Alternate History Ultra-Evil USSR

[Zyobot]

FWIW, I was thinking of someone who was not particularly well-known in real life--someone who will gradually emerge out of the shadows after Stalin's death and cultivate people with his charisma. It could even be an ordinary person just so long as he won't get liquidated before he's able to seize power.

Well, we've had plenty of mountain-moving dark horses who'd have otherwise died unknown and insignificant IOTL, so I suppose there's room for that, too.

Problem is, that doesn't leave us with much to work with, unless we either extrapolate what their counterparts may be like to the extreme or come up with entirely fictional characters to fill the void.

 

[sillygoose]

What about having Hitler take Moscow in 1941, thus causing a Soviet collapse in either 1942 or 1943 and in the Soviet Union retreating to the east of the Urals, after which point Stalin becomes even more paranoid and proceeds to aggressively murder millions or even tens of millions of people for betraying him? After all, if it wasn't for their alleged betrayal, then how exactly could the Soviet Union have actually been pushed back to the east of the Urals? Due to Stalin's incompetence? No, don't be crazy!

Stalin likely wouldn't survive long enough to make it to the Urals. Kubiyshev (sp?) was the place for the government to evacuate to, but if Moscow is lost the Soviet regime wouldn't last since that city was the symbol of their power and its loss, likely followed soon by Leningrad due to the logistics collapsing without the Moscow RR to the city, would break whatever power Stalin had over the military and public. He was concerned that the loss of Stalingrad would have been enough for him to be overthrown IOTL. IMHO the USSR falls into a warlord period if Moscow falls and cannot quickly be retaken. Active resistance stops and famine takes over in many places within the USSR.

Not a great POD for an ultra-evil USSR, just mass starvation in the former USSR as food supplies and central administration fall apart. Perhaps the army takes over with Zhukov in charge...given his reputation for butchery of his troops that might result in a lot of loss of life if he tries to pursue the war and fights it out with Beria for control over the rump USSR.

Well, we've had plenty of mountain-moving dark horses who'd have otherwise died unknown and insignificant IOTL, so I suppose there's room for that.

Problem is, that doesn't leave us with much to work with, unless we either extrapolate what their counterparts may be like to the extreme or come up with entirely fictional characters to fill the void.

Not really much room left for unknowns to take power by 1941. The powerful were the only ones who could seize power, which might be Beria, who styled himself a potential Czar after Stalin's OTL death (maybe at his hands...) and wasn't particularly communist according to the people who purged him as a result.

 

[WolfBear]

or come up with entirely fictional characters to fill the void.

Do that, then!

Stalin likely wouldn't survive long enough to make it to the Urals. Kubiyshev (sp?) was the place for the government to evacuate to, but if Moscow is lost the Soviet regime wouldn't last since that city was the symbol of their power and its loss, likely followed soon by Leningrad due to the logistics collapsing without the Moscow RR to the city, would break whatever power Stalin had over the military and public. He was concerned that the loss of Stalingrad would have been enough for him to be overthrown IOTL. IMHO the USSR falls into a warlord period if Moscow falls and cannot quickly be retaken. Active resistance stops and famine takes over in many places within the USSR.

Not a great POD for an ultra-evil USSR, just mass starvation in the former USSR as food supplies and central administration fall apart. Perhaps the army takes over with Zhukov in charge...given his reputation for butchery of his troops that might result in a lot of loss of life if he tries to pursue the war and fights it out with Beria for control over the rump USSR.

What about having some demagogue fill the void during this time of crisis, similar to what Savonarola did in Florence in 1494 after the French invaded that city?

 

[sillygoose]

What about having some demagogue fill the void during this time of crisis, similar to what Savonarola did in Florence in 1494 after the French invaded that city?

Unless they already have power they wouldn't have the warriors to seize control. Likely it would have to be a powerful army officer or clique of officers, which means Zhukov or Rokossovsky. Or Beria with the NKVD. Politicians with just words are not powerful enough in wartime.

 

[WolfBear]

Unless they already have power they wouldn't have the warriors to seize control. Likely it would have to be a powerful army officer or clique of officers, which means Zhukov or Rokossovsky. Or Beria with the NKVD. Politicians with just words are not powerful enough in wartime.

Unless they can form militias of their own, like Mullah Omar was able to do in 1990s Afghanistan with the Taliban.

 

[Zyobot]

Unless they already have power they wouldn't have the warriors to seize control. Likely it would have to be a powerful army officer or clique of officers, which means Zhukov or Rokossovsky. Or Beria with the NKVD. Politicians with just words are not powerful enough in wartime.

Unless they can form militias of their own, like Mullah Omar was able to do in 1990s Afghanistan with the Taliban.

So, while I'm interested in the budding side-discussion here, I don't suppose you could please continue it in a new thread?

I'd like to keep discussing realistic PoDs for my initial scenario, which don't necessarily call for a dilapidated USSR-in-exile after Moscow falls in '41.

 

[Zyobot]

I've suggested it before and @Circle of Willis was kind enough to respond, but I wonder if having Lazar Kaganovich succeed his boss after a bitter power struggle could do it?

Him being an ardent Stalinist and completely devoid of Beria or Khrushchev's pragmatic liberality, we can at least be sure the USSR will continue down the repressive, purge-happy path. Granted, his heritage makes it less likely he'll sign off on a Soviet Holocaust, though judging by his role in orchestrating the Holodomor (despite being Ukrainian himself), such hope may be misplaced. Especially as Kaganovich ages and the Soviets obtain a first-rate nuclear arsenal heading into the Sixties, with his infamous temper lending itself well to impatience, jealousy, and a frighteningly murderous approach to problem-solving. Needless to say, he'd unquestionably be one of the last people to entrust the nuclear codes towards, though I'm still not sure if he'd be kill-crazy enough to devolve into Red Hitler or the Soviet Pol Pot. (Well, ignoring his odds of recklessly blundering the USSR into nuclear war with the West, anyway, consequences be damned.)

 

[WolfBear]

I've suggested it before and @Circle of Willis was kind enough to respond, but I wonder if having Lazar Kaganovich succeed his boss after a bitter power struggle could do it?

Him being an ardent Stalinist and completely devoid of Beria or Khrushchev's pragmatic liberality, we can at least be sure the USSR will continue down the repressive, purge-happy path. Granted, his heritage makes it less likely he'll sign off on a Soviet Holocaust, though judging by his role in orchestrating the Holodomor (despite being Ukrainian himself), such hope may be misplaced. Especially as Kaganovich ages and the Soviets obtain a first-rate nuclear arsenal heading into the Sixties, with his infamous temper lending itself well to impatience, jealousy, and a frighteningly murderous approach to problem-solving. Needless to say, he'd unquestionably be one of the last people to entrust the nuclear codes towards, though I'm still not sure if he'd be kill-crazy enough to devolve into Red Hitler or the Soviet Pol Pot. (Well, ignoring his odds of recklessly blundering the USSR into nuclear war with the West, anyway, consequences be damned.)

If you want Nazi-style atrocities in the Soviet Union, you could see Kaganovich deporting the entire population of both western Ukraine and the Baltics to Siberia or wherever as a punishment for their Nazi collaboration during World War II. Would that work for this?

 

[Zyobot]

If you want Nazi-style atrocities in the Soviet Union, you could see Kaganovich deporting the entire population of both western Ukraine and the Baltics to Siberia or wherever as a punishment for their Nazi collaboration during World War II. Would that work for this?

Sure, if it's death camps they're carted off to and Kaganovich specifically wants their annihilation, rather than "mere" mass-deportations with lots of "collateral" deaths.

I'm not sure whether he'd consign Eastern Europe to a similar (if more gradually implemented) fate, but I assume he'd refrain from razing all of Germany immediately, again due to how it'd provoke the West too early. Nonetheless, I can still see him pulling an ATL Yezhov and making former Axis countries first-priority targets out of spite, as well as making good on that threat once the USSR is finally ready for a nuclear showdown with the capitalist world.

 

[WolfBear]

Sure, if it's death camps they're carted off to and Kaganovich specifically wants their annihilation, rather than "mere" mass-deportations with lots of "collateral" deaths.

I'm not sure whether he'd consign Eastern Europe to a similar (if more gradually implemented) fate, but I assume he'd refrain from razing all of Germany immediately, again due to how it'd provoke the West too early. Nonetheless, I can still see him pulling an ATL Yezhov and making former Axis countries first-priority targets out of spite, as well as making good on that threat once the USSR is finally ready for a nuclear showdown with the capitalist world.

Yeah, makes sense.

As for Eastern Europe, it depends on which countries. Axis collaborator countries like Hungary could certainly share this fate, though countries that were victims of the Axis, or who signed on to the Axis only reluctantly and switched sides later on, would get off easier. So, East Germany and Hungary would likely suffer a severe fate whereas Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, and Czechoslovakia could get off more easily. But of course the West might be willing to agree to German reunification under a neutral Germany in order to spare East Germans from this fate, and Kaganovich, clever son of a bitch that he is, might actually accept this Western offer.

 

[sillygoose]

If you want Nazi-style atrocities in the Soviet Union, you could see Kaganovich deporting the entire population of both western Ukraine and the Baltics to Siberia or wherever as a punishment for their Nazi collaboration during World War II. Would that work for this?

Um...the USSR was an atrocity machine IOTL.

NKVD prisoner massacres - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Great Purge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dekulakization - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Red Terror - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939–1946) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Altogether the Soviets sent roughly a million people from Poland to Siberia.[30] According to Norman Davies,[31] almost half had died by the time the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement had been signed in 1941.[15]

In 1940 and the first half of 1941, the Soviets deported a total of more than 1,200,000 Poles in four waves of mass deportations from the Soviet-occupied Polish territories. The first major operation took place on February 10, 1940, with more than 220,000 people sent primarily to far north and east Russia, including Siberia and Khabarovsk Krai. The second wave of 13 April 1940, consisted of 320,000 people sent primarily to Kazakhstan. The third wave of June–July 1940 totaled more than 240,000. The fourth and final wave occurred in June 1941, deporting 300,000.

Keep in mind that doesn't count the Katyn and related massacres:

The NKVD and other Soviet agencies asserted their control in 1939 as an inherent part of the Sovietization of Kresy. Approximately 250,000 Polish prisoners of war were captured by the USSR during and after the invasion of Poland.[16] As the Soviet Union had not signed international conventions on rules of war, the Polish prisoners were denied legal status. The Soviet forces murdered almost all captured officers, and sent numerous ordinary soldiers to the Soviet Gulag.[17][18]

Something like 50% of those PoWs died too.

In total, the Soviets killed tens of thousands of Polish prisoners of war. Many of them, like General Józef Olszyna-Wilczyński, captured, interrogated and shot on 22 September, were killed during the 1939 campaign.[20][21] On 24 September, 1939, the Soviets killed 42 staff and patients of a Polish military hospital in the village of Grabowiec, near Zamość.[22] The Soviets also executed all the Polish officers they captured after the Battle of Szack, on 28 September.[23]

In one notorious atrocity ordered by Stalin, the Soviet secret police systematically shot and killed 22,000 Poles in a remote area during the Katyn massacre. Among some 14,471 victims were top Polish Army officers, including political leaders, government officials, and intellectuals. Some 4,254 dead bodies were uncovered in mass graves in Katyn Forest by the Nazis in 1943, who invited an international group of neutral representatives and doctors to examine the corpses and confirm the Soviet guilt.[15] 22,000 Polish military personnel and civilians were killed in the Katyn massacre,[2][19] but thousands of others were victims of NKVD massacres of prisoners in mid-1941, before the German advance across the Soviet occupation zone.

The Soviet NKVD executed about 65,000 imprisoned Poles after being subjected to show trials.[15]

Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The forced relocation, slaughter, and conditions during and after transfer have been described as on act of genocide by various scholars as well as the European Parliament[120] on the basis of the IV Hague Convention of 1907 and the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of the U.N. General Assembly (adopted in 1948), including French historian and expert on communist studies Nicolas Werth,[121] German historian Philipp Ther,[4] Professor Anthony James Joes,[122] American journalist Eric Margolis,[123] Canadian political scientist Adam Jones,[124] professor of Islamic History at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth Brian Glyn Williams,[73] scholars Michael Fredholm[125] and Fanny E. Bryan.[14] Raphael Lemkin, a lawyer of Polish-Jewish descent who initiated the Genocide Convention, assumed that genocide was perpetrated in the context of the mass deportation of the Chechens, Ingush, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks and Karachay.[126]

Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I left out most of the deportations and massacres in other areas/against other peoples.

 

[WolfBear]

Um...the USSR was an atrocity machine IOTL.

NKVD prisoner massacres - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Great Purge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dekulakization - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Red Terror - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939–1946) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Keep in mind that doesn't count the Katyn and related massacres:

Something like 50% of those PoWs died too.

Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Deportation of the Chechens and Ingush - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I left out most of the deportations and massacres in other areas/against other peoples.

Oh, sure, the USSR certainly had its fair share of atrocities in real life. But somehow Westerners are much more inclined to think "Nazi!" rather than "Soviet!" when it comes to the worst atrocities of all. Some of this might be due to Western troops liberating prisoners in Nazi concentration camps whereas they did not have any access to Soviet gulags and whatnot, but I wonder if some of this might also be due to the fact that the West never actually fought a direct war with the Soviet Union, at least not after the end of the Russian Civil War.

 

[sillygoose]

Oh, sure, the USSR certainly had its fair share of atrocities in real life. But somehow Westerners are much more inclined to think "Nazi!" rather than "Soviet!" when it comes to the worst atrocities of all. Some of this might be due to Western troops liberating prisoners in Nazi concentration camps whereas they did not have any access to Soviet gulags and whatnot, but I wonder if some of this might also be due to the fact that the West never actually fought a direct war with the Soviet Union, at least not after the end of the Russian Civil War.

I think you're right. Plus we were allied with the Soviets during the war and by making the Nazis out to be the worst monsters in history the US (and all allied powers, even modern Russia) can claim moral superiority for defeating them.
That's not to say the Nazis weren't awful criminals, but they were hardly alone in that during and after WW2. Mao is probably the worst in terms of body count in all of human history, but in terms of percentage of the world population at the time killed off and actually committing full genocide Ghengis Khan will remain the worst.

 

[WolfBear]

I think you're right.

Yeah. If Western forces would have fought the Soviet Union and liberated gulags, then of course things would have been different.

Still, if Kaganovich attempts to deport the entire population of western Ukraine and the Baltics en masse to Siberia and then exterminate them there, this is likely to make the Soviet Union seem as evil as Nazi Germany once word of this extremely massive massacre and genocide will actually get out.

 

[sillygoose]

Yeah. If Western forces would have fought the Soviet Union and liberated gulags, then of course things would have been different.

Still, if Kaganovich attempts to deport the entire population of western Ukraine and the Baltics en masse to Siberia and then exterminate them there, this is likely to make the Soviet Union seem as evil as Nazi Germany once word of this extremely massive massacre and genocide will actually get out.

Sure, but what utility would that have?

 

[WolfBear]

Sure, but what utility would that have?

To punish them for cooperating with the Nazis? Kaganovich, like Hitler, won't make distinctions between good and bad members of "bad" ethnic groups overall.

 

[sillygoose]

To punish them for cooperating with the Nazis? Kaganovich, like Hitler, won't make distinctions between good and bad members of "bad" ethnic groups overall.

Stalin did do that pretty well IOTL, but after the losses of WW2 the Soviets couldn't afford heavy body counts if they were going to rebuild and repopulate.

 

[WolfBear]

Stalin did do that pretty well IOTL, but after the losses of WW2 the Soviets couldn't afford heavy body counts if they were going to rebuild and repopulate.

That's true enough as far as it goes, but Kaganovich can justify this by claiming that he's not touching core Soviet territories and that the people living in the newly annexed Soviet territories are extremely unreliable anyway.

 

[sillygoose]

That's true enough as far as it goes, but Kaganovich can justify this by claiming that he's not touching core Soviet territories and that the people living in the newly annexed Soviet territories are extremely unreliable anyway.

That's what the brutal counter insurgency campaigns of 1944-1950 was for:

Ukrainian Insurgent Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was so bad the NKVD considered West Ukraine a hardship post since alcoholism and suicides were rather rampant in Soviet security forces. Turns out the Germans weren't the only ones to try and kill their way out of an insurgency problem.

Courland Pocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Soviets detained all males between the ages of 16 and 60, and conducted widespread deforestation campaigns, burning tracts of forest to flush out resisters.[5]

 

[WolfBear]

That's what the brutal counter insurgency campaigns of 1944-1950 was for:

Ukrainian Insurgent Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It was so bad the NKVD considered West Ukraine a hardship post since alcoholism and suicides were rather rampant in Soviet security forces. Turns out the Germans weren't the only ones to try and kill their way out of an insurgency problem.

Courland Pocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting. In regards to the UPA, what ultimately helped the USSR successfully crush them was having their own agents inflitate the movement by posing as aspiring UPA fighters and then betraying the UPA to the USSR by giving them their locations, names, et cetera, I would presume.