Philosophy Was the West admitting wrong doing with Slavery and Colonialism the source of its current issues? by tiredfromlife2019

Bassoe

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source
As stated in the title, do you think admitting wrong doing with Slavery and Colonialism the source of its current issues such as the White Guilt and inability to do anything to defend itself less one get called bad names?

Here is my position.

Societies for a long time preached narratives about their history, their founders, etc. That from a liberal perspective are absolutely heinous but from the perspective of a local of said society and believes in it see's something to be proud of, to be filled with glory and need to live up to it.

The Left and the Liberal said that this is wrong and propaganda and we should care about truth and what did they do? Deconstruct and make you hate your own people or nations history. We thought that this was cause we need to realize the truth and do better but now we can see that they did this not cause we need the truth. No. It's a tool to destroy.

Let me post something for you.

From wikipedia:
Taner Akcam has written the following:[33]

In Turkish discourse, the following argument is commonly heard: "If we accept the Genocide, then the claim for reparations will soon follow." It shows that the main fear is not what we should call the event, but what comes after the event.

According to Fatma Müge Göçek, many Turkish journalists have viewed the issue of recognition as "an imposition on the Turkish state and society, one that would solely benefit the Armenians". In one editorial a Turkish journalist wrote "If you once acknowledge, then see what will happen next? From demands for restitution to land...".[34]

Turkey see's what has happened to the West. The endless crying about slavery and colonialism like it's a fucking original sin.

They never stop bringing up shit from centuries to thousands of years ago. Why? Cause they know that under the liberal paradigm that this stuff is bad you have to agree to what they say and shut up. It's justice after all. And you don't want to be like those terrible monster ancestors do you?

They use this to demoralize you or your kids. To make you hate your country and history.

They will even do propaganda but they of course don't call it that to push this.

or to put it another way

Denying the Armenian Genocide is done cause of the general trends of recognized atrocities never being forgiven as inherited blame making it so such recognition amounts to nothing but a perpetual bone-anchor

As we see in the West with this example:

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But what say you?
Thoughts?
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
Bread and circuses. The elite stir up hatred among the populace to distract them from their problems, nothing new. "Oh look! The Japanese did these things to your country long before you were even born! That's why you are wage slaves today! Don't look at us! Look at them!". In the case of Antifa and BLM, the US elites and media also pushes for them to try to justify imposing their diversity hire laws and to destroy the cultural artifacts of their enemies.
 

Free-Stater 101

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I am of the opinion you can only say sorry for the deeds of others once in genuine apology, anything demanded after that is nothing more than demanded pandering. I am sorry for slavery but I feel no need to repeatedly apologize or bend over backwards because of an institution that vanished over a hundred and fifty years ago.

As for Japan they don't get flack for 'not apologizing' repeatedly so much as they continually try to play down their actions and repeatedly shown those apologies to be empty.

Japan's refusal to acknowledge its war guilt and atrocities

A vast majority in Japan are convinced that warcrimes either didn't happen or downplay them as much as they can.

Say what you want but I have never denied African Americans didn't suffer because of segregation or slavery, just repeated demands to get me to bend over backwards in recompense for the issue.
 

Marduk

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It is quite a bit more complicated than that, but it does contain some sliver of a point.
Regarding this issue of recognizing past bad stuff(tm), the world is basically divided into 4 groups in regard to specific events:
-The victim
-The culprit
-The PC world
-The rest of the world

The victims naturally will want recognition and reparations, and will take any support they can get. If they still have more or less reasonable beef with the culprit, they will make sure it lasts and gets weaponized into an advantage in current and future conflicts.

The PC world is third party countries who according to their liberal-ish progressive ideology and culture require the described "proper" reaction to the situation and will change their opinion depending on whether it is present.

The rest of the world, well, that can go any way depending on their specific political, economic and cultural relations with all these 3 parties.

So what should the culprit do? If they need good opinion of the progressive world, they may need to go along. But even then the pressure is not necessarily very strong, as Japan proves. Nevermind the Islamic world getting all the simping of the progressuve ideologues they could wish for despite their quite unPC history and total lack of remorse over it. Pretty common point of how extreme the progressives castigation of US slavery almost 2 centuries ago is, yet fresher, larger scale, and by all objective measures worse kind of slavery in the Islamic world (there is a reason why they don't have descendants of their many black slaves to even receive any hypothetical reparations) gets barely a peep. So it has a lot to do with political cultural biases of the "liberal" ideologues themselves.
The total SOL situations happen when the culprit country has its very own population and elites be major proponents of the of the troublesome worldview. Then they obviously cannot isolate themselves from that movement and tell them to fuck off, so that's where the biggest danger lies.
Hence, Turkey's real objective here should be to prevent the spread and acceptance of this worldview in their own population. And if they have to claim this as a requirement of patriotic self-interest, it sure works as long as they have that (and if they do accept this worldview, they are going to lose a most of that sentiment anyway so what the hell).
Nevermind that for them its not just a matter of Armenians, if they waver they will have even more relevant in current day practical terms Kurds claiming that hey, they are being oppressed too, and right now, not in distant history.

So close, the real mistake here is to allow the wide spread of an ideology among own population who, in the name of their pretty radical and irrational vision of justice, in a conflict of interest between own country and some foreign group don't side with their own, not even try to balance the wages or set up deals to bury past conflicts for pragmatic reasons, they outright are more concerned about well being of certain types of foreign groups, in some cases outright hostile and malicious ones even (who in turn may realize it and try to directly exploit such a fifth column for own advantage), than that of their own country and compatriots.

As for Japan, on top of that they have the issue that one of the claimants is a strategic rival past, current and future who would do to them the same and worse if they could and would not think of apologizing afterwards.
 
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Free-Stater 101

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Absolutely not.

Never apologize for something that you had no responsibility for.

Don't cede ANY ground in this, or YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE by those you apologize to.
??? I never apologize in the sense to imply it's my fault more along the lines of "What happened to you suck you have my apologies and sympathies"

And even then it's not a greeting to all I meet only when the topic is broached is it mentioned.

It's not implying I did anythingI did so much as accepting something awful happend and agreeing to turn over a new leaf from my ancestors actions and from there we will move on.

I don't allow others to guilt trip me on my ancestors actions they arent my fault.
 

Marduk

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??? I never apologize in the sense to imply it's my fault more along the lines of "What happened to you suck you have my apologies and sympathies"

And even then it's not a greeting to all I meet only when the topic is broached is it mentioned.

It's not implying I did anythingI did so much as accepting something awful happend and agreeing to turn over a new leaf from my ancestors actions and from there we will move on.

I don't allow others to guilt trip me on my ancestors actions they arent my fault.
The problem is that hardly anyone is particularly interested in seeing just a mere guarded apology, and especially those most interested in pushing these demands for apology.
Most of the parties involved in such pushes want much further going reactions, reparations, favors, concessions, with significant real world effects.
 

Cherico

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I completely get it, we can all agree that slavery shouldn't be a thing. It's definitely a black spot on our country.

However, no one alive now, has been injured by lawfully accepted slavery in the US.

So...why do you believe that it has directly harmed ANYONE you have spoken with?
Slavery has been straight up illegal in America for over a 150 years. The last man who was a slave died during the 1970s.

You know what black people are being enslaved by gulf coast Arab countries right now so why are we catching heat for shit that's a over a century in the past while current slave owners get a free pass?
 

Marduk

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Because most run from the accusation instead of confronting their accusers with their own idiocy.
Even then, they would try again, doesn't cost much.
The problem is that the accusers have a small but over last decades rising realistic chance of receiving significant material benefits out of this activity. As long as there isn't a true drought of return on such investments of effort, people will keep trying.
 

CockyVampire67

Climate change denier
Slavery has been straight up illegal in America for over a 150 years. The last man who was a slave died during the 1970s.

You know what black people are being enslaved by gulf coast Arab countries right now so why are we catching heat for shit that's a over a century in the past while current slave owners get a free pass?

Well US do have a positive relationship with some arab countries that practise that. I like to think that everything has it's reasons.
 

TheRejectionist

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Well US do have a positive relationship with some arab countries that practise that. I like to think that everything has it's reasons.

TLDR is summarized by the "Bismarckian" word of Realpolitik. They are useful (or were ?) so the USA (and their puppets in Europe) conveniently forget about the human rights violations.
 

CockyVampire67

Climate change denier
TLDR is summarized by the "Bismarckian" word of Realpolitik. They are useful (or were ?) so the USA (and their puppets in Europe) conveniently forget about the human rights violations.
Yeah, last time i heard some quaker tried to disarm Saudi Arabias jet in Britain. Didn't end well. They're still selling those. How they say? Money don't stink
 

Marduk

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Yeah, last time i heard some quaker tried to disarm Saudi Arabias jet in Britain. Didn't end well. They're still selling those. How they say? Money don't stink
There is also the "didn't think it through" aspect.
If Britain, or even all western countries accepted that argument and didn't sell Saudis any weapons, what would they do?
Become pacifist? Of course not, they would go shopping in Russia and China instead.
Not only they would be about as good at doing whatever they are doing, but the west's other also not very nice enemies would also get richer in the process.
Much smort, super effective, pacifism clever.
 

ATP

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There is also the "didn't think it through" aspect.
If Britain, or even all western countries accepted that argument and didn't sell Saudis any weapons, what would they do?
Become pacifist? Of course not, they would go shopping in Russia and China instead.
Not only they would be about as good at doing whatever they are doing, but the west's other also not very nice enemies would also get richer in the process.
Much smort, super effective, pacifism clever.

In short term - efficient.In long term,you are helped incopetent monsters and your weapons get to China/Russia ,becouse they either sell it to them,or lost.
Saudis are enemies of our cyvilisation,supporting them in any way hurt us long term.
 

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