variations. Other than that, it's a total void of ... everything.

 

[Firebat]

"This magic has nothing to do with my god, now everyone stand around and wait while I chant my god's name fifty seven times or the magic wont work."

That's exactly the kind of thing I would say were I a lone wizard trying to convert ignorant savages to my religion.

If mason and sculptor can utilize their gifts to overawe unbelievers with magnificent cathdral, why can't wizard put on a bit of show?

Even if you're not going to reach that far, it's telling that it's the one major religion in the setting that lacks any supernatural power.

Is it?
Essos alone is choke full of various religions, dozens of them. The only ones who may have supernatural power are Red God and Many faced god, and even those are pretty ambiguous.
In Westeros, you have:
- Drowned God (Judaism/Christianity) - no supernatural powers
- Old Gods - debatable
- Seven (Catholic) - no supernatural powers

Most religions in Martin's world have no supernatural underpinning, Faith of the Seven is part of the rule, not an exception.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

He was around for the Eclipse, I recall

That said, I’d be incredibly suspicious if I hear that the nearby castletown has had a sudden number of extremely violent deaths

Not really sure which country that dude was in or what country the Snake Baron was in, nearby Lords finding out that their neighbor suddenly went or was replaced by someone who’s gone frankly insane and heard that the population is slowly if not rapidly declining would get suspicious

When I think about it, I guess Clegane Keep probably didn’t have many Smallfolk, since Gregor needs to have his bloodlust frequently sated....maybe Tywin allows him to go off and massacre other Lords’ smallfolk and pays said Lords off and reminds them “They’re just smallfolk, here’s some gold to compensate”

I’m guessing Gregor and his Mountain’s Men were killing and brutalizing 1-2 thousand Smallfolk per year

That kind of stuff is staggering in its arrogance. You would expect lords to try and ambush Clegano and turn him into a pincushion for massacring yet another of his villages.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That kind of stuff is staggering in its arrogance. You would expect lords to try and ambush Clegano and turn him into a pincushion for massacring yet another of his villages.

Would it be wrong or too edgy for Tywin to offer both pay and say they could go off and sack their own villages for fun together with the Mountain?

I mean on average it looks like most Lords can barely even give a damn if their own smallfolk are massacred so long as it doesn’t affect their coffers too much

What’s stopping Lords from doing stuff like the nobility of Akame Ga Kiru and going into the slums whilst riding a horse intent on randomly spearing people?