Warbirds Thread

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Which is hilarious b/c Army bases typically bring in MORE people to pay taxes and buy stuff from local business.

More people doesn't necessarily mean more buying power, however. Also, it is not just buying power: more important are contracts for production and maintenance of weapons and such. That is why F-35 was never going to be abandoned:
53f7b569eab8eab560edb7b3


And keep in mind, "directly responsible for 32 500 jobs" can mean "indirectly responsible for 325 000 jobs". Weapons production requires huge supporting apparatus.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
More people doesn't necessarily mean more buying power, however. Also, it is not just buying power: more important are contracts for production and maintenance of weapons and such. That is why F-35 was never going to be abandoned:
Do you have any idea how much money a single battalion motorpool spends on parts and maintenance?

They ain't as glamorous as the Jets, but trucks and tracks EAT parts on a regular basis. That's doesn't even count all the helicopters!
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Humvees alone.
There are more humvees in the US Army then jets in the AF.
And qe are replacing the humvee
 

Harlock

I should have expected that really
Time to go on a beer run :)

Spitfire-Beer-Kegs.jpg


The Air force providing some useful support to ground troops there by delivering beer to the frontlines. It was even nicely chilled after the flight :D

Apparently the USN did something similar with Ice Cream where a quick flight up to high altitude was enough to set it for immediate consumption upon landing
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Time to go on a beer run :)

Spitfire-Beer-Kegs.jpg


The Air force providing some useful support to ground troops there by delivering beer to the frontlines. It was even nicely chilled after the flight :D

Apparently the USN did something similar with Ice Cream where a quick flight up to high altitude was enough to set it for immediate consumption upon landing
When morale is taken seriously.
 

Harlock

I should have expected that really
Story goes that a British brewery was dedicated to making free beer for the troops but after D-day there was no way to get it to the front. Every truck and ship in Western Europe was packed with more critical war materiel

The air force decided to help, at first they filled drop tanks with beer but that made it taste off, even for English beer :p Some bright chap figured you could hang kegs from the bomb racks, in some cases they added their own home made streamlining to the barrels.
Spitfires like that one were the most famous beer run planes, they used some Typhoons which could carry more but had to stop when the USAAF tried to shoot one down causing it to jettison its payload. Tragic :p

It was never an official mission, just something a bunch of pilots and ground crew decided to do on their own. The brass looked the other way given there wasn't much else for interceptors to be doing.

US planes may have done the same thing a little later after seeing it in action, but apparently it was ice cream that was the absolutely priority :) To an almost fanatical degree
 

BF110C4

Well-known member
Story goes that a British brewery was dedicated to making free beer for the troops but after D-day there was no way to get it to the front. Every truck and ship in Western Europe was packed with more critical war materiel

The air force decided to help, at first they filled drop tanks with beer but that made it taste off, even for English beer :p Some bright chap figured you could hang kegs from the bomb racks, in some cases they added their own home made streamlining to the barrels.
Spitfires like that one were the most famous beer run planes, they used some Typhoons which could carry more but had to stop when the USAAF tried to shoot one down causing it to jettison its payload. Tragic :p

It was never an official mission, just something a bunch of pilots and ground crew decided to do on their own. The brass looked the other way given there wasn't much else for interceptors to be doing.

US planes may have done the same thing a little later after seeing it in action, but apparently it was ice cream that was the absolutely priority :) To an almost fanatical degree
And in the other side of the world it was even more vital for morale. Carriers ransomed downed crews from their rescuing destroyers and submarines (some who did truly heroic efforts to retrieve fallen pilots under enemy fire) with gallons of ice-cream. On a more somber use any marine or soldier who managed to capture a living japanese for interrogation was rewarded with ice-cream and downtime as a way of stopping execution of the unarmed POWs, a grimm reminder of the brutality in the Pacific.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
The degree to which the Air Force abuses the Key West Agreement is really unbelievable. Case in point, the C-27J Spartan program.

Around 2005, the U.S. Army determined that it very badly needed a replacement for the extremely old Short C-23 Sherpa in the short-range tactical cargo role and that a slightly larger replacement could also handle the missions of the C-26 Metroliner and the C-12 Huron. As a result, they started the Future Cargo Aircraft (FCA) program. The Air Force originally opposed the entire existence of this program, pretty much declaring that the Army should just make do with whatever the Air Force deigned to hand down to them, and tough shit if that wasn't good enough. However, the Air Force subsequently also decided that a small short-range tactical airlifter was actually a good idea, and in 2006 started its own rival program for one, the Light Cargo Aircraft. The Department of Defense, seeing that these two programs were essentially identical, merged them into a single program, the Joint Cargo Aircraft.

Long story short: the winner of this program was the C-27J Spartan, an upgrade of the existing Fiat G.222 medium transport (which had been previously adopted in small numbers as the C-27A Spartan) using technology borrowed from the C-130J Hercules. Essentially, the C-27J "copies" the upgrades of the C-130J onto the smaller twin-engine C-27A to fully modernize it at minimal cost with pretty much no development risk. It's a great little plane, albeit one with some industrial politics souring things -- it was originally a joint project between Fiat (renamed Aeritalia, then Alenia, then Alenia Aermacchi, then Leonardo-Finmeccanica, then just Leonardo) and Lockheed, but Lockheed withdrew from the partnership in order to submit the full-sized C-130J for the JCA proposal.

In any case, the Army received its first two Spartans in 2009. . . at which point the Air Force suddenly argued that since the C-27J was more capable than originally planned, it now fell under the "airlift, air transport and resupply" function allotted to the Air Force under the Key West Agreement, as opposed to the organic "aviation and water transport" which Army Aviation was allowed to retain. The Army was forced to relinquish full control of the program to the Air Force. . . which immediately cut the original order of 75 for the Army and 70 for the Air Force to just 38 aircraft. A few years later, the Air Force doubled down and declared that the brand new Spartans were surplus to the Air Force's needs and would be immediately retired, which literally meant that new aircraft would be delivered straight from the factory to the boneyard.

The Air Force subsequently went full Snideley Whiplash and declared that anyone except the Army could have the "surplus" Spartans; they were ultimately donated to the U.S. Coast Guard as search-and-rescue aircraft.
The Air Force should never be indepentant of the Army. It's the boots on the ground which actually get shit done while the Air Force gets all the credit.

BTW: The US Coast Gaurd is not DOD. They are Homeland Security and both law enforcement and emergency first responders.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
The Air Force should never be indepentant of the Army. It's the boots on the ground which actually get shit done while the Air Force gets all the credit.
The problem is the immediate post-WW2 era where the nuke was a thing that comes into play. Remember, at the time it was reasoned that armies and navies were obsolete with the advent of nuclear warfare. The Army would create the Pentomic Divisions while the Navy would carry out numerous nuclear weapon tests (including Crossroads). What would become the USAF had some damn good PR going on to allow the split to happen backed up by technology.

The sad reality is that we're probably going to see the return of air forces being subservient to the army, given the mass development, implementation, and proliferation of viable air defense and competent air defense doctrine. We've already seen what happens when air defense is competent in the missile age (Vietnam's immense loss rate even with the implementation of SEAD/DEAD doctrine and Serbia literally running rings around our SEAD/DEAD doctrine while giving us the stink eye, double bird flip, and giving us a raspberry), and we've already seen that even Arab-level competence can give air forces a right lashing in the right circumstances (i.e. anything going NoE like the Apaches, A-10s, and Tornados on anti-runway runs).
BTW: The US Coast Gaurd is not DOD. They are Homeland Security and both law enforcement and emergency first responders.
Thing is, the US Coast Guard wasn't always the US Coast Guard, it used to be the US Revenue Cutter Service (aka an armed customs service)... and is the second oldest branch of the US armed services (1st is tied with the US Army, the USMC, and the USN) and it -occasionally!- did better than the USN!
 

bintananth

behind a desk
The problem is the immediate post-WW2 era where the nuke was a thing that comes into play. Remember, at the time it was reasoned that armies and navies were obsolete with the advent of nuclear warfare. The Army would create the Pentomic Divisions while the Navy would carry out numerous nuclear weapon tests (including Crossroads). What would become the USAF had some damn good PR going on to allow the split to happen backed up by technology.

The sad reality is that we're probably going to see the return of air forces being subservient to the army, given the mass development, implementation, and proliferation of viable air defense and competent air defense doctrine. We've already seen what happens when air defense is competent in the missile age (Vietnam's immense loss rate even with the implementation of SEAD/DEAD doctrine and Serbia literally running rings around our SEAD/DEAD doctrine while giving us the stink eye, double bird flip, and giving us a raspberry), and we've already seen that even Arab-level competence can give air forces a right lashing in the right circumstances (i.e. anything going NoE like the Apaches, A-10s, and Tornados on anti-runway runs).

Thing is, the US Coast Guard wasn't always the US Coast Guard, it used to be the US Revenue Cutter Service (aka an armed customs service)... and is the second oldest branch of the US armed services (1st is tied with the US Army, the USMC, and the USN) and it -occasionally!- did better than the USN!
They, like the Secret Service, were also part of the Treasury Department when founded.

Do not fuck with American money.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
They, like the Secret Service, were also part of the Treasury Department when founded.

Do not fuck with American money.
Given how willing the US states were when it comes to screwing over the federal government of that money (the Confederation era was basically an era where shit really went downhill and was the poster boy of 'what could go wrong in making a government, did')...

... there is a reason that our customs agents are outright paranoid as a whole for much of US history... because US states proved that you need plenty of paranoia to survive.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
The person taking it later disappeared.
Joking aside that is a great pic
I'm more interested in what's going on in the farm fields than whatever the hell a B-2 leaving low altitude contrails near a mountain range (probably the Ozarks) and just passing through is up to.
 

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