Atarlost

Well-known member
All of these were Wars over territory (Falklands, Kuwait, Crimea/dombras, Kosovo) involving nuclear powers. If the factions involved had real space assets, how do any of these conflicts change, and does it negate the need for surface forces? My gut inclination is no.
All of these were wars over territory between nations on the same planet. Most shared land borders and the one that didn't was a one sided curbstomp where the lesser naval power never had any real chance. Where ground forces need a carefully crafted handwavium-unobtanium balance to keep them relevant except as tripwire or anti-insurgency occupation forces is when the nations are on different planets.

Space nations are islands or archipelagos and every square meter of planetary surface is within cannonshot of the navy. An army can no more conquer a planet without at least contesting orbital space than Napoleon's army could swim the English Channel and defending a planet with a ground army is like defending some tiny little atoll from an enemy with ships that can fire accurately farther than the diameter of your island and doing so with neither aircraft nor ships of your own. Not impossible if the technological limitations are set up just right to properly support the story you want to tell, but the default science fiction assumptions aren't.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
All of these were wars over territory between nations on the same planet. Most shared land borders and the one that didn't was a one sided curbstomp where the lesser naval power never had any real chance. Where ground forces need a carefully crafted handwavium-unobtanium balance to keep them relevant except as tripwire or anti-insurgency occupation forces is when the nations are on different planets.

Space nations are islands or archipelagos and every square meter of planetary surface is within cannonshot of the navy. An army can no more conquer a planet without at least contesting orbital space than Napoleon's army could swim the English Channel and defending a planet with a ground army is like defending some tiny little atoll from an enemy with ships that can fire accurately farther than the diameter of your island and doing so with neither aircraft nor ships of your own. Not impossible if the technological limitations are set up just right to properly support the story you want to tell, but the default science fiction assumptions aren't.

That's actually a super neat way of looking at things. Plus you can think of campaigns like Rabaul, Okinawa and Iwo Jima and Peleliu or Tarawa etc where almost the entirety of the terrain was able to be targeted by naval gunfire (plus obviously air operations). The US Navy could literally pound every square foot of Tarawa or Iwo Jima with high explosives but the vast majority of the troops would still survive and could survive for weeks or months off of their stored supplies. So you still had to send in troops to root it out.

Conversely you wouldn't see any operable villages on Iwo Jima (thankfully Kurabayashi evacuated the civilians) because they could be blasted into oblivion as well.

Meanwhile there are larger islands like New Britain and Okinawa, the former barely populated wilderness and the latter fairly populated but both with large swaths of the territory open to naval gunfire but for reasons again, you still had to invest significant amount of ground forces onto the island.

Now in the case of some of these islands like Peleliu, Okinawa or Iwo Jima, it was to facilitate future military operations, while Rabaul on New Britain was just isolated and bypassed, which could also see reasoning in a classic Science Fiction Interstellar Conflict. Also there was some consideration to limit civilian casualties in places like Okinawa but also especially in say the Philippine Islands which had to be liberated.

And on sufficiently large islands like New Britain or Boungainville the Allies were able to land troops and contest the territory without either being driven off OR having to conquer the entire island.

If we want to take the metaphor (reasonably) further in the modern day amphibious landings have become far, far more challenging thanks to not just the ability to create extensive fortifications (which can be mitigated somewhat by improved guidance on ordinance as well as massive payloads and ground penetrating munitions (as well as nukes) but also in how deadly missiles and guided rockets and drones can be on the invaders storming onto the beach from landing craft or flying overhead from airplanes to be paradropped or helilifted.

You can toss in things like ground to space missiles or energy weapon emplacements to reflect coastal batteries, defense satellites, homing drones or loitering munitions hidden amongst the space trash or asteroid belts as minefields. Does the island have its own airstrips and fighter craft and thus needs to be suppressed like the planet with its own space capable fighters and bombers or worse, FTL capable ships operating out of the planet?

You can even imagine a planet with shielding with an island that has magical energy shielding that somehow needs to be overcome. If WW2 islands had magical bullshit energy shields would it require a Point Du Hoc style Ranger Raid to eliminate them? Or would you just need to bring in more shipborne firepower to whittle it down if it operates like a battery? Or drop a damn atomic bomb on it to bring it down?

The other thing to look at is island logistics compared with spaceborne logistics which of course is dependent on a lot of factors. The South and Central Pacific had terrible logistical infrastructure. Everything had to be brought to Australia or Hawaii and then moved forward in massive quantities that local islanders in some places conjured up the myths of 'Cargo Cults' or otherwise there were huge anchorages created with hundreds of ships and tens of thousands of troops and sailors readying for campaigns.

Imagining two space opera style Empires fighting and it could take years to marshal a force of arms similar to that feat. Like how the United States advances between mid-1942 to mid-1944 was rather negligible then from mid-1944 on to the end of the war in mid-1945 almost seemed to have an inertia of its own because the US military reached a sufficient mass of resources and technology (and tactics) to streamline their conquests.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
A large part of the reluctance to use nukes come with the psychological and political dimension of radioactive contamination combined with the "wherever wind blows" caveat.
When you fight over whole planets and/or have DEWs with power measured in kilotons or megatons, it's completely different.
Nukes don't make every other weapon irrelevant, but nukes\orbital bombardment do double as superheavy artillery\air support if you are willing to use them as such.

True, what there we are also talking about a kind of conflict that is very historically rare: Most of the time combat would likely be over limited objectives, such as the earlier examples. Were megaton weaponry is likely to be generally counter productive. Most wars are not genocidal enough that collateral damage/proportional force are not concerns, at least historically.

@Atarlost , @Husky_Khan has already made the good point at length about how much land force has historically been necessary to take those Atols, I would like to make a related argument that planets are still big: just because spacecraft can have long range and doesn't necessarily cancel that out.

For an example, lets assume a low orbit weapons platform at roughly 400 km up. View to horizon is about 2,000 km. Lets assume your weapon system had a 2,000 km range, for ease of comparison: an orbit at that height has a period of roughly 100 minutes at 7 km/s. So, assuming that full 2,000 km range an a good turret for 360 coverage, that weapon system is in visual range of that target, optimally, for 4,000/7= 571 seconds, or roughly 10 minutes. Which means keeping total oversight from such a low position requires 10 weapon stations. And this assumes completely unobstructed views: if, for example, mountain ranges exist, or just a valley, there's going to be fairly extensive shadows.

This however also only works if your target is on the equator, any other location and you have the issue of the terrain under the orbit changing frequently:

File:Polar orbit.ogv - Wikipedia

Depending on range and cover, it seems like it can take somewhere around 1-10 days for a satellite to cover the same terrain.

A wide-covering satellite like MODIS, pictured above, with a swath of 2300 km (or 1400 mi), can capture the entire globe in 1-2 days at a resolution of 250 m (820 ft). One of the Sentinel-2 satellites, designed to cover 290 km (180 mi) at 10 m (33 ft) resolution, will take 10 days to take a new image of a specific area under the same viewing angle. With both satellites in the Sentinel-2 constellation (S2A and S2B), this revisit time can be reduced to 5 days
Skywatch

Thus, if you want 24/7 coverage of a particular area, your talking about 150 to 1,500 weapons platforms. This is part of why brilliant pebble or Starlink both involve thousands of satellites. If these weapon systems have the performance and cost of a fighterjet, you thus would have 1,500 systems producing roughly a 100-200 sorties a day. Meanwhile, having that in terrestrial based fighters would let you carry out, well, 1,500 sorties a day. Maybe 3,000 depending on turn around. So, for equivalent cost you can sustain a 10-20x higher operational tempo and much more concentration of force and sustained pressure.

Such low placed weapon systems have the same problems as aircraft as well, being not that hard to shoot: sounding rockets show you can get pretty high altitude with fairly small rockets:

Japanese_sounding_rockets_shapes-01.jpg


anti orbit truck mounted missiles is perfectly doable, and of course you have air launched anti orbit is quite achievable too.

800px-ASM-135_ASAT_5.jpg


In which case the higher sortie rate of ground based aircraft vs conventional low orbit craft becomes a problem. If you have a 150 low orbit weapons platforms vs 150 fighter craft, on the specific airbase of a region the aircraft can mass easier against individual targets (launch 10 Anti-Orbit missiles with radar and jamming support to one). If the orbital platforms group up, avoiding them becomes much easier and overall presence is greatly reduced.

Many of these issues can be greatly reduced by being higher: larger field of view, harder for light weapons like truck or fighter mounted missiles to catch something by surprise if you have a 30 minute, or even days warning, rather than 1-10 minutes, depending upon firing angle and missile speed.

But, further distance also makes counter surface some amount less effective too.

Low Orbit really does have many of the same problems of aircraft: the ground forces actually have a lot of advantages against objects parked there: something in low orbit of earth is covering a path of roughly 40,000 km of surface area. If the enemy anti Orbit weapon has a range of 500 km, that means every 100 minutes your vehicle passes over 40 million square km of territory that could be hiding a truck, low flying plane, or submarine. At the same time, from such a low altitude you can only see roughly 12 million square km at any one time, meaning there are 498 million square km of surface you are not currently looking at. Assuming your craft can meaningfully observe 12 million km of land simultaneously in real time, a tall ask.

Much safer in the dirt: no one on the ground can directly observe you from much more than a couple of km away, hills, buildings, and trees give you cover from longer range observation, and is just a generally noisier environment in general, and if your landing zone is at all reasonably chosen, your likely near something that the enemy would be opposed to casually nuking.

And now of course you have all the advantages against the enemies Low Orbit assets the ground forces would have had against your forces parked in Low Orbit: finding a guy in a forest with a telescope is hard. Using a telescope to spot satellites and weapons platforms in orbit against the cold backdrop of space, much less difficult.

If the enemy can achieve a landing in some force in, say, Sydney Australia, then by basic orbital mechanics more or less every orbital asset of the planet will overfly them in roughly 24 hours to a week, maybe a month if I understand the relationship between range and orbital mechanics.

Which means either the planet has to accept aircraft operating in an active air defense zone casualties, which can be high: Vietnam for example had a loss of roughly 0.4 per 1,000 sorties. WWII had a horrific 9.7 per 1,000 sorties. So, operating in LEO long term might drive some frightful attrition. Or you could have your assets move higher, which pushes for more expensive, high performance platforms, and makes the orbital systems less effective in supporting planetary operations.

I think its better to think of low orbit here as a now mans land, rather than something permanently occupied. Dropships want to do either high speed passes, or at least very elliptical orbits: you only get into low orbit as short as necessary to drop troops. If you need a quarter orbit (roughly 10,000 km) you angle the orbit so you enter in the Indian Ocean and are heading out by Somoa. Your exposure is limited to 10,000 km^2 instead of 40,000, and if you can do it at interplanetary speeds of say 20 km/s, your through the maximum danger zone in 8 minutes, rather than circling the globe in a predictable fashion every 100 minutes. And because your not passing over every bit of land every week or so, you can choose relatively safe positions: the Indian ocean to Somoa is only overland for about 4,000km of it is overland. With a more polar approach the entire overland portion of the dropships travel could be over Antarctica, with the drop pods just adding a bit of lateral motion.

Defenders likewise would probably prefer some combination higher performance more endurant plateforms, likely in higher orbits, while maintaining a surge capacity: when the counter attack to push the enemy out of Australia is mobilized, 10 Falcon 9 equivalents might be available to surge 500 communications and recognizance satellites over the area: gives initially a very strong observation of the area, and if the enemy anti-orbital weapons are able to take out 10 of those a day, well, 500 gives you some 50 days to win the ground battle before low orbit support is exhausted.

Edit: I see errors, but I spent way to much time on this and need to call it a night. I think its still mostly readable, and hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow to clean up the mistakes.
 
Last edited:

Doomsought

Well-known member
A large part of the reluctance to use nukes come with the psychological and political dimension of radioactive contamination combined with the "wherever wind blows" caveat.
When you fight over whole planets and/or have DEWs with power measured in kilotons or megatons, it's completely different.
Nukes don't make every other weapon irrelevant, but nukes\orbital bombardment do double as superheavy artillery\air support if you are willing to use them as such.
You are fialing to consider one important factor: Why does the invader want that planet.

Unless the invader is a genocidal xenophobe, there is something on that planet that the invader wants. Taking custody of that thing is their victory condition. If that thing gets destroyed, they cannot win, all they can due is inflict additional losses out of spite. This means there will be a set of exclusion zones around their primary objective(s) where orbital fire support will be unavailable. The defenders will of course try to identify the objective and pull most of their defenses in around it.

A general bombardment of the planet outside of the exclusion zone is not a great ides, not only are you wasting ammo, but you are also cutting off the defender's line of retreat. If they have no escape, they will fight to the last breath and worse yet you have done nothing to prevent your own defeat. As long as the defenders control your objective, they can destroy it to make you lose out of spite. The military police in a society that allows casual genocide will then have a discussion with you about your failure.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
True, what there we are also talking about a kind of conflict that is very historically rare: Most of the time combat would likely be over limited objectives, such as the earlier examples. Were megaton weaponry is likely to be generally counter productive. Most wars are not genocidal enough that collateral damage/proportional force are not concerns, at least historically.

@Atarlost , @Husky_Khan has already made the good point at length about how much land force has historically been necessary to take those Atols, I would like to make a related argument that planets are still big: just because spacecraft can have long range and doesn't necessarily cancel that out.

For an example, lets assume a low orbit weapons platform at roughly 400 km up. View to horizon is about 2,000 km. Lets assume your weapon system had a 2,000 km range, for ease of comparison: an orbit at that height has a period of roughly 100 minutes at 7 km/s. So, assuming that full 2,000 km range an a good turret for 360 coverage, that weapon system is in visual range of that target, optimally, for 4,000/7= 571 seconds, or roughly 10 minutes. Which means keeping total oversight from such a low position requires 10 weapon stations. And this assumes completely unobstructed views: if, for example, mountain ranges exist, or just a valley, there's going to be fairly extensive shadows.
Why would ground to orbit weapons have such strict range limits? With any sort of kinetic or missile weapon, the orbit to ground range is yes. Missiles could also have reentry vehicles capable of controlled atmospheric flight.
Such low placed weapon systems have the same problems as aircraft as well, being not that hard to shoot: sounding rockets show you can get pretty high altitude with fairly small rockets:

Japanese_sounding_rockets_shapes-01.jpg


anti orbit truck mounted missiles is perfectly doable, and of course you have air launched anti orbit is quite achievable too.
Poor comparison...
"Getting there" is only one of the problem, a missile interceptor needs to get there fast and hit the target.
Here's an actual anti-missile and it's quite a bit bigger:
800px-ASM-135_ASAT_5.jpg


In which case the higher sortie rate of ground based aircraft vs conventional low orbit craft becomes a problem. If you have a 150 low orbit weapons platforms vs 150 fighter craft, on the specific airbase of a region the aircraft can mass easier against individual targets (launch 10 Anti-Orbit missiles with radar and jamming support to one). If the orbital platforms group up, avoiding them becomes much easier and overall presence is greatly reduced.

Many of these issues can be greatly reduced by being higher: larger field of view, harder for light weapons like truck or fighter mounted missiles to catch something by surprise if you have a 30 minute, or even days warning, rather than 1-10 minutes, depending upon firing angle and missile speed.
Well if the defending side has fortified airbases, that's one thing the attacker would be using their megaton orbit to ground weapons against.
 

Crom's Black Blade

Well-known member
Would be curious on how practical/impractical utilizing an EMP weapon might be as part of the lead up to invasion. The military would be hard-wired against it but I don't know how practical that would be to do for the civilian sector.

Best case scenario you'd plunge a large swath of the planet's population into a virtual dark age causing chaos and rioting from lack of services to transportation of food and other goods being disrupted. Further hinder and tie up the planet's resources as they try to deal with that and my invading army.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Would be curious on how practical/impractical utilizing an EMP weapon might be as part of the lead up to invasion. The military would be hard-wired against it but I don't know how practical that would be to do for the civilian sector.

Best case scenario you'd plunge a large swath of the planet's population into a virtual dark age causing chaos and rioting from lack of services to transportation of food and other goods being disrupted. Further hinder and tie up the planet's resources as they try to deal with that and my invading army.
I prefer the Stellaris route
26233666_2017127441889824_455726475660259158_o.png
R_qpyfSginnBtNwXgYSWJCHiwXiARi4uKGGwgSFFxxQ.jpg



Just unseal it after a couple hundred years and threaten them with more time if they don't behave.
xv9x7iwfcl741.jpg
 

King Arts

Well-known member
You are fialing to consider one important factor: Why does the invader want that planet.

Unless the invader is a genocidal xenophobe, there is something on that planet that the invader wants. Taking custody of that thing is their victory condition. If that thing gets destroyed, they cannot win, all they can due is inflict additional losses out of spite. This means there will be a set of exclusion zones around their primary objective(s) where orbital fire support will be unavailable. The defenders will of course try to identify the objective and pull most of their defenses in around it.

A general bombardment of the planet outside of the exclusion zone is not a great ides, not only are you wasting ammo, but you are also cutting off the defender's line of retreat. If they have no escape, they will fight to the last breath and worse yet you have done nothing to prevent your own defeat. As long as the defenders control your objective, they can destroy it to make you lose out of spite. The military police in a society that allows casual genocide will then have a discussion with you about your failure.
What if it’s an ideological war? The intent is to convert the people in the other nation to your religion or political philosophy? Some genocide would be acceptable then if it’s too difficult or if you think it would make other planets surrender. but it would Not be done too often because that would defeat the point of the war.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
What if it’s an ideological war? The intent is to convert the people in the other nation to your religion or political philosophy? Some genocide would be acceptable then if it’s too difficult or if you think it would make other planets surrender. but it would Not be done too often because that would defeat the point of the war.
Snip-it_1680116847569.jpg

Use the Divine Enforcer basically this
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
What if it’s an ideological war? The intent is to convert the people in the other nation to your religion or political philosophy? Some genocide would be acceptable then if it’s too difficult or if you think it would make other planets surrender. but it would Not be done too often because that would defeat the point of the war.
An ideological war like that is the most heavily slanted against orbital bombardment. The people are the prize. In this sort of invasion you want make an example out of every single death to the other potential converts. Orbital bombardment alto makes it difficult to kidnap children for brainwashing into your own ideology and makes it very hard for secret police to infiltrate their society.
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
Would be curious on how practical/impractical utilizing an EMP weapon might be as part of the lead up to invasion. The military would be hard-wired against it but I don't know how practical that would be to do for the civilian sector.

Best case scenario you'd plunge a large swath of the planet's population into a virtual dark age causing chaos and rioting from lack of services to transportation of food and other goods being disrupted. Further hinder and tie up the planet's resources as they try to deal with that and my invading army.

It's very easy to EMP harden tings, just encase them in metal and bury power lines.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Snip-it_1680116847569.jpg

Use the Divine Enforcer basically this

We are assuming they don't have mind control tech. Otherwise regular weapons would be useless. Imagine that, using some weapon to make your enemy in the middle east stop being Islamists and adopt democracy.
An ideological war like that is the most heavily slanted against orbital bombardment. The people are the prize. In this sort of invasion you want make an example out of every single death to the other potential converts. Orbital bombardment alto makes it difficult to kidnap children for brainwashing into your own ideology and makes it very hard for secret police to infiltrate their society.
If it kills all of the people in a nation or too many for the religious leaders yes. But if the nation has 10 planets and by blowing one of them up you get the others to surrender and then you can land your forces to implement your law then it can work.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
We are assuming they don't have mind control tech. Otherwise regular weapons would be useless. Imagine that, using some weapon to make your enemy in the middle east stop being Islamists and adopt democracy.

If it kills all of the people in a nation or too many for the religious leaders yes. But if the nation has 10 planets and by blowing one of them up you get the others to surrender and then you can land your forces to implement your law then it can work.

The only way I can see being able to do that is to start over from scratch with generations that get indoctrinated with your politics and make sure they're never exposed to competitive beliefs (Like what leftists do).

Or having the existing belief oppress their own supporters so bad that they say fuck it and abandon it because of how extreme it is (The Galactic Empire and its citizens rebelling)
 

King Arts

Well-known member
The only way I can see being able to do that is to start over from scratch with generations that get indoctrinated with your politics and make sure they're never exposed to competitive beliefs (Like what leftists do).

Or having the existing belief oppress their own supporters so bad that they say fuck it and abandon it because of how extreme it is (The Galactic Empire and its citizens rebelling)
What?
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
The key to beating a populace with out resorting to genocide.


A) Have their descendants/future generations support your beliefs by having them only exposed to your beliefs (Kidnapping at a very young age or replacing the educators with your own that have an agenda), the old generation might hate you but long term the new ones will love you or think you're great.


B) Have the existing party of your opponent become so oppressive that they see you as the lesser of the two evils and abandon support of their existing power in favor of a better.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
The key to beating a populace with out resorting to genocide.


A) Have their descendants/future generations support your beliefs by having them only exposed to your beliefs (Kidnapping at a very young age or replacing the educators with your own that have an agenda), the old generation might hate you but long term the new ones will love you or think you're great.


B) Have the existing party of your opponent become so oppressive that they see you as the lesser of the two evils and abandon support of their existing power in favor of a better.
Ahh well in response I’d tell you to study history. When Christianity was spread by the sword in Europe maybe the first generation converted just to save their skins and it was false, the second learned from their parents. But the grand children grew up only knowing the new order. You just have to last long enough if your policy only lasts decades like modern democracy yes you will be weak and can’t do that but history shows it worked for Christian’s and Muslims.
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Ahh well in response I’d tell you to study history. When Christianity was spread by the sword in Europe maybe the first generation converted just to save their skins and it was false, the second learned from their parents. But the grand children grew up only knowing the new order. You just have to last long enough if your policy only lasts decades like modern democracy yes you will be weak and can’t do that but history shows it worked for Christian’s and Muslims.
Well I originally intended for conversion through deception.

Conversion through force is the least effective method because it relies on fear not genuine belief.


Look at leftist ideology, they first start off by conversion via making everyone think they're the good guy. Their educators the same, you follow leftist ideology and you're a benevolent person.

Of course leftists will attack you if you fail to adhere to their Ideology but typically the ones that do the indoctrination are more subtle about it than their followers.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Well I originally intended for conversion through deception.

Conversion through force is the least effective method because it relies on fear not genuine belief.


Look at leftist ideology, they first start off by conversion via making everyone think they're the good guy. Their educators the same, you follow leftist ideology and you're a benevolent person.

Of course leftists will attack you if you fail to adhere to their Ideology but typically the ones that do the indoctrination are more subtle about it than their followers.
Again if you are willing to take the long way force will eventually work. Most middle easterners genuinely believe in Islam yet it was spread by the sword.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top