Warbirds Thread

[paulobrito]

To note that the French Dewoitine D.520 also has a 20mm cannon 'motor cannon' in 1940.

 

[bintananth]

No, I'm afraid that's the opposite of what actually happened.

The British were one of the very last major powers to adopt 20mm autocannons on single-engine fighters; the Japanese and Germans had autocannon fighters even pre-war, whereas the British only had a low-priority development program which produced no usable autocannon fighters. The British did not actually prioritize autocannon fighters until the Germans effectively rubbed their faces with the relative ineffectiveness of rifle-caliber machine guns, and even then, only the Hurricane was successfully fitted with four 20mm Hispano early on. Early attempts at a four-cannon Spitfire demonstrated severe freezing issues with the cannon feeds, so this armament was only used in the tropics; a fully reliable all-cannon Spitfire was not achieved until mid-1944 with the introduction of the "E" pattern wing.

The United States planned to go all-autocannon even before the war, but their efforts were completely ruined by the Bureau of Ordnance making an incorrectly sized firing chamber on the 20mm Hispano and then doubling down on its mistake by outright prohibiting production of correctly sized chambers.

That's a bit different from what I read.

From what I remember reading Germany took the Bf109 from two to three machine guns when they heard that the Hurricane and Spitfire plans called for four and upped that to four, then five, then two plus two cannons (Bf109E-3) when they realized the British decided to go with eight instead of four.

 

[gral]

The modified Defiant was nearly as fast and maneuverable as a contemporary Spitfire while mounting the heaviest gun armament of any single-engine British fighter: four 20mm autocannon *AND* four .303 machine guns.

I think the plans for the turretless Defiant variants originally called for 12 .303 machine guns(early iterations of the Hawker Typhoon also planned to use that armament, and there was a Hurricane subvariant that had it, IIRC).

 

[bintananth]

I think the plans for the turretless Defiant variants originally called for 12 .303 machine guns(early iterations of the Hawker Typhoon also planned to use that armament, and there was a Hurricane subvariant that had it, IIRC).

British aircraft variants get weird. The Swordfish Mk.III was an open cockpit string-and-fabric biplane with radar.

I think the British took a "WTF, why not? May as well, it might work." approach with some of their stranger aircraft variants.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I think the plans for the turretless Defiant variants originally called for 12 .303 machine guns(early iterations of the Hawker Typhoon also planned to use that armament, and there was a Hurricane subvariant that had it, IIRC).

Either/or.

The British Air Ministry's Specification F.18/37 was an official request for a single-engine fighter armed with twelve machine guns; the Hawker Tornado and Typhoon were parallel designs that Hawker put forth to fulfill that specification. Bristol's submission was the turretless Defiant derivative mentioned, and there were also designs from Gloster and Supermarine. Due to delayed progress with the Westland Whirlwind project, the Air Ministry later asked for all the F.18/37 proposals to be revised with a 20mm cannon armament. The various different proposals all did this a little differently; the Hawker was revised to four cannons, the Supermarine to six cannons, and the Defiant to four cannons and four machine guns.

 

[PsihoKekec]

British aircraft variants get weird. The Swordfish Mk.III was an open cockpit string-and-fabric biplane with radar.

It was downward pointing radar, used for submarine detection, at the time it was the carrier aircraft of theirs that was most suited to anti-submarine patrols, due to it's fuel endurance and low minimum speed was a bonus when keeping enemy submarine submerged.

 

[Vargas Fan]

Well the Albacore had a heavy framed cockpit as well as other 'enhancements' that didn't seem to serve as well. I think the FAA pilots favoured the open cockpit design for visibility, at least in certain circumstances.

 

[BF110C4]

Thing is that despite the victories at Taranto and against Bismark as a torpedo bomber the Swordfish was far too slow for frontline duties, but having a plane capable of taking off almost without the help of a tailwind and with minimal maintenance and repair times made it ideal for escort carrier and particularly Merchant Aircraft Carriers (MAC) which were so small and slow the only aircraft they could carry were variants of the Swordfish Mk I and II.

That's why the Swordfish had a radar bolted, there was literally no other plane capable of providing anti-submarine air cover to low priority convoys in the Atlantic, especially at night.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Thing is that despite the victories at Taranto and against Bismark as a torpedo bomber the Swordfish was far too slow for frontline duties, but having a plane capable of taking off almost without the help of a tailwind and with minimal maintenance and repair times made it ideal for escort carrier and particularly Merchant Aircraft Carriers (MAC) which were so small and slow the only aircraft they could carry were variants of the Swordfish Mk I and II.

That's why the Swordfish had a radar bolted, there was literally no other plane capable of providing anti-submarine air cover to low priority convoys in the Atlantic, especially at night.

Then the USN goes 'we've got escort carriers that can use more modern carrier aircraft' and started producing the damn things like their donuts.

 

[Vargas Fan]

Then the USN goes 'we've got escort carriers that can use more modern carrier aircraft' and started producing the damn things like their donuts.

Unfortunately some escort carriers were not very well produced, HMS Dasher is a case in point, an Avenger class Escort Carrier, one book I have mentions that the carrier had damage on her first atlantic crossing exposing parts of the superstructure to the elements. She was one of the earliest designs though.

HMS Dasher (D37) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ATP]

To note that the French Dewoitine D.520 also has a 20mm cannon 'motor cannon' in 1940.

Like MS406 earlier and Arsenal VG33.And it worked well till 1942,during american invasion of Tunisia they fought well against F4F,and in 1941 in Lebannon they were as good as Hurricanes,and massacred british navy planes.

Dewointe had prototype of better D.523,and much better D.551,too.France wonted sell it to Spain,but germans stopped it to sell Me 109.And since Vichy was making D.520,they could made D.551 if germans allowed.
In that case - maybe Tunisia landing was actually stopped by french ? they would need better bombers,too - but it would be funny.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Unfortunately some escort carriers were not very well produced, HMS Dasher is a case in point, an Avenger class Escort Carrier, one book I have mentions that the carrier had damage on her first atlantic crossing exposing parts of the superstructure to the elements. She was one of the earliest designs though.

HMS Dasher (D37) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

True, but you've got to remember the US military's retention rate was, to be frank, shit. Largely because Congress would rather starve the US military than fund it.

 

[Harlock]

 

[Harlock]

You know they say that sometimes you can hear a picture?

This picture is the Top Gun soundtrack

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Agreed that the Swordfish was impressive, but again you are making a flawed comparison.

In both the Bismarck and Taranto operations the Swordfish was able to effectively operate without opposition. Bismarck had flawed AAA and Taranto was a soft target for night attacks with no actual night fighters in the sky and limited AAA. When the Swordfish faced actual opposition it was grist for the mill, being too slow and too fragile to survive enemy fire.

And if the Regia Marina had the DC and industrial capability of the USN, then Taranto would have been just as temporary a victory. Again, apples and oranges.

So yes, Swordfish gets an honorable mention, it certainly outclassed the Devastator, but it cannot compare to the Japanese torpedo bombers.

Now if you want a frightening thought, the SBD Dauntless... 3.2/1 kill/loss ratio. Lowest number of losses of any aircraft type in the Pacific. Only reason the ratio isn't better is that generally the Dauntless wasn't sent after enemy aircraft. Slow... But Deadly.

Hell Toranto was a temporary victory of all the battleships hit only one didn't rejoin the war and if the Italians had had four more months that would have changed

 

[bintananth]

Hell Toranto was a temporary victory of all the battleships hit only one didn't rejoin the war and if the Italians had had four more months that would have changed

Permanently sinking an anchored dreadnaught pretty much requires a golden BB setting off a magazine explosion or scuttling it.

Vanguard, Royal Oak, Arizona, and Mutsu come to mind for magazine explosion.

Utah wasn't sunk by either cause and an attempt was made to right an refloat her. It didn't work and she's now a memorial.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Hell Toranto was a temporary victory of all the battleships hit only one didn't rejoin the war and if the Italians had had four more months that would have changed

However it did give the British an edge at crucial time, battle of Matapan would probably go very differently if Italians had four battleships instead of one.

 

[bintananth]

However it did give the British an edge at crucial time, battle of Matapan would probably go very differently if Italians had four battleships instead of one.

All of which would have been several knots faster than the three the British brought to that battle.

 

[Harlock]

Then the USN goes 'we've got escort carriers that can use more modern carrier aircraft' and started producing the damn things like their donuts.

It wouldn't matter, it isn't the ship or numbers that count it is the weather.

That is a 90 thousand ton supercarrier, imagine a 7 thousand ton CVE in the same conditions
Doesn't matter what planes you carry, nothing is launching in those conditions. Unless of course you are a Swordfish in which case those conditions would be classed as a bit breezy

The attack on the Bismarck was launched in weather like that with 60 foot waves breaking over the bow of the Carrier requiring pilots to time their takeoff so they didn't fly straight into the sea. They had to launch into a crosswind because a headwind would have blown the planes off the back of the ship before they could gather speed, and the difference between the landing speed and stall speed was all of six knots

No other plane was robust enough to launch in those conditions which is why they kept them around. Avengers or Barracudas replaced Swordfish on big carriers but they still had a place in the North Atlantic

 

[bintananth]

It wouldn't matter, it isn't the ship or numbers that count it is the weather.

That is a 90 thousand ton supercarrier, imagine a 7 thousand ton CVE in the same conditions
Doesn't matter what planes you carry, nothing is launching in those conditions. Unless of course you are a Swordfish in which case those conditions would be classed as a bit breezy

The attack on the Bismarck was launched in weather like that with 60 foot waves breaking over the bow of the Carrier requiring pilots to time their takeoff so they didn't fly straight into the sea. They had to launch into a crosswind because a headwind would have blown the planes off the back of the ship before they could gather speed, and the difference between the landing speed and stall speed was all of six knots

No other plane was robust enough to launch in those conditions which is why they kept them around. Avengers or Barracudas replaced Swordfish on big carriers but they still had a place in the North Atlantic

Weather like that is also why RN carrier doctrine kept their planes in the hangar until needed and usually didn't have planes ready to go at a moment's notice on the flight deck.