The White Russians offer Poland a return to its 1772 eastern borders in exchange for Polish military help in crushing the Bolsheviks

[WolfBear]

What if the White Russians offer Poland a return to its 1772 eastern borders in exchange for Polish military help in crushing the Bolsheviks? This seems like an excellent offer for the White Russians to make during the Russian Civil War if they were actually smart: It would significantly increase the odds of the Bolsheviks getting overthrown (with all of the subsequent resulting benefits for Russia) while also removing the most nationalistic parts of Ukraine from Russia, thus making it easier for Russia to Russify the remainder of Ukraine if the Whites will subsequently win the RCW. Russia would also be allowed to keep both Kiev and Novorossiya since neither of these two territories were actually Polish in 1772.

Anyway, what do you think? Could such a deal actually work?

FWIW, here is a map of the PLC's 1772 borders:

The short-lived 1863 Polish revolutionary government declared these borders to be Poland's claimed borders, so there's obviously a relatively recent precedent for Poland to claim these borders again in the early 20th century.

 

[ATP]

What if the White Russians offer Poland a return to its 1772 eastern borders in exchange for Polish military help in crushing the Bolsheviks? This seems like an excellent offer for the White Russians to make during the Russian Civil War if they were actually smart: It would significantly increase the odds of the Bolsheviks getting overthrown (with all of the subsequent resulting benefits for Russia) while also removing the most nationalistic parts of Ukraine from Russia, thus making it easier for Russia to Russify the remainder of Ukraine if the Whites will subsequently win the RCW. Russia would also be allowed to keep both Kiev and Novorossiya since neither of these two territories were actually Polish in 1772.

Anyway, what do you think? Could such a deal actually work?

FWIW, here is a map of the PLC's 1772 borders:

The short-lived 1863 Polish revolutionary government declared these borders to be Poland's claimed borders, so there's obviously a relatively recent precedent for Poland to claim these borders again in the early 20th century.

Yes,it would worked.Unfortunatelly for us,Denikin was in charge,and he could tolerate Poland in Warsaw,not other places.
And Piłsudzki choosed to have cease of fire with soviets,becouse he belived that Allies would never support soviets against Poland.Poor fool.

 

[WolfBear]

Yes,it would worked.Unfortunatelly for us,Denikin was in charge,and he could tolerate Poland in Warsaw,not other places.
And Piłsudzki choosed to have cease of fire with soviets,becouse he belived that Allies would never support soviets against Poland.Poor fool.

Would the Poles insist on any territories east of the 1772 frontiers or would they be happy with the 1772 frontiers?

 

[ATP]

Would the Poles insist on any territories east of the 1772 frontiers or would they be happy with the 1772 frontiers?

We would be happy with that.It would gave us border on Dniepr - ideal for defense.For nationalists like Dmowski it would be even too much!

 

[WolfBear]

We would be happy with that.It would gave us border on Dniepr - ideal for defense.For nationalists like Dmowski it would be even too much!

Dmowski can satisfy himself by creating Polish and Belarusian puppet states rather than directly annexing these territories to Poland.

Would Kiev's fate be settled via plebiscite? It was Russian before 1772, but Polish before 1667. Or would Poland simply let Russia have it? If there is to be an independent Polish-aligned puppet Ukraine, would it insist on having its capital at Kiev or could a different city work for this instead?

 

[ATP]

Dmowski can satisfy himself by creating Polish and Belarusian puppet states rather than directly annexing these territories to Poland.

Would Kiev's fate be settled via plebiscite? It was Russian before 1772, but Polish before 1667. Or would Poland simply let Russia have it? If there is to be an independent Polish-aligned puppet Ukraine, would it insist on having its capital at Kiev or could a different city work for this instead?

Depend on who would rule Poland.
Piłsudzki would want independent Ukraine - under his rule.
I once read,that his plans was for independent Poland,Belaruss and Ukraine - BUT with him as overlord.Kind of Emperor,i think.

Dmowski would gladly take Belarus,becouse people there still considered themselves as locals,but not ukrainian territories.

Agrarian party/Witos/ - they hated aristocrats,and do not cared about Ukraine that way or another.They would want Ukraine only to take aristocrat land - for themselves,of course.

 

[WolfBear]

Depend on who would rule Poland.
Piłsudzki would want independent Ukraine - under his rule.
I once read,that his plans was for independent Poland,Belaruss and Ukraine - BUT with him as overlord.Kind of Emperor,i think.

Dmowski would gladly take Belarus,becouse people there still considered themselves as locals,but not ukrainian territories.

Agrarian party/Witos/ - they hated aristocrats,and do not cared about Ukraine that way or another.They would want Ukraine only to take aristocrat land - for themselves,of course.

Would Dmowski be cool with a Ukrainian puppet state?

Did Witos envision Poles moving to Ukraine en masse?

BTW, here's a map of Dmowski's desired Polish borders:




Enough room for a small Ukrainian puppet state in the east!

 

[ATP]

Would Dmowski be cool with a Ukrainian puppet state?

Did Witos envision Poles moving to Ukraine en masse?

BTW, here's a map of Dmowski's desired Polish borders:




Enough room for a small Ukrainian puppet state in the east!

No,Dmowski wanted asimilate ukrainians.And Witos cared about his party,which mean polish peasants.So yes,he would want grab aristocrats land there - and gave it to dudes which voted for him.
Certainly not ukrainians or belarussians.

 

[WolfBear]

No,Dmowski wanted asimilate ukrainians.And Witos cared about his party,which mean polish peasants.So yes,he would want grab aristocrats land there - and gave it to dudes which voted for him.
Certainly not ukrainians or belarussians.

I looked up Witos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wincenty_Witos

Interesting figure.

Off-topic, but his younger brother lived to age 94:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Witos

 

[ATP]

I looked up Witos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wincenty_Witos

Interesting figure.

Off-topic, but his younger brother lived to age 94:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Witos

Interesting politician,who belived that what is good for polish agrarian party,is good for Poland.
But - that kind of attitude/my party-good for Poland/ was norm then,and is norm now in Poland

His younger brother betrayed Poland and served soviets.

 

[WolfBear]

His younger brother betrayed Poland and served soviets.

What should he have done instead? Go into exile?

 

[WolfBear]

@ATP By the way, my own view is that there should have been a "controlled demolition" of Russia after the end of World War I in order to remove all or at least most of the non-Russian-majority territories from its control/rule. I also think that these territories, along with the Russian core, of course, deserved to avoid and escape decades of totalitarian and tyrannical Bolshevik rule, since no one actually deserves to be ruled by that type of government.

 

[ATP]

What should he have done instead? Go into exile?

Or do not engage in politics.One of polish ex-military,who even served with "Mad Baron" Unger against soviets,lived after 1945 writing books for children.
Soviets after 1945 turned Poland into soviet-jewish colony - but,those who do not faught could usually live.Much better then in soviet union.

@ATP By the way, my own view is that there should have been a "controlled demolition" of Russia after the end of World War I in order to remove all or at least most of the non-Russian-majority territories from its control/rule. I also think that these territories, along with the Russian core, of course, deserved to avoid and escape decades of totalitarian and tyrannical Bolshevik rule, since no one actually deserves to be ruled by that type of government.

Indeed.Unfortunatelly,nobody wanted that.Except piłsudzki in Poland - but,other polish leaders do not supported him.
They were rightly suspicious - he planned kind of personal empire when he would rule over united Poland,Belaruss and Ukraine.

 

[WolfBear]

Or do not engage in politics.One of polish ex-military,who even served with "Mad Baron" Unger against soviets,lived after 1945 writing books for children.
Soviets after 1945 turned Poland into soviet-jewish colony - but,those who do not faught could usually live.Much better then in soviet union.

The Jewish part was pretty short-lived due to purges and emigration.

Indeed.Unfortunatelly,nobody wanted that.Except piłsudzki in Poland - but,other polish leaders do not supported him.
They were rightly suspicious - he planned kind of personal empire when he would rule over united Poland,Belaruss and Ukraine.

Well, that would have still been much better for the Ukrainians than Soviet rule, which produced the Holodomor for them!

 

[ATP]

The Jewish part was pretty short-lived due to purges and emigration.



Well, that would have still been much better for the Ukrainians than Soviet rule, which produced the Holodomor for them!

1.Sralin started purges in soviets - but,in Poland jews co-ruled till 1956.If he lived one year longer,it would change,but,fortunatelly for polish commie jews,somebody killed him.

2.It would be better for Belaruss and Poland,too.Unfortunatelly,nobody in Poland imagined that soviets could not only survive,but also genocide its own population and conqer other countries to do the same.
I am sure,that if polish politicians have future knowledge,they would support Piłsudzki plan,even if he becomed Emperor.

 

[WolfBear]

1.Sralin started purges in soviets - but,in Poland jews co-ruled till 1956.If he lived one year longer,it would change,but,fortunatelly for polish commie jews,somebody killed him.

2.It would be better for Belaruss and Poland,too.Unfortunatelly,nobody in Poland imagined that soviets could not only survive,but also genocide its own population and conqer other countries to do the same.
I am sure,that if polish politicians have future knowledge,they would support Piłsudzki plan,even if he becomed Emperor.

Did Pilsudski also want to overthrow the Communists in Moscow or simply to create an Intermarium?

 

[ATP]

Did Pilsudski also want to overthrow the Communists in Moscow or simply to create an Intermarium?

Only create kind of league made from Poland,Ukraine,Belaruss and Lithuania,ruled by him.He never wanted to rule only Poland,but also never wanted to rule over Russia.

 

[WolfBear]

Only create kind of league made from Poland,Ukraine,Belaruss and Lithuania,ruled by him.He never wanted to rule only Poland,but also never wanted to rule over Russia.

There's a middle ground between wanting to personally rule over Russia and wanting to leave Russia to the Bolsheviks!

 

[ATP]

There's a middle ground between wanting to personally rule over Russia and wanting to leave Russia to the Bolsheviks!

Not for Piłsudzki.He refused to talk seriously not only with Denikin,who wonted small polish vassal state,but alos Wrangel,who agreed to normal independent Poland.
Becouse he feared,that Allies would ally with any white Russia to destroy Poland.He could be right,but - even in such case world would be better place for anybody except poles.

 

[WolfBear]

Not for Piłsudzki.He refused to talk seriously not only with Denikin,who wonted small polish vassal state,but alos Wrangel,who agreed to normal independent Poland.
Becouse he feared,that Allies would ally with any white Russia to destroy Poland.He could be right,but - even in such case world would be better place for anybody except poles.

It would be better for the Poles as well, who won't subsequently get Communism shoved down their throats for several decades. Not gaining the Recovered Territories is a small price to pay in comparison to that.