Transgender Rights

[Ixian]

1. Obviously banning urinals affects the boys who would otherwise use those urinals.

2. Banning urinals does nothing to prevent vaping. Whatever the superintendents later claims, its very clear this was specifically a compromise made due to an impass on the decision to separate bathrooms by gender assigned at birth or chosen gender.

As made abundantly clear here...

"Students at a New Hampshire high school and middle school staged a walkout after the school board banned urinals and shared locker rooms amid a dispute over separating bathrooms based on sex not gender identity."

and here

"Friday's demonstration comes after a lengthy debate by the board of education over whether to separate school bathrooms and locker rooms by the sex assigned at birth or by gender identity, The Boston Globe reported."

As to the confused girl, my point ia that she still feels entitled to the male restroom for some insane reason.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Hang on, I'm confused. So some guys walk into the girl's bathroom pretending to be girls.
And in response the urinals in the boys bathroom are barred?

I don't get it.

 

[ParadiseLost]

1. Obviously banning urinals affects the boys who would otherwise use those urinals.

Yes? Obviously? That's my point, it decreases the amount of available bathroom space.

2. Banning urinals does nothing to prevent vaping.

Are you dense? I literally spelled it out for you, even bolded and highlighted important information.

Bathrooms have an occupancy limit. Generally at a large school there could even at many times be a line to wait to use the restroom. If you drastically decrease the available spaces to go to the bathroom (by, say, banning urinals), then the demand for opportunities to use the bathroom will increase, leading to less time available for students to be in the bathroom vaping. Because no one wants to have to wait to piss because some asshole is sitting in the stall with a vape.

As made abundantly clear here...

"Students at a New Hampshire high school and middle school staged a walkout after the school board banned urinals and shared locker rooms amid a dispute over separating bathrooms based on sex not gender identity."


"Friday's demonstration comes after a lengthy debate by the board of education over whether to separate school bathrooms and locker rooms by the sex assigned at birth or by gender identity, The Boston Globe reported."

Except nothing the school ended up doing has anything to do with whether or not school bathrooms and locker rooms should be separated by sex assigned at birth or by gender identity.

Its like the crazy YA series Unwound, where pro-abortion and pro-lifers come to the compromise of... raising the age where kids can be aborted to 13.

Hang on, I'm confused. So some guys walk into the girl's bathroom pretending to be girls.
And in response the urinals in the boys bathroom are barred?

I don't get it.

Exactly, its an obvious non-sequitur on the face of it. Its very clear that the Board of Education at the school is trying to disguise a crackdown on vaping as some kind of compromise on trans student bathroom policy.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Exactly, its an obvious non-sequitur on the face of it. Its very clear that the Board of Education at the school is trying to disguise a crackdown

A crackdown on what? What does barring urinals accomplish, as the stalls are still there.

 

[ParadiseLost]

A crackdown on what? What does barring urinals accomplish, as the stalls are still there.

Vaping. Go read my original post again, here: https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/transgender-rights.379/page-49#post-366064

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Vaping. Go read my original post again, here: https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/transgender-rights.379/page-49#post-366064

Yeah but...You can vape in a stall, right? If anything that offers more privacy than a urinal.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[Ixian]

Hang on, I'm confused. So some guys walk into the girl's bathroom pretending to be girls.
And in response the urinals in the boys bathroom are barred?

I don't get it.

No, there is a push for schools to allow trans identifying individuals to use the bathroom that they want, the school couldn't decide what to do, so they "compromised" by banning the urinals in the boys restrooms, as well as totally separating changing areas (I mean the second part should always have been the case). Effectively they banned the urinals so their would be no difference between the bathrooms available so the trans individuals would feel better (despite them not being happy with the idiotic compromise anyway) and effectively punished all the boys by taking away half their restrooms.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

No, there is a push for schools to allow trans identifying individuals to use the bathroom that they want, the school couldn't decide what to do, so they "compromised" by banning the urinals in the boys restrooms, as well as totally separating changing areas (I mean the second part should always have been the case). Effectively they banned the urinals so their would be no difference between the bathrooms available so the trans individuals would feel better (despite them not being happy with the idiotic compromise anyway) and effectively punished all the boys by taking away half their restrooms.

Shouldn't trans-men be able to use the urinals if they want to? At least that's what they're supposed to be doing according to their own wants.

 

[Ixian]

Yes? Obviously? That's my point, it decreases the amount of available bathroom space.


Are you dense? I literally spelled it out for you, even bolded and highlighted important information.

Bathrooms have an occupancy limit. Generally at a large school there could even at many times be a line to wait to use the restroom. If you drastically decrease the available spaces to go to the bathroom (by, say, banning urinals), then the demand for opportunities to use the bathroom will increase, leading to less time available for students to be in the bathroom vaping. Because no one wants to have to wait to piss because some asshole is sitting in the stall with a vape.


Except nothing the school ended up doing has anything to do with whether or not school bathrooms and locker rooms should be separated by sex assigned at birth or by gender identity.

Its like the crazy YA series Unwound, where pro-abortion and pro-lifers come to the compromise of... raising the age where kids can be aborted to 13.


Exactly, its an obvious non-sequitur on the face of it. Its very clear that the Board of Education at the school is trying to disguise a crackdown on vaping as some kind of compromise on trans student bathroom policy.

You're hopeless if you really think this was about vaping and not further destroying the private spaces of men and women, or in this case boys and girls.

The vaping thing is an excuse because of how poorly their "compromise" was received on both sides.

Edit: Also, not sure if you have meet the type of people who vape/smoke in bathroom stalls, they do not care you are waiting.

 

[Ixian]

Shouldn't trans-men be able to use the urinals if they want to? At least that's what they're supposed to be doing according to their own wants.

The school board couldn't decide if they wanted to allow that or not. Hence the banning urinals "compromise".

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

The school board couldn't decide of they wanted to allow that or not. Hence the banning urinals "compromise".

Irrational and pointless changes just because their existence cannot be justified without them.

That sounds like a school board to me!

 

[ParadiseLost]

Yeah but...You can vape in a stall, right? If anything that offers more privacy than a urinal.

Something doesn't add up.

Jesus Christ dude.

Okay. Let me explain it in excessive detail.

Its a basic understand of the principle of supply and demand.

Let's just say there are 2000 opportunities to use the restroom in a day, based on the number of stalls and the amount of time. The demand for opportunities to use the restroom is 1500, and the demand for opportunities to vape is 300, but realistically maximum usage of all opportunities isn't possible because there are peak demand times.

If you get rid of urinals and decrease the opportunities to 1600, then something has to give. Students will not appreciate not being able to shit because someone wants to sit on the toilet vaping, so there will be strong social pressure not to vape, because now there is such demand to use the restroom.

And since they got rid of changing rooms entirely and forced students to use the stalls instead, they've applied further pressure to decrease the number of opportunities to use the restroom.

You're hopeless if you really think this was about vaping and not further destroying the private spaces of men and women, or in this case boys and girls.

The vaping thing is an excuse because of how poorly their "compromise" was received on both sides.

'The school board used a dumb excuse to justify a vaping crackdown' sounds a lot more rational to me than 'the school board is engaged in psychological culture warfare to destroy private spaces despite the students already being for trans students being allowed to use the restroom; meanwhile the school board does nothing that actually enables trans students to be comfortable in spaces not of their birth gender.'

Like, if what the school was doing was actually pro-trans, like letting trans students change in non-birth-gender areas, or letting transwomen use the men's restroom, I would agree with you. But this policy clearly has nothing to do with trans students. If this was actually about them forcing a pro-trans ideology on students, then none of their actions make any sense. They could've just let students use the spaces of their gender identity and called it a day.

 

[Ixian]

Jesus Christ dude.

Okay. Let me explain it in excessive detail.

Its a basic understand of the principle of supply and demand.

Let's just say there are 2000 opportunities to use the restroom in a day, based on the number of stalls and the amount of time. The demand for opportunities to use the restroom is 1500, and the demand for opportunities to vape is 300, but realistically maximum usage of all opportunities isn't possible because there are peak demand times.

If you get rid of urinals and decrease the opportunities to 1600, then something has to give. Students will not appreciate not being able to shit because someone wants to sit on the toilet vaping, so there will be strong social pressure not to vape, because now there is such demand to use the restroom.

And since they got rid of changing rooms entirely and forced students to use the stalls instead, they've applied further pressure to decrease the number of opportunities to use the restroom.

They type of people who vape/smoke in bathroom stalls, absolutely do not care about other people waiting or occupancy limits.

They have nicotine addiction, they will get their nicotine, and it doesn't matter to them if someone else can't use the restroom.

Besides, it's literally an ass covering attempt by the school board after their compromise blew up in flames.

 

[ParadiseLost]

They type of people who vape/smoke in bathroom stalls, absolutely do not care about other people waiting or occupancy limits.

They have nicotine addiction, they will get their nicotine, and it doesn't matter to them if someone else can't use the restroom.

Besides, it's literally an ass covering attempt by the school board after their compromise blew up in flames.

They can not care all they want, they'll be forced to care after another student who had to wait 15 minutes for a shit reports them for vaping because they decided to be an asshole. Or they get beat up for being an asshole, or they get physically dragged out of the bathroom, or people in line simply don't even let them into the bathroom, or someone steals their vape, etc.

Or due to time/space constraints some students just won't be able to vape.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Jesus Christ dude.

Okay. Let me explain it in excessive detail.

Its a basic understand of the principle of supply and demand.

Let's just say there are 2000 opportunities to use the restroom in a day, based on the number of stalls and the amount of time. The demand for opportunities to use the restroom is 1500, and the demand for opportunities to vape is 300, but realistically maximum usage of all opportunities isn't possible because there are peak demand times.

If you get rid of urinals and decrease the opportunities to 1600, then something has to give. Students will not appreciate not being able to shit because someone wants to sit on the toilet vaping, so there will be strong social pressure not to vape, because now there is such demand to use the restroom.

And since they got rid of changing rooms entirely and forced students to use the stalls instead, they've applied further pressure to decrease the number of opportunities to use the restroom.

No need to 'jesus christ dude', just trying to have a conversation.

Children are going to vape anywhere they can, they're not going to care about the urinals being shut down, they'll just stand next to said urinals to puff away.

 

[Ixian]

Jesus Christ dude.

Okay. Let me explain it in excessive detail.

Its a basic understand of the principle of supply and demand.

Let's just say there are 2000 opportunities to use the restroom in a day, based on the number of stalls and the amount of time. The demand for opportunities to use the restroom is 1500, and the demand for opportunities to vape is 300, but realistically maximum usage of all opportunities isn't possible because there are peak demand times.

If you get rid of urinals and decrease the opportunities to 1600, then something has to give. Students will not appreciate not being able to shit because someone wants to sit on the toilet vaping, so there will be strong social pressure not to vape, because now there is such demand to use the restroom.

And since they got rid of changing rooms entirely and forced students to use the stalls instead, they've applied further pressure to decrease the number of opportunities to use the restroom.



'The school board used a dumb excuse to justify a vaping crackdown' sounds a lot more rational to me than 'the school board is engaged in psychological culture warfare to destroy private spaces despite the students already being for trans students being allowed to use the restroom; meanwhile the school board does nothing that actually enables trans students to be comfortable in spaces not of their birth gender.'

Like, if what the school was doing was actually pro-trans, like letting trans students change in non-birth-gender areas, or letting transwomen use the men's restroom, I would agree with you. But this policy clearly has nothing to do with trans students. If this was actually about them forcing a pro-trans ideology on students, then none of their actions make any sense. They could've just let students use the spaces of their gender identity and called it a day.

Where did you get that trans students were already allowed in the restroom of their choice?

Because the following reads to me that they couldn't come to a decision on that.

"Students at a New Hampshire high school and middle school staged a walkout after the school board banned urinals and shared locker rooms amid a dispute over separating bathrooms based on sex not gender identity."

"Friday's demonstration comes after a lengthy debate by the board of education over whether to separate school bathrooms and locker rooms by the sex assigned at birth or by gender identity, The Boston Globe reported."

 

[Ixian]

They can not care all they want, they'll be forced to care after another student who had to wait 15 minutes for a shit reports them for vaping because they decided to be an asshole. Or they get beat up for being an asshole, or they get physically dragged out of the bathroom, or people in line simply don't even let them into the bathroom, or someone steals their vape, etc.

Or due to time/space constraints some students just won't be able to vape.

1. Reporting them won't stop them, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.

2. Physical assault is unlikely, more likely the student needing to use the restroom goes to a different one and maybe ends up late for class. Good imagination though.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Where did you get that trans students were already allowed in the restroom of their choice?

I didn't.

1. Reporting them won't stop them, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.

2. Physical assault is unlikely, more likely the student needing to use the restroom goes to a different one and maybe ends up late for class. Good imagination though.

1. Students are more likely to report wrongdoing if they are personally inconvenienced by it.

2. 100% depends on the school.

It doesn't even actually have to work, it just has to be something the Board believes would work.

 

[Ixian]

I didn't.

Then clarify the bolded please.

"'The school board used a dumb excuse to justify a vaping crackdown' sounds a lot more rational to me than 'the school board is engaged in psychological culture warfare to destroy private spaces despite the students already being for trans students being allowed to use the restroom; meanwhile the school board does nothing that actually enables trans students to be comfortable in spaces not of their birth gender.'"

Ohhhh, I see where I misunderstood you. You said the students were in support of allowing it.

Except that isn't true either, at least not for all the students. There are video interviews with some of the girls who made it very clear they didn't want boys in their restrooms, I would feel safe assuming the opposite is true for some of the boys.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Then clarify the bolded please.

"'The school board used a dumb excuse to justify a vaping crackdown' sounds a lot more rational to me than 'the school board is engaged in psychological culture warfare to destroy private spaces despite the students already being for trans students being allowed to use the restroom; meanwhile the school board does nothing that actually enables trans students to be comfortable in spaces not of their birth gender.'"

The statement means that the students support trans students being allowed to use the restroom [of their choice]. It says nothing about whether or not they are currently allowed to do so.