The United States tells France to take a hike...

LordSunhawk

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It's 1945, VJ Day! Hurray, the war is over!

And now France is demanding the US back them in reasserting Colonial control over Indochina. Historically, Truman did so.

What if he told De Gaulle to go take a long walk off of a short pier? The Viet Cong at this point had been closely coordinating with OSS for years and were at the nadir of their relationship with the Soviets, as the Soviets had done nothing for them at all. OTOH, France was staring down a communist revolution of their own, as Le Resistance had very much been a communist organization.

Oh the butterflies!
 
The Viet Minh had been cooperating closely with the West as a result of deliberate COMINTERN policy, not genuine belief. The idea that Ho Chi Minh was more of a Nationalist dressed in Red than a devout Communist is mythologizing by his admirers, with not a lot of basis in reality. To quote from elsewhere:

Ho Chi Minh was not a "left-leaning nationalist" who just happened to be a Communist. He had been part of the world Communist movement since he had helped to found the French Communist Party in 1920. He never wavered in his loyalty to Leninism, which means that to him, national liberation, however important, was only the first step to building socialism and crushing capitalism and imperialism. This doesn't mean that in 1945 he wasn't open to compromise with France and the United States. But so, at that time, was Stalin!

For two attacks on the theory of Ho as "more nationalist than communist" see

(1) The views of Pierre Asselin https://www.wilsoncenter.org/person/pierre-asselin have been summarized as follows:

"Professor Asselin (Ideology, The Vietnamese Communist Revolution, and the Origins of the American War in Vietnam) looks at the American War in Vietnam through the perspective of North Vietnam. His paper highlights the importance of ideology and explains how Marxism-Leninism and the influence of Mao and Stalin helped shape North Vietnamese domestic and foreign policies, from 1954 to 1960, which “effectively set Hanoi on an irreversible collision course with the United States.” While the bulk of the paper focus on those “six years period,” it lays a valuable foundation for understanding the causes of the war and Hanoi’s determination “to fight to the end, regardless of the sacrifice required. . . [until] final victory.”

"The author faults “American standard accounts” of the war and American historians, with “limited language skill,” for “long understating or ignoring [communist] ideology as a motive force of the Vietnamese effort against Western intrusion,” therefore, leading to the mistaken conclusion that North Vietnamese leaders may be “avowed communists [but] they were really nationalists.” For him, Ho Chi Minh is not a nationalist, but a true communist who, together with his comrades, incited “class struggle” to reinvent society immediately upon gaining control of the north after the 1954 Geneva Accords. He points out that, as the first president of an independent Vietnam in 1945, Ho was “chiefly responsible for popularizing Marxism-Leninism in Vietnam,” and that “No single person played a more important role than Ho in adapting communist thought to Vietnamese circumstances and in spreading its ideas.” To the communists, national liberation is not as important as communist revolution.

"Professor Asselin maintains that, for them, defeating the Americans and their collaborators in South Vietnam was necessary “less for the sake of the people of South Vietnam” than for the ultimate goal of “annihilating imperialism and capitalism” and to fulfill Vietnam’s “moral obligation” before the “international Communist movement.”..." http://vietusactivities.com/remarks/nguyen-manh-hung-s-comments.html

(2) Ton That Thien's "Was Ho Chi Minh a Nationalist? Ho Chi Minh and the Comintern" http://www.tonthatthien.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/1990-Was-Ho-Chi-Minh-A-Nationalist.pdf Yes, of course he was biased https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tôn_Thất_Thiện but he still brings out many facts on the primacy of Communism over nationalism to Ho. As he notes, Ho's line in 1939-45 (and especially after 1941)--"waving high the flag of national independence, postponement of the social revolution, carefully concealing the Communist aims of the Party, broad national united front, etc."--far from being a deviation from the Comintern line was exactly what the Comintern wanted.

"Another widespread view about Ho is that in 1945-1946, Ho pursued a moderate and conciliatory policy toward France. They cited as concrete manifestation of this attitude Ho's agreement of March 6, 1946 by which he accepted for Vietnam the status of Free State - instead of independent state - member of the Indochinese Federation and the French Union. Jean Sainteny, the French representative who negotiated this agreement with Ho, asserted that Ho sincerely wanted friendly relations with France, and even liked the idea of being vice-president of the French Union..." But again this was completely in accord with Soviet policy, which wanted a friendly France (the Communists were after all participating in the French government):

"The CPF, which the CPI had always considered a senior party since the days of its foundation, warned the Vietnamese to make sure that their actions met the criteria of the current Soviet line and avoid any "premature adventures". Maurice Thorez stressed in 1946 that "under no circumstances" the CPF wished to be considered as "the eventual liquidator of the French position in Indochina".89 And in April 1946 he told a stunned Sainteny that the March 6, 1946 agreement was "very satisfactory" and if the Vietnamese did not respect it "we know what necessary measures to take, make the cannons talk if need be”.90

"...Ho knew perfectly what Soviet policy at the time was, and he had to conform to it. This, and not the weakness of his government alone at the time, explains his seeming moderation towards the French in 1945-1946, and well until the end of 1947. But in 1947 the situation changed. In May, the French communist ministers were out of the French government, and in September, in Poland, Zhdanov, on behalf of Stalin, announced a new policy: that of confrontation with the West. In Indochina, full war had already developed, and Ho did not have to make any turnaround to meet the demands of Moscow...

"...in the first week of January 1950 Ho went secretly to Moscow to have a meeting with Stalin. Khrushchev has said in his memoirs that Ho had a meeting with Stalin while the latter was alive, but gave no specifics.94 We now know, from Hoang van Hoan’s memoirs, that in the first days of January 1950, three weeks before China’s recognition of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, and one month before that of the Soviet Union, Ho made a secret visit to Peking to discuss Chinese recognition and aid. At this meeting with the Chinese leaders, Liu Shao-chi suggested that he went to see Stalin also. The Soviet ambassador, Nikolai Roschin, was asked to send a message to Stalin. The Soviet leader agreed, and two days later Ho flew to Moscow to request Soviet aid. At the Stalin-Ho meeting, the Chinese ambassador, Wanh Jia-hsiang, was present, and he told Hoan afterwards that at that meeting it was agreed that the main task of aiding Ho's government would be shouldered by China.95

"Ho had definitely chosen side. This was one month before the United States recognised the State of Vietnam, two months before it gave economic aid to the Saigon government, and six months before President Truman decided to give full military aid to the French for their war in Indochina following the outbreak of the Korean War. The prevalent view in current literature on the Vietnam War is that June 1950 marked the American involvement in Indochina, and was the start of the train of events leading to Vietnam being dragged into the cold war and to America's woes in the following years. That view must be abandoned today, because it is undisputable that it was Ho who has plunged Vietnam into the East-West confrontation by being the first to choose side...

"Paul Mus, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mus the greatest admirer and apologist of Ho Chi Minh, has said that Ho Chi Minh could not be considered "a marginal, operational communist, a nationalist dressed in red". To hold such an opinion, "one would have to forget the proofs that he has given of his devotion to the leadership of the Communist International". Mus cited as example Ho's acceptance of the Geneva agreement which better served the immediate interests of world communism than those of his Vietnamese fatherland. "Such gestures would remove any doubt, if this were necessary, concerning his deep-rooted and conscious membership of Ho Chi Minh to the communist movement..." https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ft-leaning-nationalists.461937/#post-18451704
 
Anti-communist Frenchmen are depressed and pissed at Americans. With their morale lower, they may not compete as well politically in France against the Communists. Non-communist/anti-communist Frenchmen won't deliberately lose political struggles or commit political suicide in a huff over being ditched on Indochina, but they won't be helped. Reaching common ground positions between the U.S. and France on administration of the zones of occupied Germany, issuance of the new currency in Germany, Europe-wide planning in conjunction with Marshall Plan aid, and NATO will be more difficult.

Ho Chi Minh doesn't have any reason to show special hostility to the US in the near term. He'll be focused on changing his society and eliminating domestic reactionary elements. At the same time he has no reason to be hostile to the USSR. The first international issue where he would probably vocally complain about US policy in Asia would be if/when the US intervenes in Korea.
 
The idea that Ho Chi Minh was more of a Nationalist dressed in Red than a devout Communist is mythologizing by his admirers, with not a lot of basis in reality.
A better counterargument might be, 'why should we care?'

Since the development of the technologies necessary for Mutually Assured Destruction, there have been only two ways in which foreign nations can threaten the US which aren't mutual suicide:
  • With the assistance of american Useful Idiot traitors allowing them to compete with ours in the name of Free Markets, rendering our domestic manufacturing/resource extraction businesses uncompetitive, such that our citizens lack jobs and they have power over us in the form of threatening to cut off our supplies.
  • Dragging us into pointless wars, wasting our money and the lives of our citizens as soldiers and causing the creation of a military-industry complex and security state which poses a greater threat to us than any foreign nation since we can't nuke them if they attempt to conquer us.
John Quincy Adams said:
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....
 
A better counterargument might be, 'why should we care?'

Since the development of the technologies necessary for Mutually Assured Destruction, there have been only two ways in which foreign nations can threaten the US which aren't mutual suicide:
  • With the assistance of american Useful Idiot traitors allowing them to compete with ours in the name of Free Markets, rendering our domestic manufacturing/resource extraction businesses uncompetitive, such that our citizens lack jobs and they have power over us in the form of threatening to cut off our supplies.
  • Dragging us into pointless wars, wasting our money and the lives of our citizens as soldiers and causing the creation of a military-industry complex and security state which poses a greater threat to us than any foreign nation since we can't nuke them if they attempt to conquer us.

I'm not sure I would call Reagan a "Useful Idiot traitor". He was many stupid things but I wouldn't say a traitor.

The problem with the other point is that the US has become too dependent on foreign sources for too many things so they can't simply say we will ignore the rest of the world.
 
He'll be focused on changing his society and eliminating domestic reactionary elements.
Meaning "genocidal dictator", the Stalin of Indochina.
But was Vietnam in commie control in 1945? Could there had been a civil war? Also, France would still wade in even on its lonesome, thus livening up events.

France being given the cold shoulder would be offended, of course. But let us not exagerrate the threat of communist revolution. Nor should the scale of Le Resistance be taken at what it claims to have been - communist lies, as usual.
 
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Meaning "genocidal dictator", the Stalin of Indochina.
But was Vietnam in commie control in 1945? Could there had been a civil war? Also, France would still wade even, on its lonesome, but livening up events.

France being given the cold shoulder would be offended, of course. But let us not exagerrate the threat of communist revolution. Nor should the scale of Le Resistance be taken at what it claims to have been - communist lies, as usual.

It was in Japan army control.And almost nobody supported commies.So,whoever would get support of Japan army would win.If USA order them install Ho,they would do so.
 
The problem with the other point is that the US has become too dependent on foreign sources for too many things so they can't simply say we will ignore the rest of the world.
Only because it was vital to ensuring the 'Trade or else' geopolitical paradigm. Isolationism only delays one's entry into a war for a few short years, at best. So, in a fit of complete and utter insane geopolitical brilliance, some movers and shakers in the US went out and made world trade have a rock bottom price tag.
 
Anti-communist Frenchmen are depressed and pissed at Americans. With their morale lower, they may not compete as well politically in France against the Communists. Non-communist/anti-communist Frenchmen won't deliberately lose political struggles or commit political suicide in a huff over being ditched on Indochina, but they won't be helped. Reaching common ground positions between the U.S. and France on administration of the zones of occupied Germany, issuance of the new currency in Germany, Europe-wide planning in conjunction with Marshall Plan aid, and NATO will be more difficult.

Ho Chi Minh doesn't have any reason to show special hostility to the US in the near term. He'll be focused on changing his society and eliminating domestic reactionary elements. At the same time he has no reason to be hostile to the USSR. The first international issue where he would probably vocally complain about US policy in Asia would be if/when the US intervenes in Korea.

I wonder what effect a much earlier French withdrawal from Vietnam has on Algeria. Does it make the French even more determined to hold onto Algeria? What stance do the superpowers take in regards to Algeria? Do they as aggressively support Algerian independence as they support Vietnamese independence?

In real life, when JFK publicly supported the Algerian cause in 1957 as a sitting US Senator, it caused quite a bit of controversy. But nevertheless JFK managed to stand his ground on this issue and eventually history ended up proving him right on this.

The Viet Minh had been cooperating closely with the West as a result of deliberate COMINTERN policy, not genuine belief. The idea that Ho Chi Minh was more of a Nationalist dressed in Red than a devout Communist is mythologizing by his admirers, with not a lot of basis in reality. To quote from elsewhere:

FWIW, it's possible to be a Communist but an independent-minded one. Not all Communist countries actually followed the Soviet Union's lead during the Cold War, after all.

BTW, somewhat off-topic, but I was wondering: What effect does a French victory in the First Indochina War have on Algeria?
 
FWIW, it's possible to be a Communist but an independent-minded one. Not all Communist countries actually followed the Soviet Union's lead during the Cold War, after all.

BTW, somewhat off-topic, but I was wondering: What effect does a French victory in the First Indochina War have on Algeria?

Problem is we know Ho Chi Minh wasn't being independent in his actions, he was following the lead of Moscow consistently.
 
Problem is we know Ho Chi Minh wasn't being independent in his actions, he was following the lead of Moscow consistently.

Fair enough, I suppose. That said, though, it still wasn't worth fighting a land war in Southeast Asia over, was it? Much better to prop up Thailand than the much more rickety South Vietnamese regime, no?
 
Fair enough, I suppose. That said, though, it still wasn't worth fighting a land war in Southeast Asia over, was it? Much better to prop up Thailand than the much more rickety South Vietnamese regime, no?

Depends upon whose viewpoint you're arguing from and in what context?
 
Your own viewpoint.

If you're asking what I would've done in the position of France at the time, it would come as a question of priorities and how much I know. with the benefit of hindsight, the loss of the KMT in the Civil War by 1949 pretty much eliminated the prospect of winning, in which case continuing the war was pointless and it would've been better to conserve the resources for Algeria.
 
If you're asking what I would've done in the position of France at the time, it would come as a question of priorities and how much I know. with the benefit of hindsight, the loss of the KMT in the Civil War by 1949 pretty much eliminated the prospect of winning, in which case continuing the war was pointless and it would've been better to conserve the resources for Algeria.

I meant from your own perspective if you were in charge of the US (rather than France) at the time.
 
I meant from your own perspective if you were in charge of the US (rather than France) at the time.

If I was in charge of the U.S. the goal would've been doing everything possible to help the French win, along with not engaging in general Anti-Colonialist sentiments/policies.
 
If I was in charge of the U.S. the goal would've been doing everything possible to help the French win, along with not engaging in general Anti-Colonialist sentiments/policies.

Interesting. So, you'd have supported the French in Vietnam because they're anti-Communist? Makes sense, I suppose. What about in Algeria? The rebels there were not Communist.

It seems more prudent to have a policy where you support independence movements that are non-Communist but not those that are Communist.
 
BTW, @History Learner, question for you: Just how much better would France's performance have been in a First Indochina War equivalent had France never actually fallen in 1940? Also, what about if there was no World War II at all?
 
BTW, @History Learner, question for you: Just how much better would France's performance have been in a First Indochina War equivalent had France never actually fallen in 1940? Also, what about if there was no World War II at all?

There wouldn't have been an Indochina War at all, or at least one so far into the future as to make it impossible to speculate upon.
 
There wouldn't have been an Indochina War at all, or at least one so far into the future as to make it impossible to speculate upon.

The Vietnamese wouldn't have dared to rebel against the French without them seeing French military power destroyed at German hands in 1940 and then again at Japanese hands in the Far East in 1941?
 

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