Warhammer Warhammer General discussion thread: Now with 100% more Space Marines

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
I will have TWO detatchments! one is combine darms, the other is the more specialised unit.

Yeah, that's a better idea. If you want to have the infantry in the 2nd detachment be less elite but still good, you can make them scions as well and intentional break their doctrine, while having the second detachment be pure scions. That would fit the contemporary US idea a lot better than having scions in one detachment and regular IG in another, because the performance gap between scions and regular IG is massive.
 

Zachowon

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Yeah, that's a better idea. If you want to have the infantry in the 2nd detachment be less elite but still good, you can make them scions as well and intentional break their doctrine, while having the second detachment be pure scions. That would fit the contemporary US idea a lot better than having scions in one detachment and regular IG in another, because the performance gap between scions and regular IG is massive.
I would use the Warhawks as the elites of the first detachment as the more elite units, as it is again, going to be a combined arms dectrine, with at least TWO detachments, and if I play larger point games I would add a third, more likely specialised in either armor, air or mix of Air combined or Armor comined.
Basically, I plan to make it a BCT, and then the Detatchments would be the moe specialised ABCT/IBCT/SBCT. SF so on so forth, or a mix of them if need be.


No, they don't have that strip, only their feet.

That's a dumb design. Do the newer models have the plastic strip BG mentioned?
It is so you can pose them how you want them to be, how they fit and everything. The current guard besides the EASY TO ASSEMBLE ones are like that.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
No, they don't have that strip, only their feet.

Then just set them up however you like.

That's a dumb design. Do the newer models have the plastic strip BG mentioned?

No, they don't. The plastic strip is a feature of older sculpts, new ones don't use it.

I would use the Warhawks as the elites of the first detachment as the more elite units, as it is again, going to be a combined arms dectrine, with at least TWO detachments, and if I play larger point games I would add a third, more likely specialised in either armor, air or mix of Air combined or Armor comined.
Basically, I plan to make it a BCT, and then the Detatchments would be the moe specialised ABCT/IBCT/SBCT. SF so on so forth, or a mix of them if need be.

I think we might be talking past one another a bit, because you're using some real life terminology and I'm using exclusively game terminology. So it's a bit confusing for me, because, for example there's no such thing as a "combined arms doctrine" for the IG, and taking warhawks as "elites" reads as you taking them as a Veteran Squad (elite slot unit)....which is a bit iffy, as Veterans cannot deep strike nor take carapace armor, both of which Warhawks are known for doing.
 

Zachowon

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It sounds like a pain in the ass to decorate, but ok.
Then just set them up however you like.



No, they don't. The plastic strip is a feature of older sculpts, new ones don't use it.



I think we might be talking past one another a bit, because you're using some real life terminology and I'm using exclusively game terminology. So it's a bit confusing for me, because, for example there's no such thing as a "combined arms doctrine" for the IG, and taking warhawks as "elites" reads as you taking them as a Veteran Squad (elite slot unit)....which is a bit iffy, as Veterans cannot deep strike nor take carapace armor, both of which Warhawks are known for doing.
I would not take them as Veterans. They would be treated with Kaskrin/Scion rules but not be a deteatchment unto themselves.

I was using Real world terms to describe what I am trying. It would take having multiple different detachments to make my full doctrine, but I can use smaller forces. Mainly Armor with Infantry or Air with infantry kinda stuff.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
I would not take them as Veterans. They would be treated with Kaskrin/Scion rules but not be a deteatchment unto themselves.

Ok, just for reference, when you say "using scions rules", that's going to prime a lot of people to think in terms of the scions regimental doctrine, which is not what you're meaning. What you're trying to say is that you're going to take a unit of scions, but model them as warhawks, correct?

(Also, there's no such thing as Kaskrin rules. Karskin haven't had their own rules in ages, if ever, they used the same stormtrooper rules that every other army used, before stormtroopers were briefly split off into thier own army back in 7th edition and renamed scions).

I was using Real world terms to describe what I am trying. It would take having multiple different detachments to make my full doctrine, but I can use smaller forces. Mainly Armor with Infantry or Air with infantry kinda stuff.

Eh....if you just want a mix of armor, airborne, and infantry, you can do that in one unit just fine, the only thing that gets screwy is if you want to get access to the full range of scion rules and abilities.
 

Zachowon

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Ok, just for reference, when you say "using scions rules", that's going to prime a lot of people to think in terms of the scions regimental doctrine, which is not what you're meaning. What you're trying to say is that you're going to take a unit of scions, but model them as warhawks, correct?

(Also, there's no such thing as Kaskrin rules. Karskin haven't had their own rules in ages, if ever, they used the same stormtrooper rules that every other army used, before stormtroopers were briefly split off into thier own army back in 7th edition and renamed scions).



Eh....if you just want a mix of armor, airborne, and infantry, you can do that in one unit just fine, the only thing that gets screwy is if you want to get access to the full range of scion rules and abilities.
Yes that!

Basically, Scions would be the Rangers or SF to my normal Combined arms force. So I don't need them, but if I am able to bring them as their own detachment I would as a deep strike attack unit
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Yes that!

Basically, Scions would be the Rangers or SF to my normal Combined arms force. So I don't need them, but if I am able to bring them as their own detachment I would as a deep strike attack unit

Ok, and what would you be looking at for your normal infantry? The base detachment will still need some troops.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
What do you mean exactly?

You want scions as an add-on unit in their own detachment, meaning for your main detachment, you'll still need troops for it to be a legal force:

ede37c0e-9th-edition-battalion-detachment.jpg


(Technically you could run it as a spearhead or vanguard or whatever the fast attack one is, but that's not a great idea, you'll want Troops to take and hold contested objectives).
 

Zachowon

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You want scions as an add-on unit in their own detachment, meaning for your main detachment, you'll still need troops for it to be a legal force:

ede37c0e-9th-edition-battalion-detachment.jpg


(Technically you could run it as a spearhead or vanguard or whatever the fast attack one is, but that's not a great idea, you'll want Troops to take and hold contested objectives).
Oh, Majority Guardmens with a unit or two of Vets and maybe a special weapons team. Add in 2 heavyt weapons teams. Then of course a good amount of tanks chimeras, basalicks and Gotta get some flyers
 

Battlegrinder

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Oh, Majority Guardmens with a unit or two of Vets and maybe a special weapons team. Add in 2 heavyt weapons teams. Then of course a good amount of tanks chimeras, basalicks and Gotta get some flyers

Hm.....Assuming you're getting valkyries as your flyers, I'd suggest having them in the detachment with the scions, since they won't break the doctrine and scions benefit a lot from using valks as transports, including being able to safely drop out of them right into melta range if you spend the CP for a Drop Force formation.

I'd advise holding off on artillery until you play a few games and get a feel for what your list needs. Basilisks, manticores, and wyverns all have slightly different niches they excel at, you'll want to pick one that either shores up a weakness in your list or helps you focus on a strength. Or just get the manticore, because shooting giant missiles at people is always cool.

You should also consider bringing a hydra or two, if they're capable of hitting ground targets this edition, given how effective autocannons are as general purpose weapon.

As for infantry...eh, there's nothing wrong with stock IG and vets, but I'd consider running more scions instead. You want this army to be represented of US military forces, and I'm fairly sure there isn't the sort of massive gap between the equipment of special forces and line units in the US army that there is in the IG.

Heavy weapons teams....I'm not totally sold on. When I played guard I never used them, instead relying on vehicle mounted weapons, as IMO heavy weapon teams attached to infantry were moving too often to fire accurately, and HWTs as thier own units got shredded by anti-infantry fire (unless they had mortars, but I think mortars got a major price hike a while ago). They're not exactly a bad option, but I think you have a lot of better ones.
 

Zachowon

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Hm.....Assuming you're getting valkyries as your flyers, I'd suggest having them in the detachment with the scions, since they won't break the doctrine and scions benefit a lot from using valks as transports, including being able to safely drop out of them right into melta range if you spend the CP for a Drop Force formation.

I'd advise holding off on artillery until you play a few games and get a feel for what your list needs. Basilisks, manticores, and wyverns all have slightly different niches they excel at, you'll want to pick one that either shores up a weakness in your list or helps you focus on a strength. Or just get the manticore, because shooting giant missiles at people is always cool.

You should also consider bringing a hydra or two, if they're capable of hitting ground targets this edition, given how effective autocannons are as general purpose weapon.

As for infantry...eh, there's nothing wrong with stock IG and vets, but I'd consider running more scions instead. You want this army to be represented of US military forces, and I'm fairly sure there isn't the sort of massive gap between the equipment of special forces and line units in the US army that there is in the IG.

Heavy weapons teams....I'm not totally sold on. When I played guard I never used them, instead relying on vehicle mounted weapons, as IMO heavy weapon teams attached to infantry were moving too often to fire accurately, and HWTs as thier own units got shredded by anti-infantry fire (unless they had mortars, but I think mortars got a major price hike a while ago). They're not exactly a bad option, but I think you have a lot of better ones.
The Special Forces in the US get better everything except tanks. Cause they don't use armor.

I maye get rid of them for more vehicles then.

I have a basilisk to help long range fire against any melee enemies that may try to get close, and long range that try to stay away from my main weapons. I have a two of them.

I am using stock IG to allow for more
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
The Special Forces in the US get better everything except tanks. Cause they don't use armor.

To my knowledge there's only a marginal difference between Special forces equipment and standard issue. It's better, yes, but it is still just a better version of the same gear.

That is not how Scion are equipped compared to standard IG, there is a huge gap between them. Scions have body armor that's can withstand bolter fire, guardsman do not. Hellguns can somewhat easily pierce power armor, lasguns cannot.

I maye get rid of them for more vehicles then.

Get rid of what?

I have a basilisk to help long range fire against any melee enemies that may try to get close, and long range that try to stay away from my main weapons. I have a two of them.

Ah. Yeah, if you've already got basilisk then use them, I was assuming this was in the context of building an army from scratch. What models do you currently have?

I am using stock IG to allow for more

Hm. That's a fair idea, but I'm not sure how it fits with your goal of making an army that is analogous to the modern US army. I'm obviously not as familiar with how the army is organized, but my impression is that the US does not place a huge degree of focus on fielding more troops and instead wants to deploy better ones.

I think this might be a good time to really pin down your goal and how much you want to focus on the army's theme vs the army's effectiveness on the tabletop. For example, I have a plan to build an all battlesuit Tau list next year. I'm willing to optimize within that list, pick the most effect suits for a given role, etc, but I will not budge from the core goal of "all battlesuits".

How much flex are you thinking is reasonable for this list going forward.
 

Zachowon

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To my knowledge there's only a marginal difference between Special forces equipment and standard issue. It's better, yes, but it is still just a better version of the same gear.

That is not how Scion are equipped compared to standard IG, there is a huge gap between them. Scions have body armor that's can withstand bolter fire, guardsman do not. Hellguns can somewhat easily pierce power armor, lasguns cannot.



Get rid of what?



Ah. Yeah, if you've already got basilisk then use them, I was assuming this was in the context of building an army from scratch. What models do you currently have?



Hm. That's a fair idea, but I'm not sure how it fits with your goal of making an army that is analogous to the modern US army. I'm obviously not as familiar with how the army is organized, but my impression is that the US does not place a huge degree of focus on fielding more troops and instead wants to deploy better ones.

I think this might be a good time to really pin down your goal and how much you want to focus on the army's theme vs the army's effectiveness on the tabletop. For example, I have a plan to build an all battlesuit Tau list next year. I'm willing to optimize within that list, pick the most effect suits for a given role, etc, but I will not budge from the core goal of "all battlesuits".

How much flex are you thinking is reasonable for this list going forward.
I gave a list awhile ago of what all I had.
Last I remember as they are back in the states (I will give a better idea come Wednesday of next week when I am home) I had 2 or 3 squad of standard guardmen. 2 russ, 2 or 3 chimeras. 2 basilisks. a HQ unit. three HWT, a squad of Scions, an HQ for the Scions, a Taurx Prime. Give or take a squad of guardmen and scions
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
After all this discussion with Zach, I decided to do a little listbuilding to see what I could come up with for an IG list:

Battalion:
3x Tank commanders with battlecannon, heavy bolter
3 squads of scions with a volley gun and grenade launcher
3 chimeras with heavy bolters
2 manticores
Aux support detachment: Tempestor Prime


Patrol - Tempestus Drop Force
1 Tempestor Prime
2 valkeries with rocket pods
2 squads of scions, one with volley guns and one with meltas


It's definitely a sub-par list, I've only got one guy that can give orders to the scions in the Battalion detachment, because I wasn't willing to take fewer tank commanders (I've been playing marines for too long for a BS 4 tank to be acceptable). But it should be OK, I've got a decent mix of anti armor and anti-infantry firepower in the main force, and the drop force has enough punch that I can drop it off anywhere and have them be able to pick off high value targets.

Plus, it fufills the most important goal of all, namely that's it's cheap. I already have nearly all of these units, I'll just need one more chimera, the manticores, and maybe a few more infantrymen here and there, and I then have the whole force.

Also, it's a very small force as far as infantry goes, just 52 men. Far more manageable than a more conventional, horde-ish IG force, both in terms of moving them around on the tabletop and, far more importantly, in terms of painting them all.


Not sure if I'll actually collect the missing units and start building this, or tinker around with it a bit more. The on big gap in the list is AA, which I think is alright because no one in my local meta regularly uses aircraft, but just in case that changes I might buy two different looking manticores/manticore proxies, so that I can later run one as a hydra or a wyvern or something if needed.
 
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Battlegrinder

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Obozny
So, speaking of that all Battlesuit list, I dusted it off and updated it for 9th edition. Any feedback or comments? I've never played tau so I'm not sure how to get the best out of these units.


++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (T'au Empire) [103 PL, 14CP, 1,999pts] ++
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Sept Choice:
Show Sept Tenets rule, Vior'la Sept

+ Stratagems +

Emergency Dispensation (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Commander in XV8 Crisis Battlesuit [8 PL, 176pts]:
Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster, Shield generator, XV8-02 Crisis Iridium battlesuit
. MV4 Shield Drone
. MV7 Marker Drone

Commander in XV85 Enforcer Battlesuit [8 PL, 176pts]: 2. Through Unity, Devastation, Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster, Shield generator, Warlord
. MV4 Shield Drone
. MV7 Marker Drone

+ Elites +

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [21 PL, 455pts]

. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster
. Crisis Shas'vre: Advanced targeting system, 2x Cyclic ion blaster
. 5x MV4 Shield Drone: 5x Shield generator
. 5x MV7 Marker Drone: 5x Markerlight

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits [31 PL, 497pts]: Gatling burst cannon
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Burst cannon
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Burst cannon
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Burst cannon
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Burst cannon
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Burst cannon
. Crisis Shas'ui: Advanced targeting system, 2x Burst cannon
. Crisis Shas'vre: Advanced targeting system, 2x Burst cannon
. 7x MV4 Shield Drone: 7x Shield generator
. 7x MV7 Marker Drone: 7x Markerlight

XV9 Hazard Battlesuits [15 PL, 270pts]
. 3x MV4 Shield Drone: 3x Shield generator
. 3x MV7 Marker Drone: 3x Markerlight
. XV9 Hazard Battlesuit: Advanced targeting system, 2x Phased ion gun
. XV9 Hazard Battlesuit: Advanced targeting system, 2x Phased ion gun
. XV9 Hazard Battlesuit: Advanced targeting system, 2x Phased ion gun

+ Fast Attack +

Tactical Drones [2 PL, 80pts]

. 4x MV4 Shield Drone: 4x Shield generator

+ Heavy Support +

XV88 Broadside Battlesuits [18 PL, 345pts]:
Magna rail rifle
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x Plasma rifle, Heavy rail rifle, Seeker missile, Shield generator
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x Plasma rifle, Heavy rail rifle, Seeker missile, Shield generator
. Broadside Shas'vre: 2x Plasma rifle, Heavy rail rifle, Seeker missile, Shield generator
. 6x MV4 Shield Drone: 6x Shield generator

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (T'au Empire) [50 PL, -3CP, 1,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ Lord of War +

KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour [50 PL, 1,000pts]:
2x Tri-axis ion cannon, 3x Pulse ordnance multi-driver

++ Total: [153 PL, 11CP, 2,999pts] ++
 

Urabrask Revealed

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Man, I need to buy new acryl-based colors for my figures, and figured that Gee-Dubs' prices are too high. But I don't know if they have any special properties, or if any acryl colors will do, like these or those.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Man, I need to buy new acryl-based colors for my figures, and figured that Gee-Dubs' prices are too high. But I don't know if they have any special properties, or if any acryl colors will do, like these or those.

GW paints are above average price, but I wouldn't say they're too high. As for the paints themselves, there's nothing special about them (aside from some of the technical paints and contrast), aside from the fact that if you're going by one of GW's "how to paint" video's or using the citadel paint app, it will only reference GW paints and the specific shades and colors of those paints.
 

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