Tolkien's Ideal of Monarchy

[Navarro]

'Strong' and 'Large' are not synonyms. Large government is not strong, it is weak, which is why it has to be large in the first place.

This is nonsense. Governmental strength directly causes the govt. to grow, since as it pushes its competences into more aspects of life it must by necessity increase the bureaucracy and hence the governmental workforce and funding. Or are you just indulging your fantasy that modern society is brittle as glass and it'll collapse any day now and surely then you'll be allowed to carry out your barbarian warlord LARP?

The strongest government is also the smallest, the rule of the one.

i.e. "the impossibility in any practical political terms over anything bigger than a tiny village of 150 people or less, and probably not even then?".

Economies of scale only exist for a specific subset of businesses. These are the businesses where the equipmentis particularly expensive and small-scale equipment doesn't exist. F'rex farming, because there's no such thing as a small combine suitable in price and function for a ten-acre spread. Factories as well since there are no single-person operable factories (Though 3D printer is moving in that direction).

On the governmental level we can also see that a government growing too centralised and trying to take over too much of society can actually weaken itself and the society it governs. See, communism and fascism.

 

[Aaron Fox]

This is nonsense. Governmental strength directly causes the govt. to grow, since as it pushes its competences into more aspects of life it must by necessity increase the bureaucracy and hence the governmental workforce and funding. Or are you just indulging your fantasy that modern society is brittle as glass and it'll collapse any day now and surely then you'll be allowed to carry out your barbarian warlord LARP?

It should also be noted that technology has a massive influence on how much government is needed. This causes the situation of high-tech->large bureaucracy to ensure not only that people don't abuse that tech in addition to ensuring that the civilization that uses said tech doesn't collapse.

On the governmental level we can also see that a government growing too centralised and trying to take over too much of society can actually weaken itself and the society it governs. See, communism and fascism.

It should be noted that centralization is more akin to a scale that is influenced by various factors, but technology most of all.

What does "push a psychopath's way" mean in this context? It seems like it could be either of them.

Essentially whatever the wants and desires of the said psychopath(s) are at that moment. It is far harder to bribe a large bureaucracy than a small one.

As far as being conquered obviously a smaller kingdom will usually go down to a larger one, all else being equal. However if the government is relatively weak compared to it's citizens, regardless of nation size, that provides said citizens with a certain level of protection from their own government, regardless of actual nation size.

Not really. A strong government is better to protect the citizenry of the nation/kingdom for it has the power to resist things like, oh, power-hungry corporations or other nation-states to provide some examples.

Historically, greatest factor leading to genocides was concentration of power. Which typically, though not always, meant big government.

This is actually false. Most genocides aren't done by powerful, big governments but weaker, smaller ones doing so to prop up their political bases. The Nazis and colonial powers being the sole exceptions to this rule.

In economy smaller business are most effective then big corporations,that is why big support socialists - becouse they would destroy small and medium competitors for them.
But,for doing that,big corporations need big state.Small state could not destroy medium or small ,even if it wont it.

Not really. Small businesses -from what I remember from the various economic classes and my Entrepreneurship class back in high school- are rarely stable or last more than half a decade despite having a significant portion of the job market back in the mid-2000s.

 

[Navarro]

It should also be noted that technology has a massive influence on how much government is needed. This causes the situation of high-tech->large bureaucracy to ensure not only that people don't abuse that tech in addition to ensuring that the civilization that uses said tech doesn't collapse.

I mean, we can clearly see that the Song dynasty had a much larger bureaucracy than its contemporary medieval European states despite having more or less the same tech level. So bureaucratisation can't be solely a factor of technology. Minoan Crete was also more bureaucratic and centralised than Hellenistic Greece, despite the former being bronze-age and the latter iron-age.

 

[Aaron Fox]

I mean, we can clearly see that the Song dynasty had a much larger bureaucracy than its contemporary medieval European states despite having more or less the same tech level. So bureaucratisation can't be solely a factor of technology.

I said that it has a massive influence on bureaucracy, not that it's the central pillar of bureaucracy. It should also be noted that the Song Dynasty of China not only used bureaucracy as a civilization method but also as a stability method to throw not only the nobility but also the peasantry a bone and a stake in government. The Song Dynasty also out-sized most contemporary medieval European states by a significant margin as well, leading to the large bureaucracy.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Not really. A strong government is better to protect the citizenry of the nation/kingdom for it has the power to resist things like, oh, power-hungry corporations or other nation-states to provide some examples.

And this has what to do with citizen's safety from their own government?

This is actually false. Most genocides aren't done by powerful, big governments but weaker, smaller ones doing so to prop up their political bases. The Nazis and colonial powers being the sole exceptions to this rule.

It would not appear to be so from the list of genocides in history.

#1 & #2 are Nazis, #3 is the Khmer Rouge, #4 is Russia, #5 & #7 were the Ottoman Empire, #6 was Rwanda so probably the first weak government on the list, #8 is China, then we loop back to the Nazis, etc. Weak governments account for a relatively small percentage and they're generally tiny in number of people killed to boot.

Essentially whatever the wants and desires of the said psychopath(s) are at that moment. It is far harder to bribe a large bureaucracy than a small one.

This appears to be based on the assumption that you have to bribe everybody in the bureaucracy instead of a key person or two (also we need to look at the difference between "Strong" and "Large" as you define them because you're switching back and forth between them in your arguments).

If I have enough to bribe Stalin, I don't also need to bribe every random Party member, Stalin's enough. If I don't have enough to bribe Stalin, it doesn't matter if he has 100,000 or 1,000,000 subordinates at his command, Russia still isn't moving. This also presumes said psychopaths are going to use money rather than ideology, but we see far more of the latter.

Not really. Small businesses -from what I remember from the various economic classes and my Entrepreneurship class back in high school- are rarely stable or last more than half a decade despite having a significant portion of the job market back in the mid-2000s.

And this has what to do with efficiency?

Also note that even the massive multinational Fortune 500 companies don't last any longer, with multiple studies pointing to a 16 year average. Small businesses are dragged down significantly in average lifespan by the huge number of ill-prepared startups that fail in their first year. If you compare instead the exit rate (This is how many businesses from last year are still operational this year, which is generally more accurate than average lifespan*), the S&P 500 tends towards 10-12% (In the same link above). As for small businesses, as of 2013 it was 9% and dropping while big multinational's exit rate was increasing. I imagine COVID has changed things considerably. With government intervention, small businesses have been forced to close while big business was deemed "critical" and allowed to stay open so it will be some time before the smaller, more efficient businesses recover from the market manipulation going on.

*This is similar to how you would see "average lifespans" of 25-30 years in some periods of history even though most adults made it to their 60s-70s, because infant mortality was high and an infant dying at 6 weeks old drags the average down enormously.

 

[Aaron Fox]

And this has what to do with citizen's safety from their own government?

You can't, if anything history has told us that citizens with more ideology than sense tend to make problems for everyone (or has everyone forgot that such a gaggle of idiots who managed to infiltrate an intelligence agency caused WW1 and by extension WW2?).

When I said Hobbes and Locke are surprisingly accurate about the human condition, I meant it.

It would not appear to be so from the list of genocides in history.

#1 & #2 are Nazis, #3 is the Khmer Rouge, #4 is Russia, #5 & #7 were the Ottoman Empire, #6 was Rwanda so probably the first weak government on the list, #8 is China, then we loop back to the Nazis, etc. Weak governments account for a relatively small percentage and they're generally tiny in number of people killed to boot.

That list is woefully incomplete, especially since several nations (and Britain and France, i.e. former colonial powers, in particular) have a vested interest to make the definition quite narrow and quite recent instead of the historical 'everyone and their brother did it at one time or another'.

This appears to be based on the assumption that you have to bribe everybody in the bureaucracy instead of a key person or two (also we need to look at the difference between "Strong" and "Large" as you define them because you're switching back and forth between them in your arguments).

If I have enough to bribe Stalin, I don't also need to bribe every random Party member, Stalin's enough. If I don't have enough to bribe Stalin, it doesn't matter if he has 100,000 or 1,000,000 subordinates at his command, Russia still isn't moving. This also presumes said psychopaths are going to use money rather than ideology, but we see far more of the latter.

The thing is, ideology can only get you so far, money is not only universal but far more effective.

And this has what to do with efficiency?

Did I say anything about efficiency because I remember not saying anything about efficiency?

Also note that even the massive multinational Fortune 500 companies don't last any longer, with multiple studies pointing to a 16 year average. Small businesses are dragged down significantly in average lifespan by the huge number of ill-prepared startups that fail in their first year. If you compare instead the exit rate (This is how many businesses from last year are still operational this year, which is generally more accurate than average lifespan*), the S&P 500 tends towards 10-12% (In the same link above). As for small businesses, as of 2013 it was 9% and dropping while big multinational's exit rate was increasing. I imagine COVID has changed things considerably. With government intervention, small businesses have been forced to close while big business was deemed "critical" and allowed to stay open so it will be some time before the smaller, more efficient businesses recover from the market manipulation going on.

*This is similar to how you would see "average lifespans" of 25-30 years in some periods of history even though most adults made it to their 60s-70s, because infant mortality was high and an infant dying at 6 weeks old drags the average down enormously.

It should be noted that the stats were from the top of my head from classes a better part of a decade ago.

 

[Aldarion]

This is actually false. Most genocides aren't done by powerful, big governments but weaker, smaller ones doing so to prop up their political bases. The Nazis and colonial powers being the sole exceptions to this rule.

Largest genocides were done by Communists (who had powerful state apparatus), Nazis (who had powerful state apparatus), and various colonial powers (who also had powerful administrative apparatus, though not necessarily state apparatus). That is basically definition of a "powerful, big government". Whether a certain political faction within the government (which is what you are talking about) is powerful has no relation to whether government itself is powerful.

This is probably the best site I have found on the topic:

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

And it definitely supports the idea of a "powerful government = trouble".

 

[ATP]

Not really. Small businesses -from what I remember from the various economic classes and my Entrepreneurship class back in high school- are rarely stable or last more than half a decade despite having a significant portion of the job market back in the mid-2000s.

Small business are unstable becouse goverment with big business support try to destroy them,and they pay all taxes,when big practically do not pay at all.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

Largest genocides were done by Communists (who had powerful state apparatus), Nazis (who had powerful state apparatus), and various colonial powers (who also had powerful administrative apparatus, though not necessarily state apparatus). That is basically definition of a "powerful, big government". Whether a certain political faction within the government (which is what you are talking about) is powerful has no relation to whether government itself is powerful.

This is probably the best site I have found on the topic:

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

And it definitely supports the idea of a "powerful government = trouble".

Treating the problem of the 20th century mass graves as one of 'too much power' strikes me as magical thinking. As if we could abolish power. This is just a recipe for remaining powerless and thinking ourselves good thereby. Power is the capacity to do something in the face of opposition. One cannot have the power to do good without having the power to do evil. This is reality. But if one says 'the problem is power itself' and beats his sword into a plowshare, well that person is signing up to plow for he that does not.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Did I say anything about efficiency because I remember not saying anything about efficiency?

That's kinda the point, you quoted a statement about efficiency but didn't actually address the subject of your quotation at all, just said "Not really-" and then changed the subject.

It should be noted that the stats were from the top of my head from classes a better part of a decade ago.

Fair enough. One way you can usually tell somebody's trying to snooker you with statistics is presenting them the way you were repeating theirs in the previous post, "Most small businesses fail in five years" without anything to compare to. In this case, leaving out that most big businesses do as well.

 

[Navarro]

Treating the problem of the 20th century mass graves as one of 'too much power' strikes me as magical thinking. As if we could abolish power. This is just a recipe for remaining powerless and thinking ourselves good thereby. Power is the capacity to do something in the face of opposition. One cannot have the power to do good without having the power to do evil. This is reality. But if one says 'the problem is power itself' and beats his sword into a plowshare, well that person is signing up to plow for he that does not.

The situation is more like:

A. The government is made up of people.

B. People have tendencies towards doing evil things.

C. Giving people unlimited power over other people in the form of giving the govt. unlimited power will not only lead to them abusing their power, but also to the people in power's evil tendencies being exacerbated leading to them behaving worse in a moral sense than they would have been had the govt. been limited.

As the people you disparage as the 'founding felons' so adroitly realised, if angels were to govern men they would be free to give government all the power it could possibly want. Seeing as that's not the case ... they decided not to do that. Which goes to show they were a lot more intelligent and learned than you, but then I'm talking to somebody who I can torpedo with ease just by skimming Wikipedia.

Ending my syllogism ...

D. We should limit the government's power over the citizens by various means such as Federalism, Constitutional limits, so on and so forth.

Trying to sell "a government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have" as its opposite just plain makes no sense.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Fair enough. One way you can usually tell somebody's trying to snooker you with statistics is presenting them the way you were repeating theirs in the previous post, "Most small businesses fail in five years" without anything to compare to. In this case, leaving out that most big businesses do as well.

Just so we're on the same page, what is the definition of 'big business' you're using?

Small business are unstable becouse goverment with big business support try to destroy them,and they pay all taxes,when big practically do not pay at all.

ATP, please do some research. Last I've checked, this isn't the actual case. Smaller businesses (at least in the US) tend to have fewer regulations than their larger counterparts outside the really vital stuff (usually pertaining to things like HAZMAT and work safety).

 

[Aldarion]

Treating the problem of the 20th century mass graves as one of 'too much power' strikes me as magical thinking. As if we could abolish power. This is just a recipe for remaining powerless and thinking ourselves good thereby. Power is the capacity to do something in the face of opposition. One cannot have the power to do good without having the power to do evil. This is reality. But if one says 'the problem is power itself' and beats his sword into a plowshare, well that person is signing up to plow for he that does not.

Yet treating it as anything else is nothing but willfull ignorance of the real causes. We may not be able to abolish power, but that does not mean we should ignore its dangers.

 

[Navarro]

Yet treating it as anything else is nothing but willfull ignorance of the real causes. We may not be able to abolish power, but that does not mean we should ignore its dangers.

Hmm ... we can also see this in Tolkien's work, as Gandalf and Galadriel are wise enough to know that using the Ring to try and do good would turn them evil and reject it. Sauron's fall also comes about through wanting to use his power to order all things for their own good ...

Looks like somebody hasn't actually read The Lord of the Rings.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

Yet treating it as anything else is nothing but willfull ignorance of the real causes. We may not be able to abolish power, but that does not mean we should ignore its dangers.

"Power" is not a cause though. Or at least, if it is a cause, it is only a necessary cause but not a sufficient one. The root cause is always the will of those with the power to do the thing to be done.

Powerlessness is not praiseworthy. Powerlessness is not virtuous. Powerlessness is not good.

The worship of weakness is getting out of hand and it is appalling to see it on the right.

 

[Aldarion]

"Power" is not a cause though. Or at least, if it is a cause, it is only a necessary cause but not a sufficient one. The root cause is always the will of those with the power to do the thing to be done.

Powerlessness is not praiseworthy. Powerlessness is not virtuous. Powerlessness is not good.

The worship of weakness is getting out of hand and it is appalling to see it on the right.

So you want a global dictatorship?

It is not about powerlessness, it is about freedom. Freedom to self-determination, freedom to live according to tradition and honour, without having a bunch of psychopathic morons overturn everything with laws.

Powerful have (almost) always been progressive, because destroying traditional authorities allows them to accumulate even more power. Traders and merchants in particular.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

So you want a global dictatorship?

It is not about powerlessness, it is about freedom. Freedom to self-determination, freedom to live according to tradition and honour, without having a bunch of psychopathic morons overturn everything with laws.

Powerful have (almost) always been progressive, because destroying traditional authorities allows them to accumulate even more power. Traders and merchants in particular.

You can't have Tradition and Honour without Power sufficient to secure them from traders and merchants. And Freedom just means license for Traders and Merchants to play subversion games.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Just so we're on the same page, what is the definition of 'big business' you're using?

The statistics in the sources I've provided used the Fortune 500 as its standard, thus figures like the 10-12% average exit rate from those specific sources are based on those specific businesses.

The US Government's definition of small business per the CDC and SBA are as follows:

• Is organized for profit
• Has a place of business in the United States (U.S.)
• Operates primarily within the U.S. or makes a significant contribution to the U.S. economy through payment
  of taxes or use of American products, materials or labor
• Is independently owned and operated
• Is not dominant in its field on a national basis
• May be a sole proprietorship, partnership, corporation, or any other legal form

ATP, please do some research. Last I've checked, this isn't the actual case. Smaller businesses (at least in the US) tend to have fewer regulations than their larger counterparts outside the really vital stuff (usually pertaining to things like HAZMAT and work safety).

Sure would be nice if you sourced that. I've already mentioned how big businesses often use things like Eminent Domain to have the government seize small businesses. Castle Coalition is a good source for just how much abuse of Eminent Domain goes on to support large developers at the cost of small businesses. They also get the lion's share of government subsidies.

As far as taxes the average small business (Per the SBA) pays 19-20%. Meanwhile of Fortune 500 companies, 379 of them paid an average of 11%, and 91 paid nothing at all, with 18 multi-billion dollar companies getting more in tax rebates than they paid for some steep subsidies.

 

[Aldarion]

You can't have Tradition and Honour without Power sufficient to secure them from traders and merchants. And Freedom just means license for Traders and Merchants to play subversion games.

And lack of freedom just means the lincense for traders and merchants to buy those who make the laws.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

And lack of freedom just means the lincense for traders and merchants to buy those who make the laws.

Which is why there is really only ever either monarchy or plutocratic oligarchy with aristocracy and democracy as speed bumps along the way to one or the other.

Either there is someone who doesn't need the merchant's money to purchase the authoritas and gravitas to back and legitimate his potentia, or there isn't.