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What If? The Sietch Must Build Dungeons

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Tomorrow every member of TS wakes up simultaneously next to a large glowing orb, your new dungeon core.

A helpful set of tutorial dialogue boxes appear to inform each member of the delightful game to follow. There's also a convenient communications system that looks remarkably like The Sietch forums, with an added functionality for trading items and resources. Any item, once created, generates a blueprint. It can then be duplicated just by expending the resources required to make it. This goes for everything from a stone knife all the way to a completed room or even a fully furnished castle. Both items and their blueprints can be traded between players.

The world is a combination of tower defense, RPG, and dungeon core. Currently, each person has a territory about 1000 meter radius from the core, giving roughly 775 acres of land to gather from and cultivate. As the core accumulates mana, the territory slowly expands. Nobody's territories yet overlap but with time it will happen. Attempting to walk out of your territory causes headaches and nausea, followed eventually by death if you don't return to your territory soon enough. You can move your core but it stops gathering mana while in motion and moves at a snail's pace.

The core passively gathers mana increasing its potency and territory size automatically. When any creature is killed inside the territory, it gathers much more mana and there's a quick jump in size. If any creature attacks the core, it is instantly destroyed but takes a large chunk of mana with it, which depends on how strong the creature is. You may also permanently expend mana to permanently enhance your body, increasing toughness, strength, or other attributes at the cost of mana and territory. Though currently cost prohibitive, there are options to eventually spend several years of growth to buy various sci-fi and fantasy powersets like The Force, Ninjutsu, or Mentat skills. No member can be killed as long as they still have mana. If you die, you form a new uninjured body next to your core a few minutes later. Any equipment or clothes are left where you died, however. The exception is if your core runs out of mana entirely, then death is immediate and permanent. Sietchers also do not age, indeed those past their prime appear to be aging backwards towards their best time. The territory grows by around a meter per day and weaker monsters such as goblins are worth an entire day's passive gain, while a powerful dragon might add an entire year of growth.

The terrain is different for each person and it becomes apparent TS members are spread at least across an entire continent. Nobody is starting on barren land or in the ocean, though some can see it and everybody seems to have some water source, at least a small stream, available nearby. It appears on further discussion each person actually wound up on the terrain they favor and understand the best. The land is virginal and extremely robust, possibly in the equivalent of the Carboniferous age as the trees are immense and wildlife is very abundant. The tutorial "helpfully" notes that there are ore veins somewhere underground. Animal life is surprisingly abundant, some of it mostly familiar but going rapidly into fantasy creatures like dinosaurs and Griffons.

If you block your core off from the outside world entirely, it quits collecting mana, and openings for mana intake must be large enough for you to walk through comfortably. Strangely, although walls block the intake of mana, doors do not as long as they aren't locked so you don't have to be in the weather all the time. Windows also don't block mana intake as long as they're large enough.

A countdown timer indicates how long before a wave of enemies will attack. It starts at one week, which will generate a group of 20 goblins armed with sticks and rocks who spawn one at a time and have about the same strength, speed, and intelligence of a child. It will spawn a single hobgoblin boss more akin to a teenager, armed with a wooden club. The first wave is not sufficient to wipe out your starting mana though it will be a serious hit if you don't kill any of them at all. Further waves will appear once a week and each one will be slightly stronger than the last. The menus helpfully inform you that although the goblins aren't strong enough to break even a thin wall, in the future eventually monsters will come at you with fire, explosives, and other destructive weaponry so you're going to need to fortify!

How far can The Sietch go working together and trying to build up decent defenses? Will we make it into space?
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
If you block your core off from the outside world entirely, it quits collecting mana, and openings for mana intake must be large enough for you to walk through comfortably.
The terrain is different for each person and it becomes apparent TS members are spread at least across an entire continent.
How far can The Sietch go working together
Can we specialize and transfer mana between ourselves? So the outermost ring of dungeons are windowless armored bunkers which can't sustain themselves, which receive extra mana from the central dungeons in trade for keeping invaders out?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I can see that being eventually possible, but everybody's starting out spread out enough that the territories won't touch and make that viable for some time. Fortifying up and abandoning more mana production in favor of defense once you have enough territory to sustain yourself is a perfectly good plan though. I am deeply interested in what strategies people come up with. Early on it might be more worthwhile to just create said bunkers, and put them around your core rather than putting the core itself inside such a bunker.

For myself I'm thinking I can get us into the stone age in the first day or two easily enough. I know how to knap albeit I only do so as hobby, and can make some stone-tipped tools for trade. My biggest hurdle will probably be getting sufficient cordage, possibly another Sietcher knows how to go from wild plants to working rope. Rawhide would be ideal to start but getting decent hunting weapons before the first bits of rawhide will be a pain.

I'd be starting in Appalachia and I know Kudzu can be turned into suitable rope but I don't know exactly how so it would take experimentation, water-retting is probably the way to go but takes a couple of weeks and then IIRC it needs to dry another week or two. That seems too long to go before the first working ropes.

My initial fortification is probably just going to be a stake wall/timber fence to funnel the goblins toward a chokepoint I defend with a long spear. If I have some working cordage by then the spear will have a stone tip, otherwise it's just going to be sharpened to a point with a flake knife and I'm going to need several spare spears.

If I have any berry brambles in my territory (fairly likely to find dewberries) I'll get started on throwing up a hedge of thorns. Just planting them along the palisade of stakes will be a start, it's unlikely the brambles are going to stop anything much past orcs but they'll also be a useful food supply. I'll probably try to start building toward the edge of my territory for that and go on the theory that it's going to take a few years to complete a kilometer circle, rapid duplication of the stakes notwithstanding.

Sadly I know relatively little about refining ores. Given this is virgin land, we'll find native copper in at least a few people's territories and the trade system means whoever knows how will be able to make bronze fairly quickly. It's possible, depending on how much experimentation is needed, that we can actually enter the bronze age faster than the stone age.

I'm quite interested to see what other people come up with, though.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
The problem is that everyone is alone with their cube, which means that any kind of resource extraction that needs multiple people is out of question, so you can forget about logging and mining.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
The problem is that everyone is alone with their cube, which means that any kind of resource extraction that needs multiple people is out of question, so you can forget about logging and mining.
I don't think that will be as much of an issue as you might think. Remember that once the first of an object is made, it can always be duplicated immediately. So once one wagon is produced, anybody can now turn a sufficient amount of logs into a wagon by touching them. Once one person's made a pinch of black powder, anybody they trade the blueprint to can make more gunpowder at will as long as they have the ingredients available. Everything essentially goes from prototype directly to mass production with no need for intermediate steps, no factory, no assembly line, just making the first one as good as you can. Once one person's made an iron ingot, everybody else can make ingots out of raw ore, then the first iron axe, the first drill, and so forth on up to the first satellite launch system.

So for my own strategy, I'd need to flake one flint knife and from then on any piece of flint I touch can become a new knife. Same with arrowheads, spear points, etc. I can then sharpen a stake and from then on I can turn any stick I touch into a stake. Then I bind them into a section of fence and from then on I can turn any pile of sticks into a section of spiked fence. Once I've built a fence barricade I can trade the blueprints and everybody else can go directly from sticks on the ground -> 100-meter circular fence barricade.

Otherwise, my notion of building a fortified wall of stakes in only a week would be ludicrously optimistic.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
considering that 1st wave is gonna be what amounts to a single spawn of a gobbo 20 times? the best decision is prolly to spend some to boost your body and make a sling or several spears to handle them. after the initial wave you slowly better the dungeon with more spawns and increasing the overall size. don't be a Han Jee Han and save up for a big purchase at first. Either spend it on more minions/traps or to boost yourself up to handle things at first. if you can go out and capture some small critters to sacrifice to the core to boost things further that is a solid stratagem.

I doubt most people here are particularly in shape so considering that 1st wave is what amounts to a band of armed children individually they aren't a threat but if you are an unenhanced adult getting through 20 of them without them getting lucky is unlikely. the communication between the forum members is a helpful thing for those with more experience with survival. it will allow for others to guide those who aren't as good through the early stages.

later stages would likely need more planning to deal with and while it is tempting to save up for one of the bigger powers they are to far away for it to be feasible in the near term.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
We live forever, yes? Can we attempt to capture and selectively breed the wildlife and potentially the goblins?
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Ball_NOFRAME.0.jpg

Big ball goes squish squish, reeheeheee
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
We live forever, yes? Can we attempt to capture and selectively breed the wildlife and potentially the goblins?
Yes to both, and I was wondering if somebody would think of that.

You can basically regard this as something akin to Factorio or similar games, but instead of a fixed "tech tree" imposed by the game limitations you can actually literally build whatever you want and you're limited by real physics (pre-purchase of magic) rather than what the programmers thought of.


Generally speaking, you can presume a "reasonable RPG" progression, that is a person making a reasonably strong effort and coordinating with the group will be able to get up stone structures around the time enemies start showing up with torches and flamethrowers, without having to maniacally plan every single day to min-max gains. The same is true for pulling out magic or the force, somebody who's been making a decent push instead of sitting in a hammock will be able to afford powers around the time enemies start showing up with psionics or jutsu.

Ball_NOFRAME.0.jpg

Big ball goes squish squish, reeheeheee
So we can take it Scooby's going to try building the first temple in Indiana Jones, I guess that works. Be a lot of extra materials lost if the ball rolls out of your territory though, I'd try to make sure you have an inward slope at the mouth of your tunnel so it doesn't roll away. How will you reset it?
 

Scooby Doo

Well-known member
Yes to both, and I was wondering if somebody would think of that.

You can basically regard this as something akin to Factorio or similar games, but instead of a fixed "tech tree" imposed by the game limitations you can actually literally build whatever you want and you're limited by real physics (pre-purchase of magic) rather than what the programmers thought of.


Generally speaking, you can presume a "reasonable RPG" progression, that is a person making a reasonably strong effort and coordinating with the group will be able to get up stone structures around the time enemies start showing up with torches and flamethrowers, without having to maniacally plan every single day to min-max gains. The same is true for pulling out magic or the force, somebody who's been making a decent push instead of sitting in a hammock will be able to afford powers around the time enemies start showing up with psionics or jutsu.


So we can take it Scooby's going to try building the first temple in Indiana Jones, I guess that works. Be a lot of extra materials lost if the ball rolls out of your territory though, I'd try to make sure you have an inward slope at the mouth of your tunnel so it doesn't roll away. How will you reset it?
Spring loaded system to push it back with enough force to roll back into position.


May have lots of trial and errors lol
 

Yinko

Well-known member
No member can be killed as long as they still have mana. I
Do you need to eat, drink and breathe? My favorite dungeon defense tactic is always just fill the place with poison gas, that way even if they have a way of getting around the gas they have added a major vulnerability. However, if I have to breathe as well, that's kind of out of it.

The rule about things only having to be made once gets around a lot of issues for lack of skill as well as things that require multiple people.

For instance, let's say that I want to made a loaf of bread, I get the dough all ready but I'm not sure about the temperature, I can save the state of the dough and then test out different temperatures till I find the one that produces the perfect loaf, and then save that. For more complex processes you can do that same thing at every step, allowing for iterative process improvement on a scale that would otherwise take teams of people and months of time. The same would be true for producing things like stone tools. Save the state of the rock before you start, then regenerate it every time you screw up, till a perfect tool is produced.

Or, let's say that we wanted to make a wagon, it would be faster to have different people each working on individual components. A wooden wheel has four unique components: hub, spokes, rim sections and tenon pegs. If each is made by a separate individual and then one person puts them all together then that process is massively sped up. If one person gets tired while working on a single item, they can save its state in mid progress, have someone else work on it while they rest.

On constructing fortifications, assuming that you can have generated items be placed wherever you want, this would be dead easy. Have a block of stone, save it's state, go over to a region and start spamming it out in a line, then spam them on top of that line, you now have a wall. I imagine you could get a fully functional walled fortification and tower up in a day, and a multi-enclosure castle up in a week. The issue would be digging motes.

As for the space age, this would be relatively simple, if you can take your sphere with you onto your ship. In which case, just spam infinite fuel. If that's possible then you could probably reach space before you have a way to even make an air-tight enclosure, with gun-powder rockets. If you can't generate infinite fuel during travel, then you'd be back to trial and error.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Do you need to eat, drink and breathe? My favorite dungeon defense tactic is always just fill the place with poison gas, that way even if they have a way of getting around the gas they have added a major vulnerability. However, if I have to breathe as well, that's kind of out of it.

The rule about things only having to be made once gets around a lot of issues for lack of skill as well as things that require multiple people.

For instance, let's say that I want to made a loaf of bread, I get the dough all ready but I'm not sure about the temperature, I can save the state of the dough and then test out different temperatures till I find the one that produces the perfect loaf, and then save that. For more complex processes you can do that same thing at every step, allowing for iterative process improvement on a scale that would otherwise take teams of people and months of time. The same would be true for producing things like stone tools. Save the state of the rock before you start, then regenerate it every time you screw up, till a perfect tool is produced.

Or, let's say that we wanted to make a wagon, it would be faster to have different people each working on individual components. A wooden wheel has four unique components: hub, spokes, rim sections and tenon pegs. If each is made by a separate individual and then one person puts them all together then that process is massively sped up. If one person gets tired while working on a single item, they can save its state in mid progress, have someone else work on it while they rest.

On constructing fortifications, assuming that you can have generated items be placed wherever you want, this would be dead easy. Have a block of stone, save it's state, go over to a region and start spamming it out in a line, then spam them on top of that line, you now have a wall. I imagine you could get a fully functional walled fortification and tower up in a day, and a multi-enclosure castle up in a week. The issue would be digging motes.

As for the space age, this would be relatively simple, if you can take your sphere with you onto your ship. In which case, just spam infinite fuel. If that's possible then you could probably reach space before you have a way to even make an air-tight enclosure, with gun-powder rockets. If you can't generate infinite fuel during travel, then you'd be back to trial and error.
Yeah, we'd need to eat, drink and breathe. That said once the first gas mask is made...

You also need to be able to walk (or later take a cart or whatever) from your core to your territory to gather more resources whenever you die so making it too impassable or too long of a path is going to make your own life rough.

And yeah, you're starting to get the idea on how to spam some ludicrously fast advancements with this system. That said fuel will run into the problem that to make black powder, you actually need the ingredients, you can't just fingersnap things into existence. You have to have the logs and iron before you can make a wagon and the charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter to make gunpowder, so fingersnapping fuel won't work.
 

Yinko

Well-known member
You have to have the logs and iron before you can make a wagon and the charcoal, sulfur, and saltpeter to make gunpowder, so fingersnapping fuel won't work.
Ah, so it's not turning mana into matter, but rather skipping over the labor process in order turn out a finished product. That's a lot less broken than the generic dungeon model. It would also potentially bring back the issue mentioned by someone else about group labor in things like mining. The only good workaround for this would be if the process that keeps us immortal also regenerates injuries and fatigue. If you can dig at the same pace at hour ten as you were at minute one then an individual could mine pretty effectively.

A funny consequence of all of this is that we'd probably invent the type-writer before the printing-press. Since printing presses are only good for economy of scale and take longer per page to set up than writing by hand, while type writers can get stupidly fast if you are a trained typist.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Ah, so it's not turning mana into matter, but rather skipping over the labor process in order turn out a finished product. That's a lot less broken than the generic dungeon model. It would also potentially bring back the issue mentioned by someone else about group labor in things like mining. The only good workaround for this would be if the process that keeps us immortal also regenerates injuries and fatigue. If you can dig at the same pace at hour ten as you were at minute one then an individual could mine pretty effectively.
Naw, the trick is not to dig a mine. That will take forever. Instead, think about crafting the dirt and rock in front of you into something else, preferably portable or into infrastructure.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
I will point out that we start with the hob goblin boss as well. we aren't alone. if this works like other dungeon core things we are effectively going to be building up our own city states as time goes on. we will be adding other monsters to the dungeon as time goes on and we dig deeper.
 

Yinko

Well-known member
Naw, the trick is not to dig a mine. That will take forever. Instead, think about crafting the dirt and rock in front of you into something else, preferably portable or into infrastructure.
That would work for dirt, and you might be able to use that to make ceramics and carbon based materials, but what about metals?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
That would work for dirt, and you might be able to use that to make ceramics and carbon based materials, but what about metals?
Isn't that why you're mining in the first place? The first piece of ore somebody finds (probably on the surface) needs to be refined the long way, probably several tries as I have my doubts anybody here knows how to refine random ores. Once that's done anybody can turn ores into ingots, and it's time for somebody to try hammering it into our first tool. Once we have the first tools, keep going up the tech tree. I suspect the real turning point will be the first time somebody makes a working lathe.

But if ore in the mine itself is excessive, first vein becomes rails (Haul in some logs for ties). Second vein becomes a minecart. Third vein becomes finished goods hauled out on the cart. Repeat as needed for a given amount of rails needed.

If rock is too much of a problem, craft smooth stone spheres for easy rolling out the mine (or sell them to @Scooby Doo who seems to have a thing for them).

One distinct possible hack is selling the same item back and forth. If person A is standing in their store-room when they buy it, they can take stuff direction from person B's mine, then sell it back once person B's walked back to their own store-room to simplify logistics without transport from the mine.

It's worth noting I worked hard on trying to make a system that makes you kinda think sideways for the exploits and tricks to make it work.
 

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