Two Iraq-Syria early 21st century alternate history questions

WolfBear

Well-known member
1. What would a US President Hillary Clinton's policy towards Syria have been had she won the US Presidency in 2008 and subsequently won reelection in 2012?

2. How would Iraq and Syria have looked like during the Arab Spring in the 2010s had Al Gore won the US Presidency back in 2000?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Also, would there be any realistic chance of an Iranian and/or Western military intervention into Iraq during the Arab Spring in a TL where Saddam Hussein is not overthrown beforehand? And how does this affect any plans that NATO might have had for Libya during this time?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
One take on this:


But never mind that. This is an interesting counterfactual: What would have happened to Iraq during the Arab Spring and Syrian uprising if Saddam had endured? Clinton implicitly assumes that ISIS advancing on Baghdad is the worst possible outcome of the past 10 years, which is the smart play politically when your wife’s desperate to appease the anti-war left en route to her party’s nomination. Is it true, though? Assume that Egyptians had toppled Mubarak in 2011 with Saddam watching from Baghdad. At a minimum, he would have cracked down hard on Iraq’s Shiites to suppress an insurrection before it caught fire, and if you know anything about the 1991 Shiite uprising, you know how much blood a Saddam “crackdown” could draw. Meanwhile, maybe the Sunnis across the border in Syria, inspired by Mubarak’s ouster, still would have revolted against Assad. What would have been Saddam’s move then? He could have come to Assad’s rescue, one Baathist defending another from a rebellion in the name of protecting autocracy, but his relations with Assad were poor so he may well have stood pat — in which case Iran might have moved to defend Assad, fearing that the Sunnis in Syria would overrun the Shiite regime just as Saddam was crushing the Shiites in Iraq. That would have put Iranian forces on two of Iraq’s borders, an encirclement Saddam couldn’t tolerate. In which case, maybe he’d throw in with Syria’s Sunnis in the name of bleeding Iran. He wasn’t above cooperating with terrorists when it served his interests; in fact, one of his chief henchmen is rumored to be working with ISIS right now against Maliki. Would a long proxy war in Syria, with Saddam and Sunni jihadis on one side and Iran, Hezbollah, and Assad on the other, have been better or worse for the region? The virtue of it, such as it is, is that it would have kept a gigantic mess of degenerates fighting with each other instead of thinking about America. What the death toll would have looked like, though, heaven only knows. That’s the thing about the Middle East — there’s really no such thing as a good outcome. That’s the point Clinton should have made vis-a-vis the hubris of the U.S. invasion, not raising a counterfactual that relies on Saddam Hussein as some sort of moderating force.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
1. What would a US President Hillary Clinton's policy towards Syria have been had she won the US Presidency in 2008 and subsequently won reelection in 2012?
Given her statements at the time and currently vis-a-vis Russia she would have invaded on the pretext of the supposed gas attacks. In fact we'd probably have had a shit-ton more wars because of her.

2. How would Iraq and Syria have looked like during the Arab Spring in the 2010s had Al Gore won the US Presidency back in 2000?
Gore said he would likely have invaded Iraq anyway, so likely a lot would play out similarly, though the question is open about how competent the occupation would have been under him rather than Rumsfeld's stupid plan of 'rolling in light'.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Given her statements at the time and currently vis-a-vis Russia she would have invaded on the pretext of the supposed gas attacks. In fact we'd probably have had a shit-ton more wars because of her.


Gore said he would likely have invaded Iraq anyway, so likely a lot would play out similarly, though the question is open about how competent the occupation would have been under him rather than Rumsfeld's stupid plan of 'rolling in light'.

You mean in 2013?

Gore opposed the Iraq War in 2002 because he did not believe that the timing and circumstances were right for it back then, no?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
You mean in 2013?
Yes. Wasn't that what you meant?

Gore opposed the Iraq War in 2002 because he did not believe that the timing and circumstances were right for it back then, no?
He was out of government and could make an outsider's campaign against it like Obama did. Obama later said had he had access to the intel given to congress at the time he would have voted for the war.

His makes the case that Gore in power would have invaded:
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Yes. Wasn't that what you meant?


He was out of government and could make an outsider's campaign against it like Obama did. Obama later said had he had access to the intel given to congress at the time he would have voted for the war.

His makes the case that Gore in power would have invaded:

Yes, I did.

And where exactly did Obama say that?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Yes, I did.

And where exactly did Obama say that?
In 2004, but it looks like google won't show it when I search. So I had to go back to Clinton's 2008 gaff when he talked about it:
You can read the more of the lead-up here but the gist is that Clinton was blasting Obama continuously bashing his wife for voting for the 2002 Iraq resolution while Obama said in 2004 he didn't know how he would have voted on it had he been in the Senate at the time:
The link is broken BTW. Seems like they really tried to scrub the remark from the internet.

It is also mentioned here, but again the supporting link is broken:
July 26, 2004: ''But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. 'What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point, the case was not made.''
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
In 2004, but it looks like google won't show it when I search. So I had to go back to Clinton's 2008 gaff when he talked about it:

The link is broken BTW. Seems like they really tried to scrub the remark from the internet.

It is also mentioned here, but again the supporting link is broken:

So, he said that he doesn't know what he would have done with the relevant intelligence, only that he opposed it from his specific vantage point--as in, without ever actually seeing the relevant intelligence.

But a US President Al Gore would have gotten access to all sorts of intelligence without it being skewed or manipulated. And Bill Clinton had eight years to remove Saddam Hussein but didn't. Did Al Gore ever criticize Bill Clinton for not removing Saddam Hussein while he was still Clinton's VP?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
But a US President Al Gore would have gotten access to all sorts of intelligence without it being skewed or manipulated.
Oh buddy, no. Presidents get manipulated too.

And Bill Clinton had eight years to remove Saddam Hussein but didn't. Did Al Gore ever criticize Bill Clinton for not removing Saddam Hussein while he was still Clinton's VP?
By international treaty he really couldn't. I'm not sure about the Hussein issue while Clinton was prez. Gore was kind of a non-entity from what I recall.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Oh buddy, no. Presidents get manipulated too.


By international treaty he really couldn't. I'm not sure about the Hussein issue while Clinton was prez. Gore was kind of a non-entity from what I recall.

If they're idiots, maybe. Smart Presidents could at least try to think for themselves. For instance, JFK and Vietnam.

By international treaty he really couldn't.

How so and what exactly would have changed in regards to this after 9/11? BTW, the Clinton Administration had no problem violating international law with its 1999 Kosovo intervention. They believed that it's OK to violate international law for a legitimate purpose yet apparently did not believe that the goal of overthrowing Saddam Hussein was sufficiently urgent to actually overthrow him. What would have actually changed in regards to this between 2000 and 2003?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
If they're idiots, maybe. Smart Presidents could at least try to think for themselves. For instance, JFK and Vietnam.
Bay of Pigs. He fell for it too. Look what happened to him though when he tried to act independently though.

How so and what exactly would have changed in regards to this after 9/11? BTW, the Clinton Administration had no problem violating international law with its 1999 Kosovo intervention. They believed that it's OK to violate international law for a legitimate purpose yet apparently did not believe that the goal of overthrowing Saddam Hussein was sufficiently urgent to actually overthrow him. What would have actually changed in regards to this between 2000 and 2003?
1998 bombing to distract from the Lewinsky scandal. Kosovo is one thing, needing 450,000 men for an invasion and occupation of Iraq for years is an entirely different thing. Bush tried to cheap out and look what happened.
What could have changed was the realization that the economy was fucked and trying to take Iraqi oil would enhance American power in the world. Plus foreign wars juice the economy and distract from domestic issues. Remember by 2000 the dot com bubble burst and all the festering problems left unaddressed since the 1970s were coming home to roost especially as the internet disrupted the economy further; it created the illusion of growth, but the recession in 2000 really drove home how without major changes to the economy things were only going to get worse; Bush tripled down on papering over the problems, while Clinton actively made them worse. Gore was basically little more than Clinton 2.0 so probably would get suckered into to Iraq all the same. IMHO. Because it was impossible to deal with the economy given the way the ruling class in the US just wanted increasing global hegemony, not domestic reform.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Bay of Pigs. He fell for it too. Look what happened to him though when he tried to act independently though.


1998 bombing to distract from the Lewinsky scandal. Kosovo is one thing, needing 450,000 men for an invasion and occupation of Iraq for years is an entirely different thing. Bush tried to cheap out and look what happened.
What could have changed was the realization that the economy was fucked and trying to take Iraqi oil would enhance American power in the world. Plus foreign wars juice the economy and distract from domestic issues. Remember by 2000 the dot com bubble burst and all the festering problems left unaddressed since the 1970s were coming home to roost especially as the internet disrupted the economy further; it created the illusion of growth, but the recession in 2000 really drove home how without major changes to the economy things were only going to get worse; Bush tripled down on papering over the problems, while Clinton actively made them worse. Gore was basically little more than Clinton 2.0 so probably would get suckered into to Iraq all the same. IMHO. Because it was impossible to deal with the economy given the way the ruling class in the US just wanted increasing global hegemony, not domestic reform.

JFK learned the lessons from the BoP by not doing anything similar in the future.

And you don't think that the sheer cost and manpower requirements of an Iraq invasion would have deterred Gore just like they deterred Clinton?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
JFK learned the lessons from the BoP by not doing anything similar in the future.
Well he half assed it. And when he tried to go against the foreign policy establishment he got his brains blown out. Trump just got his character assassinated.

And you don't think that the sheer cost and manpower requirements of an Iraq invasion would have deterred Gore just like they deterred Clinton?
1990s vs. 2000s is a different situation. Pre and post economic trouble.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Well he half assed it. And when he tried to go against the foreign policy establishment he got his brains blown out. Trump just got his character assassinated.


1990s vs. 2000s is a different situation. Pre and post economic trouble.

How exactly did JFK half-ass it? And what exactly makes you think that the US Deep State killed JFK?

So, you think that Gore will conclude that a US war in Iraq will provide the US with a badly needed economic boost/boom?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
How exactly did JFK half-ass it?
Refused the air support for the invasion that the CIA demanded.

And what exactly makes you think that the US Deep State killed JFK?
Lots of plausible theories there. And that he said he was going to disband the CIA when he got back from Texas. Also he fired Dulles and Dulles apparently made several several threatening statements in private.

So, you think that Gore will conclude that a US war in Iraq will provide the US with a badly needed economic boost/boom?
I think the foreign policy establishment would think that, so Gore would do as told.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
@sillygoose Why did JFK refuse to provide air support for the Bay of Pigs?

Also, off-topic, but do you think that there is any realistic way for a Saddam Hussein that somehow remains in power to make a move on the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Syria during the Arab Spring?
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
@sillygoose Why did JFK refuse to provide air support for the Bay of Pigs?

Also, off-topic, but do you think that there is any realistic way for a Saddam Hussein that somehow remains in power to make a move on the Sunni Arab-majority parts of Syria during the Arab Spring?

AFAIK, wanted the invasion to look homegrown and homemade in Cuba. Like Castro's revolution.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Problem was it was custom-artificially made and if memory serves me right, some were tied to the previous Batista government. So, legitimacy was already out of the window.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
If they're idiots, maybe. Smart Presidents could at least try to think for themselves. For instance, JFK and Vietnam.



How so and what exactly would have changed in regards to this after 9/11? BTW, the Clinton Administration had no problem violating international law with its 1999 Kosovo intervention. They believed that it's OK to violate international law for a legitimate purpose yet apparently did not believe that the goal of overthrowing Saddam Hussein was sufficiently urgent to actually overthrow him. What would have actually changed in regards to this between 2000 and 2003?

JFK wasn't exactly known for that. He got influenced on Brazil even by his equally horny ass brother.
 

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