Battletech Welcome to the Jungle

Blasterbot

Well-known member
There is also the question on if they would divert 270 production away from the Phoenix Hawk. Despite its flaws its a great medium mech and scout hunter
other than expense what would you say it's flaws are from the perspective of a scout mech?
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
of course with the newly found tech CMW is going to need to upgrade the design anyways so might as well replace the MGs.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
huh they stuck the ammo in the CT... on the one hand you will die if it blows. on the other it is technically the most armored and protected part so I can see some logic behind putting it there since if it blows in either torso it would still kill you. while MGs are negligible damage they are extra damage for crit seeking for no added heat and are still anti infantry weapons. a flamer + heatsink would be more survivable and allow you to add in a medium laser with the large more consistently. I think it would be slightly inferior for anti infantry purposes though. if only because you are more likely to get a hit and weaken the unit with 2 rolls.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
Hunting infantry with a Pixie is a waste of a mech at least until all bugs have been pushed from inventory and by the time CASE will probably be in production. In fact by that time they will probably be being used against people whose infantry have 11 HP so the machineguns would be pretty much useless anyways.

I would not suggest flamers as an anti-infantry weapon. Either you consider burning infantry alive a warcrime and can't use them in that role or you don't and inferno SRMs have three times the range, which means you don't have to place yourself within range of the infantry's own rifles to use them.

on the one hand you will die if it blows.
That's always the true of un-CASEd ammo explosions in tabletop BT. The problem with putting it in the CT is that snake eye crits hit a specific torso segment based on facing. If you use the floating crits optional rule the center torso is one of the two best places to put ammo. The other is the head because it's unlikely to be hit at all except by melee attacks.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
I will agree that you don't want the Pixie hunting infantry usually. I will say that if it is the only mech you got with anti infantry capabilities then that is prolly what it is gonna have to do at some point. I also think that if playing combined arms you probably want at least one mech that is equipped to handle the infantry tarpits. I agree on the infernos. If I got the option I will take them.
 

Satorious

Active member
other than expense what would you say it's flaws are from the perspective of a scout mech?
The expense is part of it, but heat management, the ammo bomb, and thin head armor also play a part. A normal ac10 will headshot a phoenix hawkfrom full. Now I do think the phoenix hawk is one of the better intro tech mediums but its also one of the mechs to suffer the most from wanting lostech. If you add doubles and spl it gets much better. Now as a light killer its great as a scout its expensive but serviceable.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
The expense is part of it, but heat management, the ammo bomb, and thin head armor also play a part. A normal ac10 will headshot a phoenix hawkfrom full. Now I do think the phoenix hawk is one of the better intro tech mediums but its also one of the mechs to suffer the most from wanting lostech. If you add doubles and spl it gets much better. Now as a light killer its great as a scout its expensive but serviceable.
to be fair in this story I imagine CMW is probably working bloody hard to use the new tech and put it into production in the phoneix hawk among other mechs it mechs it makes/used to make and wants to bring back. also probably about to ask about that commando variant Weber and company have the specs for since it would save them a lot of R&D costs.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
I will agree that you don't want the Pixie hunting infantry usually. I will say that if it is the only mech you got with anti infantry capabilities then that is prolly what it is gonna have to do at some point. I also think that if playing combined arms you probably want at least one mech that is equipped to handle the infantry tarpits. I agree on the infernos. If I got the option I will take them.

Depends on if you're playing combined arms or writing combined arms. A force with a high enough minimum speed can bypass infantry in the field if there's no map edge and no need to be done with the scenario by the time the store closes. And infantry in buildings does not take burst weapon bonus damage so in cities you need to either use artillery to level the whole block or fight infantry with infantry.

The expense is part of it, but heat management, the ammo bomb, and thin head armor also play a part. A normal ac10 will headshot a phoenix hawkfrom full. Now I do think the phoenix hawk is one of the better intro tech mediums but its also one of the mechs to suffer the most from wanting lostech. If you add doubles and spl it gets much better. Now as a light killer its great as a scout its expensive but serviceable.

It doesn't need advanced tech to fix. It just needs to decide what its role is. If it's a scout hunter it isn't going to face AC-10s. No one has a scout mech that fits an AC-10 and hover hunters are a different design requirement. The CDA-3C has a PPC, but it also has 4 tons of armor and the kiss of death of bad quirks. If it's a skirmisher for harassing slow mechs with no or very limited long range weapons it doesn't need both medium lasers. If it's supposed to get behind an enemy and break rear armor it doesn't need the large laser. The only reason it had inadequate armor or heat issues by introtech standards is that it can't make up its mind. The PHX-1D fixes the heat issues quite well, but it still is a little schizo on preferred engagement range and this prevents it from fixing the head and leg armor. The torso armor was always fine.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
I get the large laser. it provides a bit of punch as the smallest big gun. it lets you out range or get superior range brackets on MLs and other short range guns. you could probably get on that fires 5 or so MLs instead I suppose but that large laser is a big threat to the scout mechs it would be compared to. you can't constantly alpha but if you got some fire discipline you can get some good work out of it. a large laser if you walk or run and the 2 MLs when you get them into mid range and occasionally the 2 MGs for if the enemies have some open locations to crit and you can get in close enough. anti infantry capabilities are just a neat bonus to keep in mind. is it perfect no. is it a good design yes especially by the standards of introtech where some mechs got made badly on purpose or because they didn't fully understand the system they built.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
Is this a request for a Coventry Metal Works Interlude? I think this is a request for a Coventry Metal Works Interlude.
2nded seeing them debate what to do to upgrade the hawk would be fun. the debate on the XLFE alone would be good to see. on a faster mech like that you are gonna get a better return but that expense is high. they might also come up with a cheaper refit kit based around FF and DHS and sticking with introtech for the rest.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
Is this a request for a Coventry Metal Works Interlude? I think this is a request for a Coventry Metal Works Interlude.
Well they do also make 3 mechs that Weber and company have the literal blueprints and the like on how to make a upgraded variants for in the form of the wasp, Stinger, and Commando which would give the CAC much needed cash and favors and save CMW a lot of R@D and critically time, plus their other designs will greatly benefit from the tech from the catchan core. Hell in theory they could go make a gauss hunchback. Or a LBX-10 one. Or both
 
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PeaceMaker 03

Well-known member
Is this a request for a Coventry Metal Works Interlude? I think this is a request for a Coventry Metal Works Interlude.

Anything BT that you write is requested.

Even if CAC does not build it, maybe have the engineers look at the production capacity and see what kind of upgrade packages can be put together for other iconic Steiner mechs.
...... Even if it is just DHS for mechs that can benefit from it. Maybe upgrade T&T package with a nerohelmet to take advantage of it.
Mechs like Zeus, Warhammer, MAD, Archer, Crusader, Griffin, and P-Hawk.

Evan the Banshee 3E which is not a great Assult mech can be upgraded, with just replace single heat sinks add 11 DHS add 4 Medium Lasers and a flamer. Now the CAC Banshee 3E becomes a nightmare in the stories time period.

Better to have the upgrade package contain all the parts and detailed instructions and necessary adjustments to do the upgrade. CAC can become the Chiltons of Battlemech lostech upgrades.
Name the upgrade company after that tech who created the documents for all the Catchan cache.

Edited to suggest upgrade packages.
 
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Interlude 4-CMW

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Interlude 4-CMW​

Port St. William, Veracruz, Coventry, Coventry System,
Coventry Province, Protectorate of Donegal, Lyran Commonwealth
March 12th, 3016

Simon Grantrel quietly cursed the distance between Coventry and its jump point. Twelve days had never seemed quite so long as it did on this trip. Especially since the LIC agents wouldn’t let him transmit anything about the gift he’d been given.

Fortunately, they had at least let him call ahead to have the vital elements of his workforce assembled and waiting in CMW’s Sensitive Compartmented Information Facility when he landed.

So, when he strode into the SCIF underneath Port St. William, it was to find his best engineers and planners waiting for him.

“Gentlemen, Ladies, we have a great deal of work ahead of us. There’s a race on and we’re still at the starting gate while the leaders are rounding the second curve.”

That startled everyone in the room, but not as much as seeing the data core come out of its secure case. It was almost fascinating to see the range of responses. Some cheered or laughed, some tried to remain stoic only to have tears escape despite them. A couple simply shed unabashed tears. It would have been fascinating if it wasn’t delaying work vital to helping restore CMW’s good name. After a long minute getting things back under control, he was finally able to proceed.

“As I said, there’s a race on with Olivetti and a new startup, the Catachan Arms Company, both having Battlemechs with advanced technology in at least limited production.” He gave that a moment to sink in before proceeding.

“The good news is that we have a big advantage to help us get caught up. There’s data on that core for both a variant of the Wasp and the Commando. Sorry, Alys, but it looks like we’re not going to be making the -1B for very long,” he added in as an aside.

“Again, though, good news. The Commando variant,” he gestured and a hologram in the middle of the table came to life, showing the schematics that the core called the COM-1R, “incorporates an ER laser, so your experience should definitely app-.”

“Holy shit, is that engine rating correct? It’s half again the size of the one we use now!” The aforementioned engineer interrupted with an appalled expression.

“It is, because it’s an extralight engine. It’s actually half a ton lighter than the General Motors 150 we already use.”

That brought the whole room to a pause. Even as a business manager, Simon found that astounding. It seemingly blew the engineers’ minds, and there was a susurrus of muttering and invective.

“Of course, the added engine power means that a more robust gyro is needed, so it actually costs a half-ton overall, but it’s still a phenomenal improvement. It also trades the SRM launcher and ammunition for a second 5cm laser. Thanks to Star League era double heat sinks it can afford the extra heat. The remaining half-ton is added to the armor load, which is upgraded to Ferro-fibrous plate.”

“According to this, that’s the equivalent of an extra ton of conventional armor,” Alys again pointed out, shaking her head, red hair dyed with black stripes bobbed with the motion.

“Best of all, the design has already been tested in combat. The Archon provided reports of a trio of engagements on Sevren where the -1R engaged Combine forces. Two are unquestionably victories. In the third, they were ambushed at short range by a Combine force. As you might expect, they took some hard hits, but even in an unfavorable situation they did a lot of damage in return and, despite being the primary targets, none of them were taken down. Take a look.”

With that the first of a series of Battle ROMs began to play, letting the engineers see how the machine they would be building in the coming years handled live combat. It was the sort of advantage that they very seldom enjoyed; with approval, Simon observed a great deal of notes were being made.

Even though the battles were all relatively short, there were multiple viewpoints and each needed to be watched several times to go over what was there and ensure that everything was being understood and processed. Despite the number of times he’d already watched the same ROMs during transit, even Simon found that his engineers were pointing out things he hadn’t noticed.

The meeting had started well after noon, courtesy of his arrival time, and it was now heading on to evening. With that in mind, he refocused the group after the most recent replay.

“Alright, I think we’ve got a good understanding of where we’re going with the Commando, but before I send you home, I do want to at least summarize the plan for the rest of the tasks we’ll be undertaking in the next decade or so.

“Effectively, there are three stages to producing advanced technology. The first stage is managing to make foamed metal. Some of you may be familiar with attempts to reproduce Endosteel during the Second Succession War. The reason why those failed is because you absolutely have to make it in microgravity.

“So first, we need to build up the orbital metallurgy capabilities to actually produce foamed metal alloys. Second, we need to begin building lines to actually make use of the foamed metal components. Some of this also needs to be done in microgravity, notably Ferro-fibrous armor and double-capacity heat sinks. The final step is going to be getting XL Fusion Engine production up to speeds.

“That’s actually going to be an ongoing process throughout the project, because everything we have indicates that XL engines are hard to make. Precision down to miniscule fractions of a millimeter can make the difference between a working engine and an explosion. And I think we need to plan for multiple XLFEs. If we can’t be first to produce Star League quality systems, we need to produce more of them than anyone else. And make no mistake, ladies and gentlemen, we do have that capability. We’re the oldest BattleMech producer in the Commonwealth. Let’s show these Johnny-come-latelys what we’re made of!”

There were a few cheers, a lot of smiles, and some clapping.

“Now get out of here and come back tomorrow ready to dig into the data on the Wasp.”

XXXXX​

Port St. William, Veracruz, Coventry, Coventry System,
Coventry Province, Protectorate of Donegal, Lyran Commonwealth
March 29th, 3016

“So we’re in agreement on the Stinger alterations, then?” Alys Gill inquired, eyes sweeping over the assembled engineers. Like any good question, she already knew the answer before she asked it, and her engineering staff nodded, muttered agreement, and in one case shot her a thumbs up.

“Good,” she stated with a nod of the head, “but remember, that was the easy part.” The Stinger and the Wasp were effectively twins. Figuring out how to translate modifications from one to the other was downright simple by any measure, especially with full blueprints and notations. Gyro calculations would take a few months, but that was grunt work, not something that needed her attention.

“Now we’re on to the fun part of the job,” she said and advanced her presentation. The next hologram displayed was perhaps CMW’s biggest ticket product.

“The PXH-1 is a design that hasn’t been changed in centuries because it does what it is designed to do, and does it well. Of course, the information on the data core changes things. Our job is to usher the Phoenix Hawk into the modern era without changing it so much that it’s no longer recognizable as the Pixie our customers know and love.

“First thing first: role. The PXH-1 is currently utilized as a Lance leader for Light ‘Mechs or an inbuilt scouting element for Medium companies. According to Count Grantrel, that’s the niche we’re still looking to fill with the new variant we’ll be building.”

She paused there for a moment, then offered another option.

“On the other hand, all of this is notional. If anyone has a genius idea for something better, feel free to offer it and I’ll take it to the Count for his consideration.”

Making eye contact with several members of the group, she gave some time for any such offer. Just as she expected there were no takers, but the appearance of being open to suggestions was important to maintain.

“Then we’ll proceed under those conditions.” Again, she advanced the presentation.

“Which brings us to the one machine we know we can expect to be working in tandem with in the Medium weight bracket.” The hologram displayed one of the other designs on the core, an old Rim Worlds machine given new life.

“This is the PX-4S Phoenix; it’s five tons heavier than our existing Phoenix Hawk with an identical movement profile. It mounts a PPC, an array of lasers, and a stupendous amount of armor for its size. The equivalent of ten and a half tons of Bar-10, more protection than a Warhammer on a ‘Mech twenty tons lighter.

“Now, what stands out to anyone about that?”

“If our Pixie is going to be scouting for it, we need to be faster than it is, which means we need to up-engine the refit. Definitely means we need to use an XLFE,” Dr Fern replied.

“Correct. The question then becomes do we want to use a 315 or a 360-rated engine? Either would theoretically be in keeping with our instructions,” she once again led the conversation.

“Either way, we’d be eating the cost for a larger, more powerful gyro,” Antonov offered.

“What’s the difference in weight and mass?” Dr Fern inquired.

“I’d actually run the numbers on this. The scaling is quite punishing. The 315 should be somewhere in the neighborhood of eleven tons, but the 360 should be somewhere in the neighborhood of sixteen and a half or seventeen,” Stevenson answered, all but chewing on his mustache.

“And the existing General Motors 270 is fourteen and a half tons,” Alys reminded. “Add a ton for the gyro and another half ton for a seventh jump jet and the 315 is more or less back where we started. The 360, though, would put us at eighteen and a half, maybe nineteen tons. Even with optimistic numbers for an Endosteel skeleton, that eats the entire weight savings and then some.”

“Leaving the only option to either strip armor or weapons. Even if we can shoehorn Ferro-fibrous armor onto the chassis, that’s still a reduction in protection or firepower. I suppose we could strip the machine guns?” Dr Fern suggested. As expected he was the largest proponent of a faster design.

“And leave no anti-infantry weapons on the chassis at all? When half her duties amount to scouting? That leaves her awfully vulnerable to infantry ambushes,” Antonov immediately asked, playing Devil’s Advocate as usual.

She let the team argue for several minutes, but the tone was set.

“I feel that at this point the feeling that a 360 would be too far into diminishing returns has fairly broad agreement,” she stated, then drew a line through the 360XL option on the whiteboard beside her.

“With that decided, our next order of business is what weight-saving technologies we want to employ to further our mass budget. I think we can all agree that double-capacity heat sinks are a must with seven jump jets, no?”

There was broad agreement that the improved heat management system was an absolute requirement if a worthwhile armament was to be employed. It was added to the whiteboard underneath the 315 XLFE.

"Now, according to the math I’ve seen from the Phoenix and the Galahad, there’s simply not enough room for both Endosteel and Ferro-Fibrous armor on a ‘Mech, correct?”

“Olivetti reportedly managed to replace the limbs’ structure while maintaining Ferro armor, but that only saves a fraction of the weight a full replacement would offer,” Antonov shot back.

“Frankly, we’re going to need to do a full redesign of the torso anyway in order to fit that big-ass engine. We might as well go whole hog and get the best possible weight savings,” Stevenson suggested.

Put that way, there was no real dissent, and they had years to optimize the design. Endosteel joined the other two options on the whiteboard.

“Now the part I expect to take several months to iron out fully. Weapons and armor load,” Alys said, provoking laughter from her subordinates.

“Naturally, I shall be making use of my position to advance my own opinion first,” she stated entirely seriously, but in a joking tone.

“Since an 8cm laser paired with 5cm lasers is one of the more identifiable features of the Phoenix Hawk, and we’re already going to be making oodles of them anyway to stick on Commandos, I propose that we mount an extended range 8cm laser as the primary weapon on the new variant. Not only will it save the cost and expense of developing and producing ERPPCs, but it will simplify logistics and preserve existing branding.

“Also, since we’re going to be having enough trouble with fitting everything into the torso that absolutely has to go there, I propose removing the machine guns and their ammo and replacing them with flamers. With double-capacity heat sinks, we should have the ability to compensate for the additional heat burden. Removing the ammunition feeds as well as the magazine will save cubage in the torso while also removing the risk of an ammunition explosion coring out the ‘Mech and ruining the absurdly expensive Fusion Engine we’re going to be putting into it. If my math is right, we can even afford to double the number of 5cm lasers while maintaining the ability to cool and add a ton or so of armor as a cherry on top.”

Immediately her proposal was subject to critique, Antonov leading the charge as perpetual autonegator. Still, she had a sense for the way the wind was blowing and thought the bones of her proposal were extremely solid from both a financial and engineering standpoint.

If she couldn’t revolutionize the Commando, well the Phoenix Hawk was a step up anyway. Besides, even if the board decided to continue partial production of the existing PHX-1 for sale to militias and mercenaries, that still left a surplus of 270-rated fusion engines, and the rebirth of an old design had gotten her thinking. Maybe it was time Coventry Metal Works took some inspiration from the Coventry Defense Conglomerate and looked into producing some heavier metal?
 

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