Battletech W.I. the Clans were actually White Hats

[The Whispering Monk]

If the Clans were White Hats...

1. How would they have to change?

2. What would their base philosophy be?

3. Why would they be invading?

 

[Spartan303]

Dude, this is so broad a question I can barely even fathom it. Can you give us a little more in terms of what their philosophy is? It would have to be something really attractive to get people onboard for it.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

@Spartan303

It was meant to be broad to see where people would take it. I'm trying not to predispose people's 1st reaction.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Due to a lack of response let's try this...

Klondoke fails miserably because a Pentagon World commander defeats Nicholas Kerensky in single combat then uses total war to obliterate Kerensky's hardline followers.

Rest of the clans turn to embrace the Arthurian ideals of this Pentagon leader.

Consequences?

 

[PsihoKekec]

Which commander, there were dozens of them? The closest I thin came to arthurian ideals was the Brotherhood of Fianna and they didn't exactly like total war.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Which commander, there were dozens of them? The closest I thin came to arthurian ideals was the Brotherhood of Fianna and they didn't exactly like total war.

My reference to Total War is more an emphasis on those tactics that combine fires onto a single target to reduce it more quickly. You know...the tactics that the clans look down on. It is NOT an emphasis on indiscriminate destruction or the Sherman school of warfare.

As for which commander? I'd probably have to create one. Like you said, I don't think there's one that fits the bill historically.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Sarah McEvedy will lead us to a better future!

 

[Deleted member]

Well, we have to define the ways the clans are not white hats, and then begin to answer it from there.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Well, we have to define the ways the clans are not white hats, and then begin to answer it from there.

Valid point.

Reasons the Clans are ass hats...errr...🎩🎩
1. Treatment of lower castes as virtual slaves
2. Pure belief that might makes right
3. Assumption that the Inner Sphere, and it's people, are less than they are
4. Hypocrisy of despising waste, but happily waste lives in the training of warriors as well as the waste of 'old' warriors

I'll start with those points.

 

[S'task]

1. Treatment of lower castes as virtual slaves

Not true of a good chunk of the clans already. Ghost Bears, Goliath Scorpions, Cloud Cobra, Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes, and Blood Spirits off the top of head all had much more fair treatment of lower castes (sort of, Blood Spirits kinda treated everyone equally assholishly?).

2. Pure belief that might makes right

Again... not really true of a lot of the Clans? Sure, their Trial system is functionally set up around that... but then, the Trial system is supposed to be a replacement for larger scale war where might does make right. However, many of the Clans had other core beliefs that drove them. Ghost Bears valued "family". Goliath Scorpions valued the past and history. Cloud Cobras were straight up warrior-monks and deeply religious. Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes followed the almighty dollar. It was mostly the strict Crusader Clans whom had little to define them outside of being a Clan whom really embraced that ideal.

3. Assumption that the Inner Sphere, and it's people, are less than they are

That was only an assumption of the Crusader Clans.

Warden clans pretty much didn't think that. Sure they felt their society was BETTER than Inner Sphere society but, well, to be frank, that's the NORM for BattleTech. FedSuns feel they are superior to Dracs, Dracs feel they are superior to Lyrans, etc. So I really don't see the idea "we think our society and culture are superior to yours" to be a "bad guy" trait in BattleTech...

4. Hypocrisy of despising waste, but happily waste lives in the training of warriors as well as the waste of 'old' warriors

We do not see the training methods of any Clan but the Jade Falcons, and other clans handled older warriors differently, not all the Clans just shoved them in infantry units to die, as such, we can ALSO assume that save for the live fire trials, other Clans handled training differently. As to older warriors, some put them into retirement. In the Diamond Sharks almost ALL warriors retired to the Merchant Caste at some point, hell, some even did so young if they felt they weren't going to earn a bloodname, and weren't really thought lesser for it.

Honestly, that list of "problems" with the Clans seems to be mostly about one specific Clan... the Jade Falcons...

 

[Deleted member]

So at what point does War-for-Peace make them Black Hats? At what point does their treatment of their own people condemn them? Did they really know what they were going to do when they finally conquered the Inner Sphere? Would they have, in fact, imposed Clan society on all of the Inner Sphere? That might be the biggest question to judge the point on.

 

[S'task]

Did they really know what they were going to do when they finally conquered the Inner Sphere?

Given the fluff we see around the Clan declaration of war on the Inner Sphere and the initiation of "Operation Return" I think it's pretty clear to say that... no, they had no long term plan. This is especially clear given how pretty much every Invading Clan ended up handling their occupation zone completely differently and ended up doing completely different things.

Would they have, in fact, imposed Clan society on all of the Inner Sphere? That might be the biggest question to judge the point on.

Again, depends on the Clans. The Jade Falcons, Steel Vipers, and Smoke Jags? Yup, they certainly planned to. Clan Wolf? Pretty clearly did not, in fact, it appeared that Ulric's initial plan in the invasion was to become the ilClan by taking Terra and then having the Clans withdraw from the Inner Sphere. Clan Ghost Bear... now that's an interesting one because they didn't really enforce Clan Society on their conquered territory, but they also didn't leave it alone, rather, taking a third way and ended up merging with the Inner Sphere lands they conquered becoming something new. So once again we have a wide variety of options and this time they don't split cleanly along Warden and Crusader ideologies.

 

[Deleted member]

Given the fluff we see around the Clan declaration of war on the Inner Sphere and the initiation of "Operation Return" I think it's pretty clear to say that... no, they had no long term plan. This is especially clear given how pretty much every Invading Clan ended up handling their occupation zone completely differently and ended up doing completely different things.

So, arguably, each clan has to be judged by its own objectives and behaviour?

Again, depends on the Clans. The Jade Falcons, Steel Vipers, and Smoke Jags? Yup, they certainly planned to. Clan Wolf? Pretty clearly did not, in fact, it appeared that Ulric's initial plan in the invasion was to become the ilClan by taking Terra and then having the Clans withdraw from the Inner Sphere. Clan Ghost Bear... now that's an interesting one because they didn't really enforce Clan Society on their conquered territory, but they also didn't leave it alone, rather, taking a third way and ended up merging with the Inner Sphere lands they conquered becoming something new. So once again we have a wide variety of options and this time they don't split cleanly along Warden and Crusader ideologies.

Then arguably it's hard to say that we can just reduce it to "The Clans" were black hats, and have to look at each one in isolation, right?

 

[Husky_Khan]

If the Clans were White Hats...

1. How would they have to change?

2. What would their base philosophy be?

3. Why would they be invading?

They would probably still try to follow the ideals of the Star League if anything since that would be the most obvious thing to follow. After the entire clan system was sorted out after the Pentagon Wars, the idea of having not enough non-combatants would've been resolved and they could try and just build a society from that basis. They wouldn't have to be adherent to their old Inner Sphere loyalties but instead of adopting some Clan System, they could adopt more Star League ideals and try and work their philosophy from there. For that to happen though, Nicholas Kerensky would have to not be such a despotic loon in trying to create his ideal society and others like the Wolverines would have to take the lead in forming their society into something closer to what they came from and were actually wanting to salvage in the first place.

But yeah, the question is so broad it's hard to find a starting point. Especially when it comes to the first two questions... because the third question actually seems to be the easiest. They're invading the Inner Sphere to put an end to all of the chaotic, destructive Succession Wars and infighting.